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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 95. Go back in thread:
Posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 19:44:46
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Huxley, posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2010, at 19:41:38
> Having MRI of brain tomorrow. After 40 years of benzos I'll find out if I indeed do have a brain. SSRI's also. Phillipa
Good luck Phillipa.
Posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 19:48:01
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 19:44:46
Anyone on meds should watch this. It is not scare tactics, it is an ex drugrep exposing her industry.
Posted by Maxime on September 16, 2010, at 20:26:18
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
It depends on how you define brain damage. But I do believe our brains are altered from these meds. Sometimes a med works and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a med that was taken a couple of years ago and didn't will work the second time around.
Of course there are people who have had permanent cognition problems but how do we know it's from the meds, or the disease itself?
I am looking forward to reading what other people write.
Posted by morgan miller on September 16, 2010, at 21:33:48
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Huxley, posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2010, at 19:41:38
> Having MRI of brain tomorrow. After 40 years of benzos I'll find out if I indeed do have a brain. SSRI's also. Phillipa
If you can, try to get a Spect and Pet scan. Insurance might not cover either though.
Posted by morgan miller on September 16, 2010, at 21:36:08
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 19:48:01
Most of our brains are probably damaged from episodes of severe depression/anxiety and long periods of chronic depression/anxiety. I do think some medications do cause unwanted brain damage. So, for many of us, we may be suffering from damage as a result of both mental illness and medications. Yes, what a f*ck*ng nightmare.
Posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2010, at 21:50:34
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by morgan miller on September 16, 2010, at 21:36:08
Actually this MRI is to see if there is a missed problem hence why no taste or smell for over seven years. But also I'll know if I have a brain also. Wish could get Pet or Spect. Phillipa
Posted by Abby Cunningham on September 16, 2010, at 23:27:50
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2010, at 21:50:34
Good Luck Phillipa> Actually this MRI is to see if there is a missed problem hence why no taste or smell for over seven years. But also I'll know if I have a brain also. Wish could get Pet or Spect. Phillipa
Posted by Abby Cunningham on September 16, 2010, at 23:32:12
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
I believe truly that benzos are a horrible drug that I wish I had never gone on in the first place. All doctors should be obligated to tell patients about the dependency/addiction if taken longer than 2 weeks!!
I feel my life is ruined from alprazolam. I have taken it for 30 years and even though I cut the dosage by half over a long painful time, I am not the same person anxiety-wise get way worse than I ever was before benzos. I hate living this way always waiting for the anxiety attack to come on and with it the debilitating depression :(((
Posted by Conundrum on September 16, 2010, at 23:53:22
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
> What if after taking these meds such as an SSRI for a medium period of time is enough to permanently damage your brain and lead to you requiring additional medications to deal with the problems it has caused.
>
That is what I'm trying to do. I don't get what these drugs do. Its like there is no return, because the drugs even changed the way genes are expressed. I hope there is a way home. Its interesting you don't hear as many problems with the older drugs, but maybe thats because they were before the age of the web? Or maybe they were just better.
Posted by Huxley on September 17, 2010, at 2:54:03
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Abby Cunningham on September 16, 2010, at 23:32:12
> I believe truly that benzos are a horrible drug that I wish I had never gone on in the first place. All doctors should be obligated to tell patients about the dependency/addiction if taken longer than 2 weeks!!
>
> I feel my life is ruined from alprazolam. I have taken it for 30 years and even though I cut the dosage by half over a long painful time, I am not the same person anxiety-wise get way worse than I ever was before benzos. I hate living this way always waiting for the anxiety attack to come on and with it the debilitating depression :(((
>Wow abby, benzos for 30 years..!!! no wonder you are finding it hard to stop.
Its not just the bezos though, its the anti psychotics, the mood stabalisers, the ssri/nis and the MAOIs.
Where is the long term studies on getting off these drugs?
There is plenty of studies on why to get on them but studies of how and why and what happens when you get off are as rare as hens teath. Maybe because they don't want to know and are happy to hide behind the 'its your original symptoms returning' B*LLSH*T line.
I have no doubt in my mind that 20-30 years down the track the practices of modern psychiatry are going to be viewed as barberic.
Posted by Huxley on September 17, 2010, at 2:54:19
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Abby Cunningham on September 16, 2010, at 23:32:12
> I believe truly that benzos are a horrible drug that I wish I had never gone on in the first place. All doctors should be obligated to tell patients about the dependency/addiction if taken longer than 2 weeks!!
>
> I feel my life is ruined from alprazolam. I have taken it for 30 years and even though I cut the dosage by half over a long painful time, I am not the same person anxiety-wise get way worse than I ever was before benzos. I hate living this way always waiting for the anxiety attack to come on and with it the debilitating depression :(((
>Wow abby, benzos for 30 years..!!! no wonder you are finding it hard to stop.
Its not just the bezos though, its the anti psychotics, the mood stabalisers, the ssri/nis and the MAOIs.
