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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 50. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on April 13, 2011, at 13:03:28
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 12:20:56
Does it help to know that depression is a liar? Perhaps you can identify the lies that yours is telling you. You might better be able to appreciate the warping of perceptions that depression exerts on everyone who suffers from it.
You might be reacting to the pain and frustration that depression is causing you by becoming globally angry at everyone and everything. This is a matter of the psyche and can be changed. It might also be that agitation is a matter of the abnormalities in the function of the brain that can occur with depression. This agitation presents as anger, for which you must search out a culprit when there really is none. The culprit you have chosen to assign blame to is you. I guess there is the appearance of logic here. If it is not everyone else who is responsible for your "reprehensible" behavior, it must therefore be you. After all, there is no one left to blame.
Do you feel that there is a lack of communication and self-disclosure with the people around you regarding what you experience in life while you are in your ill state? You might stop blaming yourself for the manifestations of a biological illness for which you have little control over. You are not responsible. I am sure that you are doing the best that you can with what you have to work with.
I like you. Why is that?
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 13:44:58
In reply to road mapping AD shortlist, posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 7:01:24
Just wanted to tell you that your crisis could be caused by decreasing your dose of norco. Opioid withdrawal has been known to cause self-loathing and shame spirals. It will get better.
Posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 13:57:06
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 13:44:58
FB, so sorry you are dealing with this crisis of spirit and existence. I really do hope things get better soon.
I agree that opiod withdrawal may be responsible for things going downhill so fast. You did not appear to be in a very good place to begin with, so withdrawing from Norco is like throwing gasoline on to the burning coals.
Is there anything that has calmed you and given you relief in the past that has not caused any major side effects? A low to moderate dose of lithium? I'm always talking about lithium, I guess because I see so many people respond to it. What about a moderate dose of Depakote? I consider these treatments at moderate to low doses to be both neuroprotective and anger/mood modifying. Neither of them have to be permanent treatments, just ways of to help put out the fire. What do you think?
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 14:01:42
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 13:57:06
Have you tried low dose Naltrexone yet? I believe you were considering it. I'm wondering why neither your GP or your Pdoc has gone for a Naltrexone trial, it just doesn't make sense to me, especially considering your withdrawal from Norco. Maybe you have not suggested it to them. Doctors frustrate the heck out of me. Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't even consider the treatments I've suggested to necessarily be desperate or risky, I know some that are on one of three of these-depakote, lithium, and naltrexone-simply for neuroprotection/longevity and mood enhancement, in the absence of any real issues with mental illness.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on April 13, 2011, at 14:04:49
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 13:44:58
> Just wanted to tell you that your crisis could be caused by decreasing your dose of norco. Opioid withdrawal has been known to cause self-loathing and shame spirals.
I didn't know that.
That is a critical insight. So, opioid withdrawal is one heck of a liar.
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 14:54:30
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » mtdewcmu, posted by SLS on April 13, 2011, at 14:04:49
> > Just wanted to tell you that your crisis could be caused by decreasing your dose of norco. Opioid withdrawal has been known to cause self-loathing and shame spirals.
>
> I didn't know that.
>
> That is a critical insight. So, opioid withdrawal is one heck of a liar.It's not necessarily lying. But sometimes you can't handle the truth.
Posted by SLS on April 13, 2011, at 15:32:29
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 14:54:30
> > > Just wanted to tell you that your crisis could be caused by decreasing your dose of norco. Opioid withdrawal has been known to cause self-loathing and shame spirals.
> >
> > I didn't know that.
> >
> > That is a critical insight. So, opioid withdrawal is one heck of a liar.
>
> It's not necessarily lying. But sometimes you can't handle the truth.I should think that it is not the truth that someone is avoiding when they are suffering from acute withdrawal, regardless of extant "truths".
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 15:38:35
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 14:54:30
>It's not necessarily lying. But sometimes you can't handle the truth.
I would say that most of us have a very hard time with the truth most of the time. Not talking about you FB : )
Posted by sigismund on April 13, 2011, at 16:15:00
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 15:38:35
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:27:45
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by sigismund on April 13, 2011, at 16:15:00
> Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
I did see one of my roosters butchered this week. I eat meat. That was plenty of truth for awhile.
