![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 6, 2011, at 11:35:19
Hi all,
Does anyone know where I can find any information about how/why fish oil is psychoactive? Or even just some studies demonstrating that it is so? Any info connecting it to insomnia would be useful, too (i.e. papers, studies, official-looking stuff).
Thanks very much,
psychbot
Posted by jedi on May 6, 2011, at 21:58:42
In reply to fish oil studies?, posted by psychobot5000 on May 6, 2011, at 11:35:19
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone know where I can find any information about how/why fish oil is psychoactive? Or even just some studies demonstrating that it is so? Any info connecting it to insomnia would be useful, too (i.e. papers, studies, official-looking stuff).
>
> Thanks very much,
> psychbothttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=omega3%20depression
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=omega3%20depression
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1476-511x-3-25.pdf
Jedi
Posted by desolationrower on May 7, 2011, at 6:45:21
In reply to Re: fish oil studies? » psychobot5000, posted by jedi on May 6, 2011, at 21:58:42
Well if you put that into scholar.google.com you will have a lifetime's worth of reading. Checking the citations on wikipaedia or other well-referenced writeups is also a good place to start. as well as looking at the citations in a paper, and what papers cite a paper you are reading.
i might look for EPA or DHA, if a paper doesn't mention those it is going to be tangential.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on May 7, 2011, at 7:05:22
In reply to Re: fish oil studies?, posted by desolationrower on May 7, 2011, at 6:45:21
> Well if you put that into scholar.google.com you will have a lifetime's worth of reading. Checking the citations on wikipaedia or other well-referenced writeups is also a good place to start. as well as looking at the citations in a paper, and what papers cite a paper you are reading.
>
> i might look for EPA or DHA, if a paper doesn't mention those it is going to be tangential.I suspect that there is more to fish oil than just providing the building blocks of cell membranes. Some people get manic from it within the first day of taking it. It would seem that these omega fatty acids have pharmacological properties at supranutritional high dosages. I don't know. Maybe not.
Can you shed any light on this subject?
- Scott
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 7, 2011, at 15:10:37
In reply to Re: fish oil studies? » desolationrower, posted by SLS on May 7, 2011, at 7:05:22
> > Well if you put that into scholar.google.com you will have a lifetime's worth of reading. Checking the citations on wikipaedia or other well-referenced writeups is also a good place to start. as well as looking at the citations in a paper, and what papers cite a paper you are reading.
> >
> > i might look for EPA or DHA, if a paper doesn't mention those it is going to be tangential.
>
> I suspect that there is more to fish oil than just providing the building blocks of cell membranes. Some people get manic from it within the first day of taking it. It would seem that these omega fatty acids have pharmacological properties at supranutritional high dosages. I don't know. Maybe not.
>
> Can you shed any light on this subject?
>
>
> - ScottIt's definitely true that the stuff can have some sort of quasipharmacalogical action. Fish oil fixes up my severe depression quite neatly, in a way nothing, and I mean nothing, else ever has. It also keeps me from sleeping to a ridiculous degree, which sort of ruins the positive effect. If I could find a way to counter that side-effect, it would be, frankly, life-changing for me, and it's my greatest wish that this can be done somehow.
Posted by desolationrower on May 7, 2011, at 20:57:20
In reply to Re: fish oil studies? » desolationrower, posted by SLS on May 7, 2011, at 7:05:22
> > Well if you put that into scholar.google.com you will have a lifetime's worth of reading. Checking the citations on wikipaedia or other well-referenced writeups is also a good place to start. as well as looking at the citations in a paper, and what papers cite a paper you are reading.
> >
> > i might look for EPA or DHA, if a paper doesn't mention those it is going to be tangential.
>
> I suspect that there is more to fish oil than just providing the building blocks of cell membranes. Some people get manic from it within the first day of taking it. It would seem that these omega fatty acids have pharmacological properties at supranutritional high dosages. I don't know. Maybe not.
>
> Can you shed any light on this subject?
>
>
> - ScottWell omega-3 (and omega-6) fats are the basis of eicosanoids, which have a lot of effects, including functioning as neurotransmitters & membranes. (omega-3 fats are both converted into them, and compete with omega-6 oils for the enzymes, reducing omega-6 based eicosanoid production). So you end up altering something like two dozen signals (plus the other effects).
So, while they do play a disproportionate role in the the formation of cells in the brain, they also are important for the formation of hormones in cellular signalling. But i wouldn't discount the cell membrane effects. I am not sure the cellular membrane function is well understood yet. I sort of forget most of what they do, the evidence is so overwhelming I wouldn't consider not taking or eating them. The thing I am interested in right now is the good & bad effects of their greater peroxizeability (being polyunsaturated makes them more vulnerable); this has both bad effects (creating toxins) and good (the peroxidized fatty acids may be involved in cellular signalling to increase insulin sensitivity & antioxidant systems. cycloxygenase, the enzyme NSAIDs inhibit, does something similar to w-3 & w-6 fatty acids).
