![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by hyperfocus on April 17, 2011, at 18:27:44
I originally wrote this as a comment to a blogger on another site and I figure that if anybody here wants a description of what social phobia is like and possible steps to recovery, it could be useful
Hey Nick, you don't know me but I feel like I know you pretty well. I also suffer from severe social phobia / Avoidant Personality Disorder - have had it for almost 20 years. Yes it is THE ABSOLUTE WORST. It's pretty damn painful - way past the point where you get used to the day-to-day pain and loneliness and isolation and depression and start believing it's normal to feel this way. Seemed like all the joy was sucked out of my life over the years by constant bullying and psychological abuse in school. I have exactly the same PTSD-like symptoms you have: vastly morbid and and paranoid and exaggerated fearful responses to the presence of other people, difficulty concentrating, distracting and recurring thoughts, andhedonia, dysthemia, constant anxiety, depression, feelings of worthlessness, thoughts about suicide. I've never had a girlfriend or any serious romantic relationship. And yes I did made a decision and do all the research you did and I found the exact cocktail you did and I was pretty close to trying to catch the bus too. The only reason I didn't try was the thought of what it would do to my family and the one or two people I considered my friends. So suffice to say I think I know what you're going though.
The thing is that I'm getting better. I used to be house-bound, like 24x7. Just checking the mail was a serious task for me and made me very stressed out and tired. The minute I go into my driveway I feel like everyone in the neighbourhood is looking at me, automatically tuned in to all my thoughts criticizing everything about me like my pants are too short or my legs are too skinny. I was isolated, cut off from everybody and everything - a prisoner in my own head. I'd forgotten what it was like to just talk on the phone normally or hang out with somebody.
But I'm getting better. Now I can go for a walk in my town. I can stop in a store for a few things. One day recently I passed a church having evening service. I stood outside and listened to them sing. I didn't feel like everybody was watching me and moreso I didn't care what anybody thought of me. Another time I got into a bus and as I was getting into my seat I whacked my head on one of the newfangled LCD screens they have in some buses now. Normally I would have been mortified and spent the rest of the trip feeling as if everybody was staring and laughing at me. But all I thought about was which %#@!^$ public servant had decided putting screens so close above the seats was a good idea. On the same bus I was staring at a girl with blue-dyed braids the whole time and it was only after I got off at my stop that I realized that I had thought very little about what the other people in the bus were thinking about me, which is fine because nobody on the bus even noticed me; I was just another normal commuter.
Here's the thing - I thought I was done. I thought my brain and mind were damaged and twisted and torn up and ground down beyond repair. I was sure that all the things I had lost - friends, girlfriends, academics, sports, career, youth, even just plain simple peace-of-mind were gone forever and I'd never get them back. I thought I'd never get back the 20 years I lost to this disease. But I was wrong. I am getting better. And seriously Nick, if I can get better then ANYBODY with Social Phobia can get better. Because I've had it just as bad, if not worse and just as long as other people with it.
First thing - you need medication. There are multiple things that are wrong with your brain - this is why you have this complex set of symptoms. If your doctors tell you therapy/CBT alone can cure you - find another set of people to look after you. They don't know what the heck they are talking about. The part of your brain responsible for rewarding you with good feelings from studying or reading or playing or interacting with people called the hippocampus has atrophied and needs repair. A part of your brain called the amygalda which is where your anxious responses originate has become oversensitive and enlarged. Plus all your stress reaction subsystems - like a part of your physiology called the HPA axis - are completely screwed up, leading you to feel hyperaware and tense when interacting with people and practically all the time. The levels of stress hormones like cortisol in your body are way too high. You absolutely need medication to correct these problems. You have majorly screwed autonomic reactions to things like people observing you or being out in public. It's sort of like getting hit with a football to the face and afterwards your body just reacts when someone does a long kick near you - you automatically turn away. This response isn't something you can control. You brain has become physically attuned to expect danger and attack whenever you are around people and you ABSOLUTELY NEED medication to fix it.
