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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by psychobot5000 on December 3, 2010, at 0:03:23
Hi,
Can anyone tell me where to find the binding affinities of doxepin? I'm trying to figure out how its 5ht-2a binding compares to H1, as well as 5ht-2c--H1 and 5ht2a seem to be helpful to me (though not necessarily at the same time), while 2c is counterproductive. I just started some tiny doses of doxepin, and I'm trying to figure out how it works and how to dose it. I'd be curious to see data for other tricyclics, too, but that's a digression.
Thanks,
PsychbotPS - Haven't been here in a while--hope you are all well.
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2010, at 6:52:24
In reply to Doxepin binding data?, posted by psychobot5000 on December 3, 2010, at 0:03:23
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me where to find the binding affinities of doxepin? I'm trying to figure out how its 5ht-2a binding compares to H1, as well as 5ht-2c--H1 and 5ht2a seem to be helpful to me (though not necessarily at the same time), while 2c is counterproductive. I just started some tiny doses of doxepin, and I'm trying to figure out how it works and how to dose it. I'd be curious to see data for other tricyclics, too, but that's a digression.
>
> Thanks,
> Psychbot
>
> PS - Haven't been here in a while--hope you are all well.This is a great database for looking up binding affinities. You will want to enter the name of the drug in the "Test Ligand" box.
http://pdsp.med.unc.edu/pdsp.php
- Scott
Posted by Conundrum on December 3, 2010, at 11:50:50
In reply to Doxepin binding data?, posted by psychobot5000 on December 3, 2010, at 0:03:23
if you trust wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricyclic_antidepressantthere is a table at the bottom with the binding data for most of the commonly used TCAs.
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me where to find the binding affinities of doxepin? I'm trying to figure out how its 5ht-2a binding compares to H1, as well as 5ht-2c--H1 and 5ht2a seem to be helpful to me (though not necessarily at the same time), while 2c is counterproductive. I just started some tiny doses of doxepin, and I'm trying to figure out how it works and how to dose it. I'd be curious to see data for other tricyclics, too, but that's a digression.
>
> Thanks,
> Psychbot
>
> PS - Haven't been here in a while--hope you are all well.
Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2010, at 19:51:21
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by Conundrum on December 3, 2010, at 11:50:50
Doxapin is a pretty good med IMHO. I kind of liked it better than amitriptyline, but I was scared about the genotoxicity.
Linkadge
Posted by psychobot5000 on December 5, 2010, at 10:18:55
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2010, at 19:51:21
Hmm. Didn't know about the genotoxicity...
Otherwise, thanks all--I'd tried to use the PDSP database, but my lack of knowledge of appropriate terminology prevented me from using it effectively. Now I seem to be able to get it to work. The Wikipedia page is also useful.
Unfortunately, it doesn't include 5ht2c binding. Anyone know which TCAs have stronger binding at 2a than 2c, or how trimipramine fairs in this regard? (PDSP doesn't come up with much for trimipramine)
Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2010, at 11:52:55
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by psychobot5000 on December 5, 2010, at 10:18:55
I think clomipramine is stronger at 2a than 2c, but I could be wrong.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 5, 2010, at 18:31:21
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by linkadge on December 5, 2010, at 11:52:55
Doxepin is great if you want an antihistamine.
Posted by psychobot5000 on December 5, 2010, at 19:42:50
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 5, 2010, at 18:31:21
> Doxepin is great if you want an antihistamine.
Yeah, I'm finding this is the case--but I'm finding I have to dose it -really- low (not sure yet how low...it's sort of hard to figure out), i.e. 3mg, in order to get that benefit without the other psychotropic stuff...
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 6, 2010, at 13:23:07
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » ed_uk2010, posted by psychobot5000 on December 5, 2010, at 19:42:50
> > Doxepin is great if you want an antihistamine.
>
> Yeah, I'm finding this is the case--but I'm finding I have to dose it -really- low (not sure yet how low...it's sort of hard to figure out), i.e. 3mg, in order to get that benefit without the other psychotropic stuff...Really low doses are supposed to be good for chronic insomnia.
Posted by sigismund on December 6, 2010, at 13:59:01
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 6, 2010, at 13:23:07
>Really low doses are supposed to be good for chronic insomnia.
I've got some here. What's the dose for insomnia? I think the caps I have are 10mg. It is an antihistamine type effect, as I recall. i didn't like it as much as Avanza (while I was asleep) but after Avanza I was a wreck until 3pm. Now if they would Rx amphetmine with Avanza.......
The agomelatine melatonin action wears off (doesn't work any more on me) but the 5ht2c thing is durable.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 6, 2010, at 14:59:18
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » ed_uk2010, posted by sigismund on December 6, 2010, at 13:59:01
>I've got some here. What's the dose for insomnia? I think the caps I have are 10mg.
Try half a capsule (I know it's not convenient to split capsules!)
>Now if they would Rx amphetmine with Avanza.......
That's what you need Sigi. A downer then an upper. Very 1960s :)
Posted by psychobot5000 on December 6, 2010, at 22:09:05
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » sigismund, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 6, 2010, at 14:59:18
> >I've got some here. What's the dose for insomnia? I think the caps I have are 10mg.
>
> Try half a capsule (I know it's not convenient to split capsules!)
>
> >Now if they would Rx amphetmine with Avanza.......
>
> That's what you need Sigi. A downer then an upper. Very 1960s :)According to wikipedia, the doses for insomnia are 3mg and 6mg--so splitting that capsule would put you right in the high-middle of that range (though I'm finding that the lower end may work better)
Posted by sigismund on December 7, 2010, at 1:27:17
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? )) Sigismund, posted by psychobot5000 on December 6, 2010, at 22:09:05
>(though I'm finding that the lower end may work better)
I remember not liking doxepin.