-d/r
Posted by sigismund on May 8, 2011, at 2:04:28
In reply to Re: fish oil studies?, posted by psychobot5000 on May 7, 2011, at 15:10:37
> Fish oil fixes up my severe depression quite neatly, in a way nothing, and I mean nothing, else ever has. It also keeps me from sleeping to a ridiculous degree, which sort of ruins the positive effect.
It is a common enough pattern that anything which helps your depression doesn't help your sleep.
What dose EPA/DHA made your sleep so much worse?
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 8, 2011, at 6:22:17
In reply to Re: fish oil studies? » psychobot5000, posted by sigismund on May 8, 2011, at 2:04:28
> > Fish oil fixes up my severe depression quite neatly, in a way nothing, and I mean nothing, else ever has. It also keeps me from sleeping to a ridiculous degree, which sort of ruins the positive effect.
>
> It is a common enough pattern that anything which helps your depression doesn't help your sleep.
>
> What dose EPA/DHA made your sleep so much worse?Almost any dose, i.e. 300mg of EPA, makes my sleep substantially worse. At what seems to be a fully therapeutic dose, i.e. 1200mg of EPA each morning, I usually go several days without appearing to sleep at all. It's horrible.
Psychbot
Posted by SLS on May 8, 2011, at 6:58:24
In reply to Re: fish oil studies?, posted by desolationrower on May 7, 2011, at 20:57:20
Hi d/r.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. From your descriptions, it seems plausible that fish oil has effects other than simply supplying cells with the raw materials to produce cell membranes.
- Scott
> > I suspect that there is more to fish oil than just providing the building blocks of cell membranes. Some people get manic from it within the first day of taking it. It would seem that these omega fatty acids have pharmacological properties at supranutritional high dosages. I don't know. Maybe not.
> >
> > Can you shed any light on this subject?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> Well omega-3 (and omega-6) fats are the basis of eicosanoids, which have a lot of effects, including functioning as neurotransmitters & membranes. (omega-3 fats are both converted into them, and compete with omega-6 oils for the enzymes, reducing omega-6 based eicosanoid production). So you end up altering something like two dozen signals (plus the other effects).
>
> So, while they do play a disproportionate role in the the formation of cells in the brain, they also are important for the formation of hormones in cellular signalling. But i wouldn't discount the cell membrane effects. I am not sure the cellular membrane function is well understood yet. I sort of forget most of what they do, the evidence is so overwhelming I wouldn't consider not taking or eating them. The thing I am interested in right now is the good & bad effects of their greater peroxizeability (being polyunsaturated makes them more vulnerable); this has both bad effects (creating toxins) and good (the peroxidized fatty acids may be involved in cellular signalling to increase insulin sensitivity & antioxidant systems. cycloxygenase, the enzyme NSAIDs inhibit, does something similar to w-3 & w-6 fatty acids).
>
> -d/r
Posted by desolationrower on May 8, 2011, at 7:41:06
In reply to Re: fish oil studies? » desolationrower, posted by SLS on May 8, 2011, at 6:58:24
Yes, i think the cell membrane issue could be important, but isn't really understood (by researchers). I really don't know why brains accumulate lcfa. But the role as hormone precursor is well established - cox inhibitors are quite beneficial for many conditions, including showing antidepressant effects. But to me, i see it more as a issue of ameliorating problems caused by the deficiency of w-3, as opposed to a narrowly active exogenous intervention. Not eating any fish, and eating lots of industrial seed oil is the intervention: I would avoid it unless it is proven safe (and in fact, the evidence is pretty clear it isn't). High dose fish oil is sort of problematic for the same reason. Any system in a biological entity gets hijacked by evolution for new uses, so changing it one way or another has myriad effects. Hence, i am not too interested in it one way or another; i get aim for about .5g/day of EPA/DHA which means seafood 2/3 times a week, and mostly avoid w-6 fats. Fats linger for a very long time because of the exntensive storage in membranes and adipose tissue. But the taurine in seafood, another compound of note, lasts much less, so if you have concerns about stability it might be better to supplement daily.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on May 8, 2011, at 8:37:23
In reply to Re: fish oil studies? » SLS, posted by desolationrower on May 8, 2011, at 7:41:06
d/r, you are one smart dude. Thanks again for your input.
> Yes, i think the cell membrane issue could be important, but isn't really understood (by researchers).I agree with you regarding the use of supranutritional amounts of omega-3 oils. I would rather create a nutritional supply rather than an over supply.
I recently added phosphatidylserine (PS). Within a few days of starting PS, the trajectory of my recovery accelerated substantially. Perhaps it is an unrelated coincidence. I am not sure that I would want to remove it and rechallenge myself with it in order to establish its contribution. I had thought to add fish oil to supply the membranal processes induced by PS. Perhaps these two substances would work synergistically.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on May 17, 2011, at 8:38:16
In reply to Re: fish oil studies? » SLS, posted by desolationrower on May 8, 2011, at 7:41:06
Hmmm. Maybe I am taking too much.
Expensive stuff.
d/r, venture any comments about the varying requirements for kids? (With checkered genetic histories....)
fb
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.