The big problem is that for social phobia most meds are rubbish. The only ones that have been shown to have a good chance of working for SP are:
MAOIs - Nardil usually or sometimes Parnate.
Benzos - usually Klonopin (clonazepam) or Xanax(alprozalam).Some SSRIs like Paxil and Lexapro and Zoloft have had limited success but not close to what Nardil. Ditto some antipsychotics like Risperdal and Dogmatil. Xanax felt like a miracle the first time I took it but it hurt me in the long-run. Getting off benzos was really, really hard and to this day I think some of my physical symptoms like shakiness and sweating are worse because of them. That's not to say that most benzos - Xanax and Klonopin and Ativan et.al - aren't very effective in the short-term for SP and if you're in considerable distress then they may be a good option. But I don't believe in them for the long-term and they can adversely affect other meds and worsen your anhedonia and apathy. But if you're in a lot pain and absolutely need to function then they are fine to use in the short-term; you ARE NOT going to be hooked on or abuse benzos if you have a genuine anxiety problem, especially SP. If your doctor doesn't understand this then find another one who does.
The thing is I've found success with a combination of meds that don't seem to work on their own but combined and at the right dosage appear to be working synergistically and reversing the changes to my brain. I'm taking three medications in combination which have dramatically improved my social phobia: One is called amitriptyline which I guess you're pretty familiar with. The 2nd is called tianeptine - brand name Stablon. The third is risperidone - brand ame Risperdal. I know all three are available in the UK and are relatively cheap. It took me a long time to get the dosage combination because, for me at least, the effects of these meds are very dose dependent. Right now I take 200mg of amitriptyline 12.5 mg of tianeptine and 1mg of Risperdal, all at night before bed. The difference between these meds and all the others is that these meds have significant neurotrophic properties - they actually heal, protect and stimulate growth of parts of the brain. I really don't know enough about this theoretical stuff, but the prevailing neurotransmitter levels theory of depression is just one theory and may not be correct. Another theory is that depression and social anxiety are actually due to damage and atrophy of key brain structures like I described. These meds may help reverse these negative changes. I don't know how they work but the point is they do work on my social phobia which has been very stubborn and treatment-resistant for a very long time. I went through a ton of meds that didn't work but the point is I finally found these and I am getting better.
What you're going through as a form of PTSD - the same thing soldiers get when exposed to prolonged stress without rest. I know you might cross an intersection and feel like all the people in all the cars are looking at you and you're constantly expecting to be jeered at or humiliated. I know this can happen like a dozen times a day in different situations. But it's the same for many people who come back from war who sit in their house all day with a rifle waiting for the enemy to ambush them. It's exactly the same thing. You were placed in a situation (school) you could not escape from and subjected to extreme stress and danger for a long time. And now in practically every social situation in life every sense in your body is expecting at anytime to be ridiculed or humiliated. The reason for your extreme paranoia and anxiety is that your brain is constantly expecting attack, even in a situation where you rationally know none is to be expected. The problem is that your brain is damaged - not as in you're less intelligent - but it's become abnormally habituated to and expectant of stress and attack. It's not dissimilar to other phobias, really, but the thing is people can go through most of the day without getting into small spaces or interacting with spiders. Social phobia is like having arachnaphobia and living in a house full of spiders. People with other phobias like
agoraphobia are similarly disabled but these fears don't have to do with other people per se, so they can still function at a moderate level. Social phobia is probably the most difficult phobia to manage because it affects your entire life. I mean people are automatically tuned to give and receive love from other people and much of what we find gratifying in life has to do with this, so it is extremely distressing when we are cut off from other people because of social phobia and can lead to feelings of worthlessness and suicidal ideation.Yes it is true the distinction between brain/mind is fluid, and yes in principle therapy could fix your brain. But in my experience this is almost impossible.
