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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 36 to 60 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 16:04:22
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » europerep, posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 13:32:58
> Thanks for the nice slight "Typcial American Post". You have some far fetched idea that this is a democracy here, it is not. You can generally agree and be support but if you disagree you will be labeled uncivil. I personally think the gloves should be off and we should be allowed to say what we feel but that is not reality here. That is why many good posters left. I believe you can say what you feel and I disagree with Lou on most points but the posting of the harm drugs can/do cause is not one of them.
>
> Cheers
>
> johnjI totally agree with the first part of this post. The last part, not so much. When all someone does is come on here and post anti-medication videos without really ever connecting to the people here, they are doing something that is counterproductive to what this board is here for. He is not just warning people that medications have the possibility of doing damage, he is saying without a doubt that all medications are bad and they ALL do more harm than good, that Is his message. He is not here saying "Hey guys just want to share my experience and knowledge of how medications can do harm. I know medications have saved lives and I know they often can do more good than bad." I have no reason to believe anything other than Lou's message being that All medications do more harm than good and the only way to heal and save ourselves is through embracing Jesus as our savior. Johnj1, do you agree here, that Lou is not just saying that medication can and do cause harm, and that his message is, "Do not take any medication they always do more harm than good"?
Posted by maxime on October 24, 2010, at 19:46:55
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 16:04:22
I agree with what you wrote in the above post.
Posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 19:52:46
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 16:04:22
Thank you for your constructive post. I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me. I can't say what I really want to because I would be banned again because of the only post "happy stuff" policy by bob.
Cheers
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:19:05
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 19:52:46
> I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me.
It wouldn't bother me overmuch either to tell someone they're a pain. After all, I'd be perfectly justified right? Just telling the truth?
People generally don't enjoy the experience of being called a pain nearly as much. And have a different view of whether it's justified.
In my opinion, it's not difficult to disagree on Babble and stay civil. It doesn't take a huge vocabulary or a facility with words. My son's preschool class was pretty good with it.
It just takes a decision that no matter how others behave, you will choose to respond civilly. It doesn't mean not disagreeing. It doesn't mean being kissyface nice. It just means that you make a choice.
You don't have to make that choice. There are other choices that can be made. But (at least when Dr. Bob is around) those choices have a cost.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:23:05
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » gardenergirl, posted by europerep on October 23, 2010, at 16:16:16
> but for me, this is a so typically American statement, that touts certain values and conceptions,
Why thank you. GG's statement is one that I am proud to hear considered typically American.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:24:41
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by johnj1 on October 24, 2010, at 19:52:46
> Thank you for your constructive post. I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me. I can't say what I really want to because I would be banned again because of the only post "happy stuff" policy by bob.
>
> CheersHa ha, yeah I know what you mean. I do understand it though as people here are usually in a much more vulnerable state than people on other forums. There should be a culture of politeness and compassion, just not a culture of not being able to constructively and "politely" express frustration or criticism.
Cheers brotha,
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:19:05
> > I guess I should say the gloves shouldn't be "totally off" as I wouldn't want someone to be cursed at and called horrible names but to tell someone they are a pain wouldn't bother me.
>
> It wouldn't bother me overmuch either to tell someone they're a pain. After all, I'd be perfectly justified right? Just telling the truth?
>
> People generally don't enjoy the experience of being called a pain nearly as much. And have a different view of whether it's justified.
>
> In my opinion, it's not difficult to disagree on Babble and stay civil. It doesn't take a huge vocabulary or a facility with words. My son's preschool class was pretty good with it.
>
> It just takes a decision that no matter how others behave, you will choose to respond civilly. It doesn't mean not disagreeing. It doesn't mean being kissyface nice. It just means that you make a choice.
>
> You don't have to make that choice. There are other choices that can be made. But (at least when Dr. Bob is around) those choices have a cost.I don't know Dinah, I've seen a few circumstances where it appeared the person was being civil, but because that criticized or expressed frustration, they were warned or blocked. A while back this happened to Bleauberry a while back and me and others were a bit stumped as to why he was blocked.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:48:28
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
It could be that Dr. Bob doesn't consider it civil to criticize others. Expressing frustration should be fine. In fact, Dr. Bob asks that people express themselves in terms of their own feelings, without negatively characterizing (or criticizing) the other person.
There are some things that can't be said here. If you want to say something unpleasant *about* another poster, that probably can't be done in the civility guidelines. But I suppose I don't see why conversation is brought to a stop if one can't say something unpleasant about another person. Can't the discussion remain on the topic without getting into personalities?
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:52:56
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
However, I will admit that I am on occasion perplexed by civility rulings. Dr. Bob on occasion "reads" things differently than I do, and in a way I find surprising. I suppose that's only natural.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 21:15:19
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 20:28:23
An awful lot of energy is being poured into these situations, and in my experience, that isn't overly helpful.