We sang an North African killing song (for guinnea birds) that helped. Everyone was reverent. I didn't have the nerve to eat my rooster. I gave it to my good farm friends.
The blood was brilliant red, then very quickly dulled. Flute's last moments. He kicked and kicked after his head was removed--his life force in that body was so strong. I couldn't help feeling that I betrayed him. I did.
Guess avoid slaughterhouses while on norco tapers. :(
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:32:17
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by mtdewcmu on April 13, 2011, at 13:44:58
Oh fabulous. Well, MtDew, thank you. That does help. I just am already such a shame weakling :-/
I will keep this in mind. The step from 30 to 20 was nothing like this 20 to 15mg.
Very good information. I am grateful.
I will make no plans except to clear my schedule and practice self-kindness (when possible ;) ).
fb
You smartie, you.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:44:39
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 15:38:35
> >It's not necessarily lying. But sometimes you can't handle the truth.
>
> I would say that most of us have a very hard time with the truth most of the time. Not talking about you FB : )Silly Billy, it's as difficult for me as anyone. Now I'm thinking something ridiculous and unpleasant: that gawd awful movie about some court martial and Jack Nickelson vs that perpetual enemy of psychiatry super star, Mr.
Cruise. Remember that film?I surrendered all my unused meds. The cupboards are bare of lithium. Dr's seem to think this is just alright, you know. I have reupped my xanax to my upper allowed level. That's all I have. Both gp & pdoc say 'sit tight'. Very quaint.
I can understand that in order to reboot, a doctor would prefer less chemical interference, esp after scaring everyone with my Lyrica reaction :(
Still, had one said to me what MtDew had; what a difference that could make, eh?
Thanks Morgan. I'll let you know when the dust settles.
Hugs dude!
Posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:48:25
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:44:39
Posted by morgan miller on April 14, 2011, at 1:26:35
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by floatingbridge on April 13, 2011, at 16:44:39
FB, even in your worst state, you still have your spirit. You appear to be quite strong. I bet most people in your situation would have no where close the amount of restraint and control that you have.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:40:12
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 14, 2011, at 1:26:35
Morgan, that's one of the kindest thing everv said about me. Wow. Thanks :)
I'm sooooo relieved MtDew posted that comment about norco taper. Guess I'll make it :D
I am feeling great amounts of gratitude for the folks here at babble. You included.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:53:11
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist, posted by morgan miller on April 13, 2011, at 14:01:42
Morgan, gp wants to try it, but she said it would bring on instant withdrawal and She wants to spare me. I don't know if she means completely off, or down to 10 or 5 of norco. See her Monday.
Read the letter my DO sent my gp. Says I need to go forward with pain meds. But what? What is there besides narcotics and AD's?
Sigh.
Will start LDN asap. Will post progress. Have You tried it?
BTW, hope you are alright.
fb
> Have you tried low dose Naltrexone yet? I believe you were considering it. I'm wondering why neither your GP or your Pdoc has gone for a Naltrexone trial, it just doesn't make sense to me, especially considering your withdrawal from Norco. Maybe you have not suggested it to them. Doctors frustrate the heck out of me. Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't even consider the treatments I've suggested to necessarily be desperate or risky, I know some that are on one of three of these-depakote, lithium, and naltrexone-simply for neuroprotection/longevity and mood enhancement, in the absence of any real issues with mental illness.
>
> Morgan
Posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 5:52:17
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:53:11
Hi FB.
Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 7:47:56
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 5:52:17
> Hi FB.
>
> Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
>
>She is probably over the hump by now anyway, at least for this dose reduction. It may help with future reductions, though.
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 7:50:37
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 1:40:12
> I'm sooooo relieved MtDew posted that comment about norco taper. Guess I'll make it :D
>I'm glad it had that effect. Since you're still taking norco, the proof would be if you suddenly feel better after each norco dose, but gradually worsen as your next dose approaches. It should follow a very predictable pattern.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:11:13
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 7:50:37
Like clockwork. And I do feel like I've gotten over some sort of hump. Good. And, well, sobering. First the good. Maybe I'm not quite so wretched :D. It's just my chemically induced personality. I'm still going to work on more healthy anger expression (anger *hygiene*).
More sobering is the actual pain itself. I love seeing my body reset to lower doses of norco again. That shows resilience. However, the pain between doses can be insistent.