So 2nd thing - you absolutely need to find both a medical practitioner and a psychotherapist who understands how to treat your condition and actually cares about you. I know how regimented healthcare is in the UK and you don't have much control over who you see. But it's absolutely vital you find people who can really help you. It could be just a GP or a school counselor. Just somebody who'll listen to you. A lot of doctors have this feeling: look in the textbook it says you have anxiety and depression and I'm giving you SSRIs for it if they don't work then it's not my fault or maybe you're not really sick or you're uncurable. You must stay away from doctors like that. As far as psychotherapy goes - it's not just that you're gonna go back to when you're a child or whatever. It's sort of like, well, let's say you're working out a complicated proof for a math theorem and you're stuck. You need to talk to somebody more experienced than you to help you see where you've gone wrong. Social phobia arises out of deeply buried issues surrounding shame. Together with the meds you have to open up to somebody about all the bad things inside your head. Again, it doesn't have to be a trained person, just somebody who genuinely cares about you.3rd thing: You have to learn how to heal. Mental illness is not a cold. You're not going to wake up one morning, unfortunately, and feel better and start living again after twenty years of it. It will take years to recover. And you have to be realistic as to what you can do before you're well. Like I know if maybe it hadn't been for the pressure of school, you might not have made an attempt on your life. The thing is there's no rush to finish school - you have to take things at your own pace. You're still very young and you have a huge amount of time to do the things you want. School is extremely stressful on the social phobic - just going to classes every day made me absolutely exhausted. What I'd recommend is that you put school on pause till you get better and find a job where you can work from home, so basically you can build your confidence in doing day-to-day work. If you're into computer programming then it's an excellent field to get into as you can work from home many days and telecommute and you can even freelance and pick the jobs you want to work. You also need to get your family involved. You need as many people in your corner as possible to fight this thing. There's no shame in talking about this fully and openly with people who care for you (I know it's vastly easier than it sounds and I still have to be frank and open with my family on how much this thing affects me.)
And here's the 4th thing: you have to recognize that you're a very special person. The reason you have SP is because your mind works in a certain way. If you weren't unfortunate enough to develop SP at this age you'd probably be working as a scientist in computers or mathematics. It's not coincidence that literally every famous mathematician or scientists - people like Alan Turing or John Nash - developed symptoms of mental illness at some age. A lot of science- and math- inclined people get paranoid delusions or obsessions. It's just in your case it manifested itself at this age in this way. But you've got a long life to live. I think you've realized by now how hard it is in the modern world to actually take your own life. And EVERYBODY goes through a long period of bad times in their life - be it at 20 or at 30 or 60. I mean Star Wars is my favourite movie and you know how out of the darkest times the best things happen. Seriously, you will get back everything you've lost or was taken away. I don't know how or where it will happen but it will happen. It happened to me and I still don't believe it. But we're still the same people inside like when we were young. Once this disease starts to remit you'll find yourself feeling things you had forgotten.One important thing you have to realize is that you're not a coward. You may think you are but you're not. You're actually pretty strong. Most people wouldn't be able to handle this disease the way you have. And here's the most important thing - you are a good person. Some of the people who bullied you decided the best way to deal with their own low self-esteem and abuse by other people was to turn it on others. But you're not like that. Even when you decided to end it all you were still concerned about the people you cared about. There's a huge amount of evil in this world and it spreads like a virus but you decided not to spread it - that's really the best decision you ever made. I don't know what you believe in and of course that decision is up to you. But I'm just saying - what do you have to lose? I got to a point where, like you, I was at rock bottom. Nothing helped - not the meds, not therapy, not other people. I wanted to die, quite simply. But I had nothing to lose so, you know what, I prayed and I asked God to help me. And it helped - a lot.You're not going to turn into some automaton blindly following some ancient anachronistic rules. I was really afraid religion would change me, but it didn't. Well it did, but only in one small thing. It made me believe that there's a reason that we go through these things; a reason that we suffer. It is true that after we pass through difficult times we look back and realize how much stronger we became because of what we went through. And I couldn't believe it when I started to earn back some things I thought were gone forever.
