![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2010, at 19:46:08
Depression also cause physical pain or can. Phillipa
http://www.webmd.com/depression/recognizing-depression-symptoms/physical-symptoms?ecd=wnl_dep_123110
Posted by Maxime on December 31, 2010, at 23:28:52
In reply to Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2010, at 19:46:08
I don't even need to look at the link to know that it's true.
Posted by bleauberry on January 2, 2011, at 7:12:32
In reply to Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2010, at 19:46:08
Personally I don't think depression causes pain. Certainly they commonly do come together. Whatever is causing the depression is also causing the pain. Something else is doing both. Both are symptoms of something else, not actual diseases themselves. This is of course backwards from the way most people accept the entire premise and hypothesis (nothing proven, no replicable facts) of depression.
For example if there is some genetic insult, biological flaw, infectious disease, or toxic disease, maybe production of endorphins or norepinephrine are limited. And thus depression, and thus pain.
What makes the whole issue cloudy is that patients, doctors, and researchers spend nearly zero time on the disease part of things...they are only looking at the end result symptoms as if a cause of them doesn't exist. Weird.
Posted by SLS on January 2, 2011, at 8:03:59
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by bleauberry on January 2, 2011, at 7:12:32
> Personally I don't think depression causes pain.
Personally, I don't think you have a medical basis upon which to make such a supposition. There is, however, plenty of evidence that depression does indeed present with pain as a symptom for some people with MDD and BD. This, of course, does not infer that all presentations of pain are due to a depressive disorder. It is not a good practice to blame every malady known to man on depresssion. However, somatization due to depression is very wide in symptomatology.
Google.
Do you still adhere to your previous thoughts?
I hope not.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on January 2, 2011, at 19:12:11
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » bleauberry, posted by SLS on January 2, 2011, at 8:03:59
Scott, I am a believer that depression can cause body pain. What I don't understand is that after 30 + years of suffering from depression, why are these body pains happening to me NOW? How do I know if they are real, or if I am just somatizing?
Even the joints in my fingers hurt.
Posted by Elanor Roosevelt on January 2, 2011, at 19:56:28
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » SLS, posted by Maxime on January 2, 2011, at 19:12:11
I am having a difficult time dealing with chronic pain that is being diagnosed as a facet of MDD.
I am hoping that my next med (I'm going off Parnate now) might help. Before Parnate I was on Cymbalta. No joint pain but impressive weight gain that in the long run contributed to the pain in my knees and feet. Is the depression causing the pain or skewing my perception of the pain? Doesn't matter. I hurt all the time.
Posted by 10derheart on January 3, 2011, at 2:35:28
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2010, at 23:28:52
Me, either. Yes I realize scientifically just a handful of us saying it here or wherever is seen as anecdotal, but....I lived it. When I first really got depressed about 7-8 years back, really no other facts or circumstances in my life, physical or emotional, had changed *but* the depression. No, not science but just a layperson's observation of herself. Hindsight even makes it clearer, too. I was in some of the best shape of my life, and still I had the strangest aches and pains. When I came out of depression, with no pain medications or other meds to treat anything physical, interestingly enough all those unique types of aches that I never could figure out disappeared.
I am a believer.
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2011, at 5:21:11
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » SLS, posted by Maxime on January 2, 2011, at 19:12:11
> Scott, I am a believer that depression can cause body pain. What I don't understand is that after 30 + years of suffering from depression, why are these body pains happening to me NOW?
The "terrain" of the brain changes over time. Some changes are absolutely necessary for the development of a human being. Early in life, unnecessary neurons are purposely discarded (a process known as pruning). Later in life, necessary neurons are lost to programmed cell death (a process known as apoptosis). Eveything that happens in between demonstrates that the brain is plastic - it can change in reaction to both external and internal stimuli.
The clinical symptomatology and subjective experience of depression that emerges at age 17 often morphs over time. One can be flooded with morbid, negative thoughts early in the course of depressive illness, only to see these mitigate while cognitive and memory impairments become predominant. The same person can experience depression-related pain (increased nociception) at age 47, but not at 17.
> How do I know if they are real, or if I am just somatizing?
The pain is the same to experience. The pain is real. Somatization is not a process of choice. While somatization is often considered a conversion reaction, it is no less biological, despite the inability to find a medical explanation. The pain of MDD and that of somatization disorder do present differently in terms of the symptomatology, and can be differentiated on that basis.
I think Linkadge can better answer questions involving the biology of pain in affective disorders. The ability of some antidepressants to be antinociceptive (anti-pain) might involve serotonin and its interaction with the opioid system.
> Even the joints in my fingers hurt.
:-(
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2011, at 12:00:47
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » SLS, posted by Maxime on January 2, 2011, at 19:12:11
> Scott, I am a believer that depression can cause body pain. What I don't understand is that after 30 + years of suffering from depression, why are these body pains happening to me NOW?