I actually preferred mirtazepine (until I got up), perhaps because it deepened sleep.
Then I had to wait until 3pm to feel that the poison had left my system.Doxepin did not seem to deepen sleep in the same way, IIRC.
Posted by sigismund on December 7, 2010, at 1:29:11
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » ed_uk2010, posted by psychobot5000 on December 5, 2010, at 19:42:50
>in order to get that benefit without the other psychotropic stuff...
What is the other psychotropic stuff?
Posted by Conundrum on December 7, 2010, at 10:08:25
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by psychobot5000 on December 5, 2010, at 10:18:55
Nortriptyline and amitriptyline, you should be able to pull those up on PDSP. I think nortriptyline binds to the 5 HT2C receptor with a potency of 7.0.
Do you know that you respond to 5 HT2C antagonism?
> Unfortunately, it doesn't include 5ht2c binding. Anyone know which TCAs have stronger binding at 2a than 2c, or how trimipramine fairs in this regard? (PDSP doesn't come up with much for trimipramine)
Posted by Conundrum on December 7, 2010, at 10:10:04
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? )) Sigismund » psychobot5000, posted by sigismund on December 7, 2010, at 1:27:17
3 PM? Mirtazapine has a half life around 20-40 hours. Probably towards the shorter end if you're male. I found it increased sleep length. Just got off mirtazapine and its nice to see 9 AM again.
> >(though I'm finding that the lower end may work better)
>
> I remember not liking doxepin.
>
> I actually preferred mirtazepine (until I got up), perhaps because it deepened sleep.
> Then I had to wait until 3pm to feel that the poison had left my system.
>
> Doxepin did not seem to deepen sleep in the same way, IIRC.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 7, 2010, at 13:32:34
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » psychobot5000, posted by sigismund on December 7, 2010, at 1:29:11
Mirtazapine does not agree with me, but it's definitely not as bad as amitriptyline. On amitriptyline, I cannot function at all. I can't even tolerate 10mg of ami. SSRIs are much more tolerable for me. They cause the usual side effects (eg. low libido, reduced emotional response) but nothing horrible. Vilazodone sounds interesting. I'd actually want to try that one when it comes out.
Posted by sigismund on December 7, 2010, at 16:04:12
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » sigismund, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 7, 2010, at 13:32:34
>On amitriptyline, I cannot function at all. I can't even tolerate 10mg of ami.
I took 25mg once and once only.
Posted by psychobot5000 on December 7, 2010, at 16:10:17
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » psychobot5000, posted by Conundrum on December 7, 2010, at 10:08:25
Thanks for the tip, re: ami. I do respond to 5ht2c antagonism, as far as I can tell, though in the long term, the response is counterproductive.
As for the rest, both amitryp and remeron make me a bit zombieish, unfortunately.
Best,
PB
Posted by sigismund on December 7, 2010, at 16:40:30
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » Conundrum, posted by psychobot5000 on December 7, 2010, at 16:10:17
> I do respond to 5ht2c antagonism, as far as I can tell, though in the long term, the response is counterproductive.
That's the part of the agomelatine effect that has proved durable for me.
The melatonin agonism thingo has not.
Posted by Conundrum on December 7, 2010, at 22:16:51
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » Conundrum, posted by psychobot5000 on December 7, 2010, at 16:10:17
Low dose prozac might help, like taking 5 mg every other day, it doesn't seem to be such a strong SSRI at that dose. I believe that at that dose it is working via 5 HT2C antagonism and 5 HT1A agonism.
> Thanks for the tip, re: ami. I do respond to 5ht2c antagonism, as far as I can tell, though in the long term, the response is counterproductive.
>
> As for the rest, both amitryp and remeron make me a bit zombieish, unfortunately.
>
> Best,
> PB
Posted by Conundrum on December 7, 2010, at 22:23:44
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by sigismund on December 7, 2010, at 16:40:30
> > I do respond to 5ht2c antagonism, as far as I can tell, though in the long term, the response is counterproductive.
>
> That's the part of the agomelatine effect that has proved durable for me.
>
> The melatonin agonism thingo has not.How do the effects manifest themselves?
I tried remeron but it pooped out, similar effect as low dose prozac, but very strong initially. Enough to get me transcribing music in my head at work. Haven't done that ins 8 years.
Posted by sigismund on December 8, 2010, at 6:51:48
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » sigismund, posted by Conundrum on December 7, 2010, at 22:23:44
To begin with I slept in. Now I don't. It's back to square one.
But I can function better on too little sleep. It feels like some kind of stimulating effect, I guess.
Posted by Conundrum on December 8, 2010, at 10:31:37
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data? » Conundrum, posted by sigismund on December 8, 2010, at 6:51:48
> To begin with I slept in. Now I don't. It's back to square one.
>
> But I can function better on too little sleep. It feels like some kind of stimulating effect, I guess.Its tempting to want to order it, but i'm skeptical that it wouldn't work in the long run, drugs like abilify and remeron pooped out, makes me think that drugs that work solely by antagonizing or agonizing receptors directly, cause fast upregulation or sensitization in me.
Posted by sigismund on December 8, 2010, at 12:46:55
In reply to Re: Doxepin binding data?, posted by Conundrum on December 8, 2010, at 10:31:37
> makes me think that drugs that work solely by antagonizing or agonizing receptors directly, cause fast upregulation or sensitization in me.
Do you have a plan?
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