The main argument I had about religion was that it's not rooted in reality - it's just something that makes you feel good. But I mean the truth is every Friday millions of people go to the pubs and clubs and drink alcohol and pretend just for a few hours to be somebody they're not and that life is a lot easier than it is. Same reason people go to watch Keira Knightly and Hugh Grant every month. Everybody, everywhere is looking for an escape, something to take the pain of living away, sonething to give them back belief in themselves. If you believe in God and it's just a fantasy, then so what? I don't think you're much different from most.
Anyway this is pretty pretty long... but I just wanted to let you know that you can get better and the steps you can take. Also I'd like to extend an invitation to join a mental-health and psych meds forum called Psycho-Babble. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble. It's a pretty cool place with a lot of good caring people who have gone through the same things we have and are also struggling to get better. Most of the stuff I learned about mental illness and psych meds I learned here and this site is the major reason I'm making progress against my social phobia. The thing about dealing with any mental illness is that for treatment-resistant cases like ours, you need basically to take your treatment into your own hands. You can't rely on the doctors because every day some new drug is coming out or some new combination is discovered that is successful and a lot of doctors just aren't interested in keeping up with the pace. But there are too many drugs and treatments out there for you not to find a solution that works for you. And well I know it's been a long hard journey, but I know there's still things you take pleasure in and people you care about. So just hold on to those things and hope. Hope is like the quintessential human emotion you know? There's probably like millions of people all over the world imprisoned unfairly for something they didn't do, just hoping to get out one day. So you're not alone in your suffering, if that's any consolation. And I think after this ordeal you're going to be a much stronger person with a good sense of what the right things in life are.
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2011, at 19:20:57
In reply to A social phobia story, posted by hyperfocus on April 17, 2011, at 18:27:44
Hyperfocus what an awesome post. And so glad you have recovered. Phillipa
Posted by tepi on April 17, 2011, at 21:25:54
In reply to A social phobia story, posted by hyperfocus on April 17, 2011, at 18:27:44
Oh my God , this is one of the best descriptions of what a person with social phobia has to deal every minute of his life
I have it , and yes yes I swear to God it is so painfull . As you mentionec , people who has other phobias like arachnophobia they feel good all the time they dont see spiders. But us !? we are surrounded by humans , who "think" very bad things about us . And we need humas to make friends , to make a family , to enjoy life
I dont know how you feel in this moment and what meds you are taking .
I Just want to tell you I AM IN THE SAME SITUATION
And psychiatry needs to reconsider how BAD this disease is and how much affect people lives
I dare to say sometimes I suffer just like an squizophrenic
Please if you find a solution , tell me right away
Im with you brother . I understand exactly what you are feeling , believe me I know what is this
God bless you
Tepi
Posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 23:38:59
In reply to Re: A social phobia story, posted by tepi on April 17, 2011, at 21:25:54
Thank you hp. I don't know what to say. I still remember being dx'd with SP. At first I thought the psychologist liked me. But when she pronounced it, such a gulf opened between us. I felt like I was a curiosity and she had finally named me.
I still remember her saying there was fight or flight. Then there was freeze, and that's what I did. It was like she was excited about her discovery.
I broke down after getting myself through school and then teaching. You are so right about the fatigue SP causes. Everything I did 'cost' me. I could pass very well on the surface. I seemed brash and unconcerned, then go home and tear myself apart. But in grad school it became real big. And afterwards, there was little ability to pretend. I was spent. I was transparent.
My first experience with ssri's was like living as one of the angels from The Wings of Desire (European version, please). I walked through the main workspace and heard the buzz of voices:
she's fat, she's stupid, she's ugly. Oh my god, I thought. They are talking about me. Oh my god, I thought. Those voices are mine. Everyone is actually minding their own business. I had never stopped living my childhood over and over. I walked holding my breath, breathing really quietly. I tried pulling myself inward.I still feel very separate, very marked, very shameful. I can also say I have moments every day of being 'alright'. I can talk to people sometimes without running, though I may feel the impulse to dart away repeatedly throughout any
conversation. And I still go days without returning calls. I've lost lots of good friends. Good people who wouldn't have care if I had SP, depression, anxiety.Oh. See what a ramble you've provoked :D
fb
(Super hugs.)