Of course, it could be something other than depression producing the chronic pain. I should have said this in my previous posts just to emphasize this as a possibility. You may have to search for another explanation just in case the chronic pain is due to another condition. In my mind, this is a caveat that must always be considered. Interestingly, a large number of people with MDD are first recognized as having the disorder only after they go to the doctor for complaints of pain and other somatic symptoms. MDD can exist without depressed mood. Try that one on for size.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 3, 2011, at 19:43:06
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » Maxime, posted by SLS on January 3, 2011, at 12:00:47
Pain can also result from undiagnosed arthritis either Rheumatoid or osteo arthritis. First related to autoimmune diseases and elevated ANA. Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on January 3, 2011, at 22:00:45
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » Maxime, posted by SLS on January 3, 2011, at 12:00:47
Well I do have MS but that is a very different pain to what I am experiencing these days. Plus, I have the remitting-relaspsing form of MS so unless I am having an "attack" I am fine with the exception of some motor skills and balance. Sometimes I will just fall over. I just joke with people and tell that I am so accident prone that I don't even need an object to cause me to tip over. :)
Posted by Maxime on January 3, 2011, at 22:02:58
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by Phillipa on January 3, 2011, at 19:43:06
> Pain can also result from undiagnosed arthritis either Rheumatoid or osteo arthritis. First related to autoimmune diseases and elevated ANA. Phillipa
Would that cause pain in one's whole body, or just in the joints? I have a friend who has osteo arthritis, but just in her hips.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 7, 2011, at 18:39:58
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also » SLS, posted by Maxime on January 2, 2011, at 19:12:11
Maxime, ditto. My question exactly. Why now? However, Scott addressed this well enough for me about stages of brain growth and development. Had I really known where I'd be today, well, I was going to say I would have taken my treatment seriously. But then, it only became 'official' about 12 years ago.
So now I try and take care today.
Btw, because of pain and fatigue, I became aware of hashimoto's, osteoarthritis, carpal tunnel, fibromyalgia. And, yeah, my finger joints hurt--less so on cymbalta. I'm saddened to see some of you here dealing with the same symptoms :( You, too, Maxie. Personally, my initial reaction was that of being insulted.
Scott's posts, and many other's helped me believe in the physical dimensions depression can take. Aren't we a lucky bunch of esoteric experts. (Sorry for the sarcasm; I'm sure we all had other plans.)
fb
> Scott, I am a believer that depression can cause body pain. What I don't understand is that after 30 + years of suffering from depression, why are these body pains happening to me NOW? How do I know if they are real, or if I am just somatizing?
> Even the joints in my fingers hurt.
Posted by creepy on January 14, 2011, at 12:38:48
In reply to Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2010, at 19:46:08
I had never experienced fatigue and pain as a result of depression until recently. Its true that these two problems can come from undertreated depression. =(
Posted by jjjaspar on January 18, 2011, at 10:48:22
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by creepy on January 14, 2011, at 12:38:48
> I had never experienced fatigue and pain as a result of depression until recently. Its true that these two problems can come from undertreated depression. =(
>
It can happen whether you have depression or not. Or stress (from depression or whatever other source such as lack of sleep, underlying illness, gut issues, food issues, emotional issues, high blood sugar, etc) can cause or exacerbate the fatigue and pain.Sometimes there already is some underlying immune/autoimmune/inflammatory process going on.
It is very complicated, isn't it?
I guess the idea is to treat everything we can and be as healthy as we can be. Otherwise we may find ourselves in a vicious cycle of pain, fatigue, depression and inflammation.
Jaspar
Posted by creepy on January 19, 2011, at 11:54:09
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by jjjaspar on January 18, 2011, at 10:48:22
Absolutely there are lots of sources for pain. I just noticed that a lot of people dont believe in the connection with depression. I understood the connection and somehow -still- didnt think it was the source of my pain until it lessened with taking zoloft, which isnt known as an analgesic.
Posted by creepy on January 19, 2011, at 11:54:58
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by jjjaspar on January 18, 2011, at 10:48:22
Absolutely there are lots of sources for pain. I just noticed that a lot of people dont believe in the connection with depression. I know it is possible, but somehow I -still- didnt think it was the source of my pain until it lessened with taking zoloft, which isnt known as an analgesic.
Posted by jjjaspar on January 20, 2011, at 7:50:22
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by creepy on January 19, 2011, at 11:54:58
Just curious. Did the depression disrupt your sleep? I was given an antidepressant for depression and not sleeping well. I was also in pain, and I was told the antidepressant would help the pain. In the end, I found that just taking supplements to help my sleep helped the pain (as well as my sleep) and that I didn't have depression.
I cannot say all my pain is gone, but when I sleep better, I can be more active and don't dwell on the pain as much (my pain is from a physical problem I have, unfortunately - but there are ways to help it not be as bad).
Posted by creepy on January 20, 2011, at 14:27:15
In reply to Re: Depression Can Cause Physical Pain Also, posted by jjjaspar on January 20, 2011, at 7:50:22
My depression manifests as a difficulty falling asleep and waking in the morning. Its like my circadian rhythm is upside down.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.