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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rculater on November 30, 2010, at 17:06:35
Has anyone heard of this ?
The reason I ask is some SSRIs ive taken in the past have given me backpain which i ignored
I recently stopped Lexapro after only 6 week trial but it coincided with a dull pain in my lower back that hasn't gone away since I stopped 3 weeks ago.
Im also getting chronically tired late afternoon and am very irritable.
I read alot about adrenal fatigue - this seems to make sense. I didn't excersise while on the meds and have a clerical job.
Posted by bleauberry on November 30, 2010, at 18:52:06
In reply to Adrenal gland damage from Meds, posted by rculater on November 30, 2010, at 17:06:35
I don't know about the back pain thing. I've never heard of that being associated with hypoadrenalism.
The chronic fatigue and irritability are consistent with it.
This is an evolving science with not much known about it except for clearcut cases of obvious low cortisol or high cortisol. This is one of those topics where I feel the pioneering doctors, the alternative doctors, the integrative doctors and the naturopathic doctors are way ahead of the scientists.
My own theory....
Drugs that stimulate norepinephrine release....anything with alpha antagonism such as remeron and antipsychotics, eventually cause adrenal problems. That's because the adrenals were not intended to work at full capacity 24/7 which is what those drugs force them to do . Eventually they just can't keep up.
Drugs such as SSRIs do the same but by a different method. When serotonin is artificially increased, the genes automatically try to compensate by producing more norepinephrine. To keep things balanced according to their preprogrammed instructions. When an SSRI doesn't work, perhaps it is because the adrenals could not match the demand put on them, and the norepinephrine boost never happened. When SSRIs do work, perhaps it is because the adrenals met the demand. But eventually...months, years...they can't keep up because the demand is beyond their inherent capability on a 24/7 basis. The adrenals are meant to step up to the plate on an as needed basis, in times of fear or crisis or strain. Short bursts. But not continuous heavy demand.
I don't personally think 6 weeks of an SSRI would do that. If anything, it would uncover a hidden weakness you didn't know about that was already in existence. The adrenals would have to already be fairly weak to begin with for 6 weeks to do them in.
The body is very resilient, but not infinitely resilient.
Whatever the cause, adrenal problems are tough to correct and take a lot of time. It is a very comprehensive life changing strategy of specific food choices/avoidance, avoidance of any kind of physical or mental stress, guarded sleep schedules, herbs such as eleuthero or cordyceps, supplements such as Bs and C, some of the minerals, adrenal cortex extracts, and sometimes even a year or so at a very low dose of hydrocortisone tabs.
We don't know if you have adrenal fatigue. For about $100 to $150 you can get a lab test that checks your cortisol 4 times throughout a 24 hour period and plots it on a graph comparing it to a normal daily curve. From that you can clearly see if there is a problem or not...too high, too low, low at the wrong time, high at the wrong time, etc. There is a challenge test that shows if the adrenals respond to demand or not. That really isn't a very good test though because it basically just shows if the adrenals are dead or alive.
When cortisol is too low, the body tries to compensate by producing adrenalin or epinephrine. This results in such things as anxiety, irritability, sleep problems, etc... I personally think many people with these kinds of problems should be taking a cortisol test before proceeding with any kind of longterm treatment.
The time to heal adrenal fatigue is commonly in the one year to two year time frame and involves a purposeful strategic comprehensive plan with multiple lifestyle changes. It took a long time for them to get diseased, and it likewise takes a long time to undo the damage and to stop the things that caused the damage in the first place.
There is a lot of information on adrenal fatigue, most of it consistent from source to source, not much conflicting or confusing data. But it is a relatively new area and most doctors are not well schooled on it. So you will not have a very good prognosis unless you do the 24 hour 4 sample test first, and then read everything you can on how to fix what you find wrong. Before taking the topic any further, you first have to determine if you indeed have adrenal damage. Unlike many things in medicine, the current health of the adrenals is actually easy to test for.
Posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2010, at 21:56:38
In reply to Re: Adrenal gland damage from Meds, posted by bleauberry on November 30, 2010, at 18:52:06
Don't know age or sex but could be something infection or kidney stones as kidneys in the back. Are you running a fever? Flu also causes those symptoms also Phillipa
Posted by Hombre on December 1, 2010, at 0:00:45
In reply to Adrenal gland damage from Meds, posted by rculater on November 30, 2010, at 17:06:35
I have not only heard of this, but I know what may cause it and what may help it.