(I want to hear more about these brain regions and nurturing them.) (Not right this second unless you want to. In the fullness of time.)
Posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 6:15:30
In reply to A social phobia story, posted by hyperfocus on April 17, 2011, at 18:27:44
'meds have significant neurotrophic properties - they actually heal, protect and stimulate growth of parts of the brain. '
Hahaha. Risperdal?
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 6:34:53
In reply to Re: A social phobia story, posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 6:15:30
> 'meds have significant neurotrophic properties - they actually heal, protect and stimulate growth of parts of the brain. '
>
> Hahaha. Risperdal?Standard antidepressants and lithium have this effect as well.
Did you know that? Just curious.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 18, 2011, at 14:16:23
In reply to Re: A social phobia story, posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 6:15:30
Huxley,
This seems to me to be a rather mean spirited response. And a reductive one at that, too.
I'm sorry if you are feeling upset enough to literally laugh at others right now. And in a thread about social anxiety. Now that seems pretty darn silly to me in an
ironic sort of way.What's going on?
Take care of yourself.
fb>
> Hahaha. Risperdal?
>
>
>
Posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 18:46:09
In reply to Re: A social phobia story » huxley, posted by floatingbridge on April 18, 2011, at 14:16:23
> Huxley,
>
> This seems to me to be a rather mean spirited response. And a reductive one at that, too.
>
> I'm sorry if you are feeling upset enough to literally laugh at others right now. And in a thread about social anxiety. Now that seems pretty darn silly to me in an
> ironic sort of way.
>
> What's going on?
>
> Take care of yourself.
>
>
> fb
>
> >
> > Hahaha. Risperdal?
> >
> >
> >
>
>Sorry didn't mean for it to be mean spirited.
I find it humourous that people on here claim and believe that antispychotics 'heal' your brain.SLS do you work for a pharma lobby group? You maybe should apply for funding from them seeing as you are spreading their good word.
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 18:54:11
In reply to Re: A social phobia story, posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 18:46:09
> SLS do you work for a pharma lobby group?
No.
> You maybe should apply for funding from them seeing as you are spreading their good word.
Your sarcasm betrays you.
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on April 18, 2011, at 19:03:23
In reply to Re: A social phobia story, posted by huxley on April 18, 2011, at 18:46:09
I think (if I may be so bold) that Scott values the toolbox and doesn't want to see anything taken out of it.
I don't really like what is in it much. I've got nothing against the toolbox as such.
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 19:19:18
In reply to Re: A social phobia story, posted by sigismund on April 18, 2011, at 19:03:23
> I think (if I may be so bold) that Scott values the toolbox and doesn't want to see anything taken out of it.
That's a great way of putting it.
> I don't really like what is in it much. I've got nothing against the toolbox as such.
I think we can all find fault with various aspects of the psychotropic medications that now exist. Until better ones come along, we are stuck with what we have. Still, these drugs serve a much needed purpose for which few other therapeutic modalities exist.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 19, 2011, at 1:18:53
In reply to Re: A social phobia story, posted by tepi on April 17, 2011, at 21:25:54
tepi,
You are in my thoughts right now. Thank you for sharing some of your experience. You are very brave to do so.
I don't know what you have and haven't tried. I think SP takes such hard work, and it is such slow work. Unrewarding for starters, or so it seems. Pushing a boulder up a hill in the beginning. But maybe worth it. I hope so.
Peace to you, and kind regards,
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on April 20, 2011, at 12:21:18
In reply to A social phobia story, posted by hyperfocus on April 17, 2011, at 18:27:44
Hyperfocus,
The weirdest coincidence. My pdoc reaffirmed the SP affect. He has never done that, nor has that been a part of our work. Some social anxiety has, yes. Very strange because I have tried to diminish it so, and in fact, run away from it.