Wouldn't it be more conducive to overall board discussions to just be polite?
For example, if someone asks that discussants in your thread read or view something, you can simply request that such suggestions not be made on your thread because it isn't in keeping with your wishes that everyone feel free to respond whether or not they have read anything. Dr. Bob has honored those types of requests in the past. Generalizations can be reported. Things can be handled in such a way that the energy associated with them diminishes rather than increases.
Then the discussion can get immediately back on target without lengthy diversions.
(Perhaps you can tell I've been watching a lot of dog training videos lately? But I think the same concepts apply to human interactions.)
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 21:46:30
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:52:56
I understand. I have been guilty of letting anger and frustration get the best of me and not censoring myself when I made a few personality judgments. Oddly enough, some of those times no one said anything about what I posted.
I do think we should try to avoid anything that could be construed as a personal attack. It's hard being we are only human, and suffering humans at that.
Morgan
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:02:01
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » Dinah, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 21:46:30
I agree. Very few people always live up to their best intentions. I know I surely don't.
I prefer to think of it, instead of being only human, as being *human*. We may sometimes, or even frequently, miss the mark. But since we're human we don't have to resign ourselves to acting purely on instinct.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:03:59
In reply to On a more practical note..., posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 21:15:19
>Wouldn't it be more conducive to overall board discussions to just be polite?
Absolutely. I think it's possible to say just about anything in a polite manner. If we were to all do this, there would still be things that Dr. Bob would have a problem with. I think this is why some people have left this board out of frustration over not being able to full express themselves, whether it was done politely or not.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:11:10
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:02:01
> I agree. Very few people always live up to their best intentions. I know I surely don't.
>
> I prefer to think of it, instead of being only human, as being *human*. We may sometimes, or even frequently, miss the mark. But since we're human we don't have to resign ourselves to acting purely on instinct.So what do you think about someone telling another that they have made them angry and explaining why in a polite manner?
Anyway, I know I can do better and I'm sure others here know they could as well. In this forum and in other situations/relationships, better communication is always going to improve the quality and outcome of the situation.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:15:26
In reply to Re: On a more practical note..., posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:03:59
> If we were to all do this, there would still be things that Dr. Bob would have a problem with. I think this is why some people have left this board out of frustration over not being able to full express themselves, whether it was done politely or not.
Again, I would think it would depend on what you wish to express fully. If one feels compelled to express oneself fully on the topic of the shortcomings of others, then yes, I suppose it may be impossible to do. But I would also say it may be impossible to say some things politely.
No matter how cordially and evenly you say "You are an *ss" or "Nobody can stand you", I don't think it could be considered polite.
And while it may not be "polite" to say "I am so angry at reading that" (in an angry tone) it would be perfectly civil. On the other hand, it wouldn't be all that useful in draining energy from a situation...
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:24:04
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 22:11:10
> So what do you think about someone telling another that they have made them angry and explaining why in a polite manner?
Great minds think alike. :)
I pointed out in a previous post that it is perfectly civil under Dr. Bob's guidelines to say that you are very angry. I've done it myself on many occasions. I try to own the anger as mine, because really no one else can *make* me angry. I think the problem comes in the explaining why. It's possible to do that without being uncivil. It helps to step back and look at exactly what you're explaining, because sometimes incivility can seem, in our own minds, to be nothing but a simple recitation of the facts and nothing anyone should take offense over. While in the mind of the other, it might be more judgment than fact.
Posted by maxime on October 24, 2010, at 22:40:56
In reply to Re: To Lou » maxime, posted by violette on October 23, 2010, at 23:27:27
> I didn't realize you were so concerned as it seems parasuicidal behavior might be viewed as much more acceptable, justified, validated, and worthy of sympathy than others' behavior here...
>
> Glad to know I'm not alone in reaching out to others. :)I want you to know that what you wrote above really hurt me. I've been on PB for years now and others will agree that I don't just post when I am suicidal. I haven't been parasuicidal in 15 or more years. In September and October I posted a lot about being suicidal because I WAS suicidal. I ended going to stay at a crisis centre for several weeks. They don't accept people who are parasuicidal and any such behaviour will get you kicked out the centre.
I was a mess in September and October because I had to do a washout before starting an MAOI. Usually the washout is 2 weeks, but I was a away on holiday so my washout period was closer to 4 weeks. I WAS A MESS. Being able to post on PB about how I was doing helped a great deal. It was my only support system. And for the record, I would never post that I was going to kill myself even if I had a plan. I wouldn't do that on a discussion board because there would be little anyone could do and they would be extremly worried but unable to help.
I think you had a lot of nerve to post what you did about me. You don't know me. You don't know my history with PB. You know nothing.
There, I got that off my chest so now I can let go of the hurt inside me. Thank God! I had several members send me a Babble Mail about what you posted. Why? Because they care.