From a Chinese medicine point of view, SSRIs have a tendency to exhaust the liver and kidneys.
In this case, we are talking about the hormone regulating aspect of the kidneys, which makes sense because the adrenal glands are perched upon the kidneys. The liver part makes sense too, because SSRIs not only induce/inhibit certain liver enzymes, but also put the liver through its paces in order to be metabolized.
But back to the kidneys. According to Chinese medical theory, kidney deficiency can lead to lower back ache, as well as pain and edema in the legs. The lower back ache is classic kidney deficiency.
There are two classical formulas that help to strengthen the kidneys. They are Liu Wei Di Huang Wan and Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. The formulas are almost identical; the former is more for strengthening a weak parasympathetic nervous system response and the latter strengthens the sympathetic nervous system. The former is cooling and moistening, good for hyperthyroid type heat and inability to sleep, and the latter is warming and stimulating, good for coldness and a lack of drive.
I've taken both formulas. I took Liu Wei Di Huang Wan for a back injury accompanied by unusual thirst and heat. It cleared up in a few days, whereas painkillers and analgesics didn't do anything. I take Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan on a regular basis because my antidepressant, an SNRI, causes kidney-related symptoms: difficulty starting urination, sexual dysfunction, and apathy. Remember, this is the Chinese medicine concept of the kidneys, which includes hormones. The formulas do what they say they do, since people have been taking herbs for a very long time, and have a good idea how they work in the body.
You can google the formula names and find a number of different forms of these herbs, the cheapest being "teapills" that are an extract of an herbal decoction. We're talking about $3-5 for about a week's supply. Peanuts.
The names really aren't any stranger than "venlafaxine" or "mirtazapine", which are just nonsense words anyway. Get past the foreign-ness of these remedies and you just might find something that can really help.
Good luck getting your doctor to even put the different side-effects and symptoms together. Because he won't.
Posted by rculater on December 1, 2010, at 13:43:22
In reply to Adrenal gland damage from Meds, posted by rculater on November 30, 2010, at 17:06:35
Thanks for a comprehensive insight bleauberry
Phillipa, I have no Flu symptoms, Male near 40s
Hombre, your right, I would not even bother with my doctor in the UK.
I would like to find the test bleauberry mentioned but I doubt its is available here.
Wife said i was better on the Lex....Could be the snow making me irritable - cabin fever. Taking glucosomine Sulphate hopefully its muscular but all the abuse from meds I fear the worst.
Posted by bleauberry on December 1, 2010, at 19:44:56
In reply to Re: Adrenal gland damage from Meds, posted by Hombre on December 1, 2010, at 0:00:45
Cool. I am happy to see there is someone here that knows about Chinese medicine. My Dad, a surgeon, was fascinated when he toured China and saw pharmacies that had drawers full of all kinds of plants and herbs. They've been at it for thousands of years. They know what these plants do. Many of them have literally hundreds of scientific and clinical studies on them as well.
American medicine is focused on HOW things work. They like to be able to explain things in scientific terms. The Chinese don't care much how something works. They care what works for what symptoms. And thus maybe the strange non-scientific explanations of how they work. Regardless, they've been doing for thousands of years while American medicine has only been doing it for about 70 years.
It is so foreign to Americans though. The concept of heat versus cool, ying versus yang, and such, sounds so bizarre to the statistical compartmentalized scientific minds of Americans. But it's all basically the same, just viewed differently and worded differently.
I was first introduced to the concept of Eastern medicine when I read a book by Dr Zhang of New York, who blends Eastern and Western medicine in the fight against Lyme disease, liver disease, and hepatitis. He claims the blend of plants and medicines is better than either alone.
Thanks for the ideas. I'm going to take a look at the ones you mentioned. I wish there was a good Chinese med doctor in my area. Thanks to technology and the web though, we can get answers to questions we have, which wasn't possible 20 years ago.
American medicine....good. Chinese medicine...good. A blend of the two....best. IMO.
Posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2010, at 21:45:00
In reply to Re: Adrenal gland damage from Meds, posted by bleauberry on December 1, 2010, at 19:44:56
Only homeopathic remedy I know works in arcini montana not an herb but I have no idea how to get the knowledge. With a surgeon for a father no wonder you have learned so much. Phillipa
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