Where is the long term studies on getting off these drugs?
There is plenty of studies on why to get on them but studies of how and why and what happens when you get off are as rare as hens teath. Maybe because they don't want to know and are happy to hide behind the 'its your original symptoms returning' B*LLSH*T line.
I have no doubt in my mind that 20-30 years down the track the practices of modern psychiatry are going to be viewed as barberic.
Posted by Huxley on September 17, 2010, at 2:58:49
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Conundrum on September 16, 2010, at 23:53:22
>
> > What if after taking these meds such as an SSRI for a medium period of time is enough to permanently damage your brain and lead to you requiring additional medications to deal with the problems it has caused.
> >
> That is what I'm trying to do. I don't get what these drugs do. Its like there is no return, because the drugs even changed the way genes are expressed. I hope there is a way home. Its interesting you don't hear as many problems with the older drugs, but maybe thats because they were before the age of the web? Or maybe they were just better.They were probably just as bad. Earlier generation antipsychotics disfigured people with TD at a much greater rate than the new ones. But your right you wouldnt hear a thing about them if the doctors had anything to do with it. Back then it was probably pretty taboo to even talk about it and the patients had no resources like this.
It would have been trust the man in the white coat or you are crazy.
I say screw them all. From the executives of the big pharma companies, to the drug reps that are trained in manipulation down to the doctors that lap up there crap.
Its rotten to the core.
Posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 6:04:38
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
> Does anyone ever wonder that?
Yes. I think it is a valid question to ask. I am convinced that prior exposures to antidepressants has made my brain more resistant to responding to them. Something is different. Perhaps this should be considered true brain damage. I don't know.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 6:36:48
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
Hi Huxley,
I completely agree with everything you say. I have often voiced the same opinions here, but people just treat me like I'm some crazy freak for doing so.
I completely agree that there is mounting evidence which calls to question both the long term safety and efficacy of SSRI medications.
I think their efficacy is way overhyped, and many people are left more disabled from their use.
Zyprexa is another example. Wonder drug one day, then diabetogenic garbage the next. Well that's great if you're not one of the casualties.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 6:42:22
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
You know what, some people are so institutionalized in the system, that their brains are hardwired to not even think the way you or I.
A lot of people here just want to believe standard medical opinion. You're not alone, but I've found if you express such opinions, you're not going to get a lot of support for that opinion here.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 6:44:45
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
I watched the video. The "revolving door syndrome" really hit me. Its so true. It could apply to pretty much everybody here.
Linkadge
Posted by violette on September 17, 2010, at 11:33:51
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
I can definitely relate to what you said. Long term studies are needed.
Also think the best way to reduce mental illness is prevention, social programs/safety nets, parenting skills, and relational (time-consuming) psychotherapy, holistic medicine, integration of nutrition into primary care, public education. People will still get MI regardless, but medications, while can increase functioning or enable people to live, put a band-aid on the problems.
With psychotherapy, mental illness would be less likely to be passed down to the next generation. Children with insecure attachments are much more likely to be offspring of parents who lacked secure childhood attachments themselves. If one goes through relational psychotherapy, it provides greater opportunity to stop the cycle of mental illness in your family. The opportunities are enhanced as people are having children later in life now.
The alternative might be personality bio- engineering...but i tend to think there's an evolutionary purpose for people to be different, more sensitive, less sensitive, extroverted, introverted. I guess i don't like the thought of medications sought or developed to numb people from their emotions, or 'erase' emotional pain, to alter the human psyche, if people can feel better by working through the therapeutic relationship.
But there's too many financial incentives to do the bio engineering.
Posted by Christ_empowered on September 17, 2010, at 11:35:42
In reply to Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Huxley on September 16, 2010, at 18:34:23
I hate to say it, but yeah, I'm pretty sure my brain is fried, and I imagine the same is true of many other people who've experienced the joys of psychiatric treatment.
The guy who wrote "Mad in America" has been writing about this lately...about how Rx drug use rates are up, but so are rates of people going on disability for mental problems. His point seems to be that, in some cases, drugs may just be prolonging misery and making madness worse instead of helping people make a better life for themselves.
I just don't know. There are so many factors, you know? B/c brain damage isn't always the worst thing that could happen to you. Some people went on to good jobs and satisfying lives after lobotomies, insulin comas, and lots of ECT (OK, not a *whole* lot of people, but still...it happened).
I think it'd be nice to see a sociological critique of the new psychiatry. Unfortunately, the new psychiatry is so well funded and pampered by society in general, and the media in particular, that any worthwhile analysis would be considered too "radical" or something.