My Osteopath wrote my gp that he reccommends pain medication going forward. :( So, my choices seem to be a) narcotics--no(!), b) anti-depressants (failed cymbalta & lyrica--in flames; no thanks savella!) c) tricyclics (I love being AD free! Despite my cries for knock-out risperdal.) d) ? Zanaflex helps (milder muscle relaxant).
Of course, add gradated (graduated?) exercise and some meditation, plus more therapy, but I don't mind these.
Thanks one and all :)
fb
>
> I'm glad it had that effect. Since you're still taking norco, the proof would be if you suddenly feel better after each norco dose, but gradually worsen as your next dose approaches. It should follow a very predictable pattern.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:19:27
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 5:52:17
> Hi FB.
>
> Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
>
>
> - ScottHey Scott,
Given an adverse trial of Lyrica, and that the Lyrica didn't seem to touch the main pain, could neurontin hold potential as a pain med going forward? And when I get to the next drop, I'll run it past my gp.
[You do know the Lyrica did walk me through snri withdrawal w/ little head-
zapping. That's the silver lining :) ]Thanks,
fb
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 11:34:14
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:19:27
> Given an adverse trial of Lyrica, and that the Lyrica didn't seem to touch the main pain, could neurontin hold potential as a pain med going forward? And when I get to the next drop, I'll run it past my gp.
>
> [You do know the Lyrica did walk me through snri withdrawal w/ little head-
> zapping. That's the silver lining :) ]
>
> Thanks,
>
> fbI know you didn't ask me, but I'm going to venture a guess that there's no way to know unless you try it. I have not had difficulty getting docs to prescribe Neurontin. Neurontin is usually used for neuropathic pain, which is pain that feels like tingling or burning and originates from the nerves. It's not used (to my knowledge) in other kinds of pain. I'm not sure about fibro, but it strikes me as plausible.
Posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 11:56:32
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on April 14, 2011, at 11:19:27
> > Hi FB.
> >
> > Has anyone suggested using gabapentin (Neurontin) to ease the withdrawal effects?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Hey Scott,
>
> Given an adverse trial of Lyrica, and that the Lyrica didn't seem to touch the main pain, could neurontin hold potential as a pain med going forward? And when I get to the next drop, I'll run it past my gp.> [You do know the Lyrica did walk me through snri withdrawal w/ little head-
> zapping. That's the silver lining :) ]
>
> Thanks,
>
> fb
Lyrica and Neurontin are alike in many ways. Neither of them like me very much, though. They really screw me up cognitively (probably because of alpha-2-delta subunit of the calcium channel blockade). However, the two did feel different to me. There is some literature describing the use of Neurontin in opioid withdrawal. Results have been equivocal. The dosages used by some were probably too low (900mg). In any event, I would not approach Neurontin with great optimism. I would not skip it over, though.Pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=opioid%20gabapentin%20withdrawal
Does your back hurt? You may experience more body pains during the process of hydrocodone discontinuation. Neurontin should help with these.
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 12:32:42
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 11:56:32
> Lyrica and Neurontin are alike in many ways. Neither of them like me very much, though. They really screw me up cognitively (probably because of alpha-2-delta subunit of the calcium channel blockade). However, the two did feel different to me. There is some literature describing the use of Neurontin in opioid withdrawal. Results have been equivocal. The dosages used by some were probably too low (900mg). In any event, I would not approach Neurontin with great optimism. I would not skip it over, though.I don't quite understand why Lyrica is a controlled substance (but barely) and Neurontin is not. I have tried Neurontin, and at first it seemed like it could be described as "fun," but those effects went away. Never tried Lyrica. I wonder if it's like Neurontin, but moreso.
Posted by mtdewcmu on April 14, 2011, at 12:38:37
In reply to Re: road mapping AD shortlist » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on April 14, 2011, at 11:56:32
Also, I think it's interesting that Lyrica is the only controlled substance (that I know of) with anything remotely like that mechanism.
> Does your back hurt? You may experience more body pains during the process of hydrocodone discontinuation. Neurontin should help with these.
>I've "heard" that it makes you feel better when you're having opioid withdrawals to take stimulants. Even a cup of coffee makes you feel a little better and takes your mind off it.
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