Posted by Deputy Racer on October 24, 2010, at 23:08:54
In reply to Re: On a more practical note... » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:15:26
This is a general reminder to everyone:
The civility guidelines for this site prohibit posting anything which could lead others to feel accused or put down. It is possible to disagree with someone without violating those guidelines, and it is also possible to ignore posts which you find particularly distressing.
It is also important to remember that "supportive" is often in the eye of the beholder; trying to judge intention is often impossible, which is why the site guidelines focus on overt behavior.
Please follow the civility guidelines for this site. A number of suggestions have been made, both on this thread and on others, for strategies which might reduce the distress you experience reading certain posts. Two which come to mind are choosing not to open certain posts, and choosing to interact on a thread without regard for certain posts it contains.
Thank you.
Deputy Racer.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 23:32:08
In reply to Re: On a more practical note... » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:15:26
> > If we were to all do this, there would still be things that Dr. Bob would have a problem with. I think this is why some people have left this board out of frustration over not being able to full express themselves, whether it was done politely or not.
>
> Again, I would think it would depend on what you wish to express fully. If one feels compelled to express oneself fully on the topic of the shortcomings of others, then yes, I suppose it may be impossible to do. But I would also say it may be impossible to say some things politely.
>
> No matter how cordially and evenly you say "You are an *ss" or "Nobody can stand you", I don't think it could be considered polite.
>
> And while it may not be "polite" to say "I am so angry at reading that" (in an angry tone) it would be perfectly civil. On the other hand, it wouldn't be all that useful in draining energy from a situation...So you will agree, that what you, moderators, and Dr. Bob believe to be counterproductive here, is thought to be very productive and is encouraged in psychodynamic group therapy and in every day life. I do think it helps sometimes here to let someone know that it something they said angered you or was offensive in some way. I actually think it can put energy in a situation and may spark further productive discussion. I do understand what you are saying though. I guess I just wish this place was a little more like the real world or group therapy. I mean, there are moderators here to protect people just as there are therapists in group. I also think there are ways to get through to a person that is being uncivil without blocking them for a week. I do realize that this forum is much different than the group therapy setting. So maybe I shouldn't expect what applies in group to apply here. I've just never been on a forum where words were so strictly monitored and censored. Again, I do understand that the uniqueness of this forum may have something to do with such strict regulation.
Posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 23:38:50
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 22:24:04
Gotchya. Not to find something to disagree with you on, but I do believe other people can be responsible for our anger and own the reason why we our angry. This especially applies to being in live contact with someone where a person projects so much anger onto another that they feel that persons anger and begin to get angry themselves. Again I understand what you are saying here, and I believe it definitely applies to certain people and circumstances, but I also believe that when someone does something that angers someone, especially when they know that it might and they do it anyway, they are somewhat responsible for causing the other person to be angry.
Posted by europerep on October 25, 2010, at 10:47:46
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » europerep, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2010, at 20:23:05
*yawn*
it was pretty, yes.. and that was all about it.
I think I have come to the wrong place here.. you guys have different ideas about what can, and especially what can't be expected from adults when engaging in a mutually agreeable exchange.
Posted by Dinah on October 25, 2010, at 12:31:11
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » Dinah, posted by europerep on October 25, 2010, at 10:47:46
"I think I have come to the wrong place here.. you guys have different ideas about what can, and especially what can't be expected from adults when engaging in a mutually agreeable exchange."
Perhaps.
More to the point, have you had mutually agreeable exchanges on Babble in your time here? If so, then you apparently *can* have those experiences on Babble even with the restrictions on negativity towards other posters, and it might be worth sticking around. And just ignoring those conversations you might find less agreeable. If you haven't had mutually agreeable exchanges here, then of course it would be a different matter altogether.
In the end, it's what Dr. Bob considers acceptable standards of discourse that determines what is and isn't allowable here.
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 25, 2010, at 20:34:09
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » Dinah, posted by morgan miller on October 24, 2010, at 23:38:50
I like the civility guidelines here, though there are a few posters who annoy me and even anger me. But I have been on other lists and seen how quickly an on-line group can turn into mutual character assassinations, with endless recriminations and insults, post after post. Only carefully moderated groups avoid this.
Posted by maxime on October 25, 2010, at 21:04:44
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » morgan miller, posted by emmanuel98 on October 25, 2010, at 20:34:09
But I don't consider this site to be carefully monitored. Yes, PBC warnings are given to SOME people, while others get away with much worse. And the blocking thing does not work for me either.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 30, 2010, at 8:59:48
In reply to Re: I am sad and appalled » morgan miller, posted by emmanuel98 on October 25, 2010, at 20:34:09
> I like the civility guidelines here, though there are a few posters who annoy me and even anger me. But I have been on other lists and seen how quickly an on-line group can turn into mutual character assassinations, with endless recriminations and insults, post after post. Only carefully moderated groups avoid this.
emmanuel98,
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20101029/msgs/967609.html
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