Posted by morgan miller on September 17, 2010, at 13:34:17
In reply to entirely possible, I think, posted by Christ_empowered on September 17, 2010, at 11:35:42
While I do believe that many or most medications cause structural and functional changes in the brain that may translate to some form of damage, if someone feels good on an AD or other medication over a long period of time, and they take good care of themselves, eating well and exercising, there probably will not be any noticeable damage that interferes with someone's function and feeling of well being, especially as long as they continue taking the medication. The only reason why I had any problems after 7 years of being on Zoloft is because 5 months after stopping it I experienced a severe mixed episode, as a direct result of stress and undiagnosed bipolar, not as a result of changes in my brain that took place after being on Zoloft for 8 years. I know this because after being diagnosed I looked back over the years and realized I experienced my first mixed episode when I was 22, before I had ever been on medication. I could make the argument that excessive alcohol consumption contributed to this first mixed episode though.
After getting off Zoloft I actually functioned and felt very similar to the way I did on Zoloft. I believe on the reasons why the transition went the way it was a result of my constant religious workout/exercise routine. Being in great shape and exercising the right way can do wonders for the health and resilience of your brain.
I have several friends that have been on SSRIs and got off them and do not complain of any long term issues that they could associate with some form of brain damage. I just think it really depends on the individual and there is not the epidemic that there appears to be. We cannot continue to rely on just the people that report about their negative experiences on the internet. There are many many many people taking AD's out there that never come on to the internet because they just don't experience anything bad enough to report. So, we really don't know how the ratio between people suffering from AD use and people that are not. This issue definitely needs some close attention and extensive study.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 17, 2010, at 13:39:46
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 6:42:22
> You know what, some people are so institutionalized in the system, that their brains are hardwired to not even think the way you or I.
>
> A lot of people here just want to believe standard medical opinion. You're not alone, but I've found if you express such opinions, you're not going to get a lot of support for that opinion here.
>
> Linkadge
>Linkage, opinions like, "Antidepressants don't work" are a little too extreme for most people here that are trying to find an antidepressant that works for them. As far as risks with medications, I think there are many people the come here agree that there are risks and medications are far from being what they should be.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 18:07:31
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by violette on September 17, 2010, at 11:33:51
> but medications, while can increase functioning or enable people to live, put a band-aid on the problems.
For me, it is psychotherapy that has been the band-aid that has helped me cope with bipolar depression in the interim while I continue to seaerch for a biological treatment to remediate a brain disorder. I also like the idea that psychotherapy can help reduce the "depressive pressure" of psychosocial stress that can serve to trigger a new episode, increase chronicity, induce treatment resistance, or cause medication breakthrough.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on September 17, 2010, at 19:04:15
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 18:07:31
Well had the Mri of brain with and without contrast. I realize this wasn't a Pet Scan but they gave me a CD for the computer of the scan and it belongs to me. So I fully intend to self or try to my scan. What would I look for as brain damage? And mine would be more from 40 years on benzos and times inbetween when didn't need them? Phillipa
Posted by Conundrum on September 17, 2010, at 22:54:40
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Conundrum, posted by Huxley on September 17, 2010, at 2:58:49
Yeh the old ones did have their problems, but its not hidden from view that older drugs can cause some bad side effects. At least with the TCA's you're doctor knows memory loss and cognitive problems are legitimate when it happens with SSRIs all is denied.
This is just one example and I'm just talking about cognitive symptoms of antidepressants. Yes all APs cause TD. There is no getting around that, old or new.
BTW Huxley is an interesting handle is there a reason you chose that name?
Posted by Conundrum on September 17, 2010, at 22:58:08
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 6:42:22
I don't think you are crazy. Maybe you'll prevent someone from making an unnecessary jump on to some pills. I wish I had someone warning me when I was a kid. Now I'm using drugs to change what drugs changed. I've been off long enough to know that the problems after stopping ADs don't vanish on their own. Sometimes I"m hoping I'm just crazy and this is psychosomatic and there is a way out.
Posted by huxley on September 18, 2010, at 4:21:31
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Conundrum, posted by Huxley on September 17, 2010, at 2:58:49
Linkadge thats cool, I always have liked this quote,
'All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident'
I dont know if my opinons are true or not. I believe them to be true using my experience as evidence and others I have read.
It is a good point that maybe we are just a small sub group of people but I think that anyone who has been on SSRIs for 6-7+ years is going to have a hell of a time coming off them.
I hope, I really hope that any changes to my mind can be undone and I can get back to where I was before I started taking anything.
Because life has just become a balancing act of a cocktail of medications, it consumes your life.
If they could develop a medication that would work and work consistantly and not poop out then I would have no problem taking it because I have a genuine problem, like most here. We are not wired to be able to cope with life as easily as others there is no doubt about that.
But are we being ethically delt with by psychiatry? No I dont think so. I think there treatment is quite brutal and dangerous.
I wonder how many people have killed themselves beause of med induced states? I know the times I have been suididal is from medications.
Dont take your SSRIs for a day and you will be suicidal. Dont take your APs for a couple of days and you will be suicidal. Take to much of an SSRI and you will get into an agitated state which will be described as bipolar.
The huxley handle comes from Aldous Huxley. If you have a minute read up on him. An interesting man.
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