Do you know any good reading or links re: SP?
What is the current theory (ies)?
I did *group* cbt for this. Individual cbt.
Sigh. It only makes sense that when I'm off meds, original or some variant symptoms emerge. Like I could dye my hair red for years, but between treatments the roots would be brown. Honestly, grey.I tried to hedge by saying, oh, it's not so bad. Doesn't quite work, though does it?
I mean yes and no. I can talk to complete strangers. I can sign my name in front of others, like write a check. But it's still showing up. It still underwrites my decisions.
Posted by Phillipa on April 20, 2011, at 21:38:58
In reply to hp + all here, questions re: SP » hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on April 20, 2011, at 12:21:18
FB are you my Twin as same happens to me including gray roots!!!! Phillipa also can sign check and love to talk to strangers as can leave when I Like!!!
Posted by hyperfocus on April 22, 2011, at 23:56:12
In reply to hp + all here, questions re: SP » hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on April 20, 2011, at 12:21:18
> Hyperfocus,
>
> The weirdest coincidence. My pdoc reaffirmed the SP affect. He has never done that, nor has that been a part of our work. Some social anxiety has, yes. Very strange because I have tried to diminish it so, and in fact, run away from it.
>
I think that bullying, especially in highly-sensitive people (yes this actually is a personality type,) causes a psychic injury that can go very deep and undermine a person's core belief system. This can cause changes in a person's behaviour that may seem unrelated to the primary trauma. The primary tactic of all bullies is to make the victim feel worthless. The PTSD symptoms that can develop from bullying - social phobia, depression, anxiety, anhedonia, et. al, can reinforce this belief in a person. I really believe now that humans are tuned to give and recieve love and when something like social phobia impairs this ability, it is extremely traumatic to the person, more so that the person may realize. Personally there are many components of my pathological personality - avoidant, narcisstic, obsessive, self-destructive, schizoid, borderline - that stem directly from the quadruple whammy of highly-sensitive / bullying / social phobia / PTSD. I think shame is the most toxic emotion a human can have. One person described it very well: it's like everyday we take a white sheet and spread it over and do our best to cover up all the ash and ruin that our emotional life inside is. fb what do you think SP has changed about you? Are there things in your life that may have their root in SP?> Do you know any good reading or links re: SP?
>
http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ptsd.htm
is the place where I first made the bullying-PTSD connectionhttp://www.highlysensitivepeople.com/
http://www.hsperson.com/
about highly sensitive people> What is the current theory (ies)?
What do you mean - what is ies?
> I did *group* cbt for this. Individual cbt.
> Sigh. It only makes sense that when I'm off meds, original or some variant symptoms emerge. Like I could dye my hair red for years, but between treatments the roots would be brown. Honestly, grey.
>
> I tried to hedge by saying, oh, it's not so bad. Doesn't quite work, though does it?
> I mean yes and no. I can talk to complete strangers. I can sign my name in front of others, like write a check. But it's still showing up. It still underwrites my decisions.Whenever I fantasize about doing stuff with a girlfriend - kissing, cuddling, making love etc., it's always with somebody I've never met or who at least doesn't know me very well. I feel that all the girls who know me for a while, regardless of their feelings for me, have become 'contaminated' by knowing who I am and thus can do nothing but loathe me. I can't fantasize about any girl who knows me presently because I classify them as threats - people who have seen all my flaws, who have pulled the sheet back and can only be repulsed. So, yes, social phobia does undermine literally everything in your life. Also remember mental illness has nothing to do with a person's true personality. You might actually like public speaking but be terrified of getting up in the middle of a class to go to the bathroom.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 25, 2011, at 10:35:53
In reply to Re: hp + all here, questions re: SP » floatingbridge, posted by hyperfocus on April 22, 2011, at 23:56:12
Hi hyperfocus, thanks for writing and for the links. The obscurity was meant to refer to theory or theories. Because I imagine there are competing theories regarding social phobia. I think it can exist separate from trauma or ptsd. So I'm curious about SP in non-traumatized populations.
The bullying link was interesting. It nuances situations that other people tend to shrug off, saying that bullying can (and by extension, should?) be endured
or simply left behind. Work place bullying was actually something I had not thought about--. The correlation I drew was one of date rape; that not being accepted or 'seen' until the past
maybe 15 years or so ago.Another curious thing. Yesterday, an acquaintance I have known for over 20 years told me about her struggle with depression, and moreover, social anxiety. How she'd panic in a market. We both understood instantly the *shopping* thing and had a good laugh, hard won as it was. I am fairly shockproof after the last year of events; however, this wonderful woman whom I had idealize and envied. There she had been all along, putting up the good fight, and I had had no idea. But you could tell I do, I said to her, it's written all over me.
No, she said. That's the funny thing.
I would say she is more social phobia w/o traumatic events. But I'm wondering, after reading your post, that having a phobia, and as tepi has affirmed, one regarding our social selves, isn't
traumatic (leaving scars and wounds) by nature. Because as we talked, her demeanor changed. I knew she knew. She looked anxious and worn. I had not seen that before because she can compensate so well. And because I just
didn't see; too busy dealing and hiding on my end. Sigh. We agreed to keep in touch by email. No phone calls...yet.Please take care. Thank you, hp.
Posted by hyperfocus on April 25, 2011, at 21:10:31
In reply to Re: hp + all here, questions re: SP » hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on April 25, 2011, at 10:35:53
One bit of psychological/philosophical theory I read about a long time ago had to do with the trauma of children realizng that a perception of themselves existed separate and outside their control. Do you remember how as a child you could stare innocently at people every day, not really knowing or caring that they could see you? As if the world were just one big movie screen and you were just part of the audience? And then at some point you lost your innocence and realized that the people you were looking at could see you too and there was nothing you could do to keep them from forming judgments about you and hurting you. Like you also existed in somebody else's perception and they could see all your faults and flaws and all that was wrong with you and they could cause you to feel shame.
I also read about what's called 'magical thinking' wrt social phobia. We have a broken coping mechanism of trying to reduce our surface area to avoid other people looking at us. Like we don't ever make eye contact with people under the magical theory that if we can't see someone then they can't see us. Or we have a huge investment in always blending in with the crowd - no dressing or hair-stylng or putting on makeup to stand out - as if this can make us invisible to other people. The theory is broken in two ways: other people CAN see us whether we look at them or not, and it really takes a huge amount of effort by someone to be noticed and truly stand out anywhere.
If you put a group of 100 or 200 people in a room under observation, you'd be hard-pressed to pick out the ones with SP though. Many of us have this calm, emotionless affect we've perfected to cover up the churning inside. I guess this what your friend has nurtured. But also, we fail to remember that there's nothing to make us stand out from anybody. You have to try really, really hard to standout anywhere and be noticed by anyone. It's funny how we look at teenagers at the mall - with their insane hairstyles and makeup and piercings - and feel that they just fit in perfectly, while we will never.The trauma of standing out and feeling shame can be devestating. Our brains have a different experience from other people. Our brains keep cycling the times when people made us feel we stood out and it will do literally anything to prevent that happening again. But I guess it's possible to develop SP without trauma. SP could be a secondary symptom of depression or some type of dissociative or obsessive disorder. One thing I'm learning is that despite the best efforts of doctors and researchers, mental illness continues to defy classification and labelling and seems to exist on a huge continum that surfaces as multiple clusters of symptoms. There may not be a direct cause-effect relationship between an experience and the development of SP.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 25, 2011, at 22:08:04
In reply to Re: hp + all here, questions re: SP, posted by hyperfocus on April 25, 2011, at 21:10:31
hp, this is interesting. In theory, just the existential shock of realizing one's separateness, visibility, and vulnerability could be a trauma of it's own that some people spend lives managing. They may have had gentle enough lives, loving, good enough parents who kept them safe from bullying or sexual, physical, or other abuse.
But fear itself is traumatic. And not
many people experience such
vulnerability as you outlined so well. They may read about it, intellectually grasp it, but, now speaking for myself, finding myself alone in the immensity of the world was a horror apart from the abuse and predations experienced and witnessed.I may very well have discovered this indifference of the world that Camus' stranger found 'gentle' even within an healthy family. People could have spoken to me about it, been kind, (but weren't); my point is, how would I have carried forward the knowledge of my discovery, even given optimal circumstances? Or are these thoughts only realized by the downtrodden? That ignorance is a luxury I would give a great deal for.
Hey. Someone reccommend a therapist's works to me. Have you heard of someone like Belle Ruth Naparstek? Google her name +ptsd. I haven't had a chance to explore it yet. Do you know her work?
fb
Posted by SLS on April 26, 2011, at 6:17:49
In reply to Re: hp + all here, questions re: SP » floatingbridge, posted by hyperfocus on April 22, 2011, at 23:56:12
Hyperfocus,
> I think that bullying, especially in highly-sensitive people (yes this actually is a personality type,) causes a psychic injury that can go very deep and undermine a person's core belief system. This can cause changes in a person's behaviour that may seem unrelated to the primary trauma. The primary tactic of all bullies is to make the victim feel worthless. The PTSD symptoms that can develop from bullying - social phobia, depression, anxiety, anhedonia, et. al, can reinforce this belief in a person. I really believe now that humans are tuned to give and recieve love and when something like social phobia impairs this ability, it is extremely traumatic to the person, more so that the person may realize.
Thank you for this. It explains a great deal of how my past affected my present. I just hope that I can resolve these issues for a better future.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2011, at 10:46:45
In reply to Re: hp + all here, questions re: SP » hyperfocus, posted by SLS on April 26, 2011, at 6:17:49
I'm sorry this is part of your history, too, Scott. I didn't know.
I believe you have the abilities to resolve it in some way.
fb
Posted by hyperfocus on April 26, 2011, at 11:33:47
In reply to Re: hp + all here, questions re: SP, posted by floatingbridge on April 25, 2011, at 22:08:04
*sigh* I wish I could have back that ignorance too fb. For myself, fb, SLS, everybody with SP. Sometimes, especially at night after another exhausting day, I feel as if I've gone through enough pain to last a person a lifetime. I feel old - not advanced in years - but just tired of living. My body and mind feel broken. All day I struggle to do the things most people don't even think about. Yes, all these gifts we've gained through illness and suffering could have been acquired at a cheaper price. Some people seem to breeze through life without ever thinking about stuff life this. I'm not decided if this is a good or bad thing.
But I guess that's where religion come in - it's part of the benefits plan if you sign up. There's a reason we're going through this pain. All that was taken from us will be given back someway, somehow. Try to do the right thing, no matter what. Wisdom and righteousness are the only shield you need. All the people who tormented you will get theirs one day.
There are no atheists on Risperdal. I personally can't deal with this life alone. I'm not strong or smart or brave or resilient enough. So if religion is a crutch or whatever then fine - sign me up, here's my money. But I mean today on the BBC I was watching this story about these Burmese men and women who are sold into slavery to work on the docks in Thailand. And hearing the horrific stories of torture and imprisonment and betrayal and murder, it sort of reminds you that there are no guarantees in this life. Every morning we get up and take one more breath and maybe hear a bit of music or see our kid's face, we should be grateful. Because there are so many with so much less.
And also, we should be grateful for the fact that we don't try deliberately to hurt other people. We don't take any pleasure in hurting others. We do our best to treat others well and it tears us up so much when we fall short. That, to me, is a wonderful thing to have. Because this whole Universe is about balances and equlibirum and it has been made clear to me by my family that in this world what goes around, comes around. This law is independent of any belief in divinity you might have.
This is the end of the thread.
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