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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2010, at 19:12:16
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » sigismund, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:31:50
What about MS contin used in pain management in cancer? Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:06:08
There is simply no conclusive evidence that marijuanna actually causes schizophrenia. The other studied possibility is that those (like us) with psychiatric disorders seek to use the drug to reduce anhedonia, insomnia, depression etc. i.e. counteract schizophrenia prodrome syptoms that, for some, enevitably progresses to schizophrenia.
The highy anticholinergic TCAs have been well known to precipitate mania and psychotic states in some patients. Does that mean we get rid of the drugs? No, it just means we become more aware of possible side effects, and exercise more judicious, prudent prescription.
You're not doing anyone any favors by forcing the substance further underground to be subjected to lacing and other contamination. There's where the risk of adverse reactions is greatest.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:04:54
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 18:26:15
>I know of people in whom it precipitated a >breakdown.
I know people in whom wellbutrin has precipitated a breakdown.
I had a breakdown on parnate which required hospitalization.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:09:50
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2010, at 19:12:16
The substance cannabidol (or was it cannabinol) actually has potent *antipsychotic* effects. In animal models it counteracts the schizophrenogenic effects of ketamine and/or high dose amphetamine. Interstingly, it is devoid of the adverse motor effects of traditional antipsychotics.
Could it be that schizophrenics were initially exposed to stuff with high cannabidol content - and actually experienced improvement in psychotic state?
I remember reading about studies which suggested it was the THC / cannabidol ratio which was a predictor of the adverse effects people experienced with marijuanna. The THC will give you the "high", but other constituents are perhaps what draws psychiaric patients to it.
Posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 20:15:08
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
>There is simply no conclusive evidence that marijuanna actually causes schizophrenia.
Many things are not conclusive, but there is evidence. If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:29:48
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
>The highy anticholinergic TCAs have been well known to precipitate mania and psychotic states in some patients. Does that mean we get rid of the drugs? No, it just means we become more aware of possible side effects, and exercise more judicious, prudent prescription.
TCAs are made by clean cut Western scientists, whereas marijuana is smoked by Mexicans :)
We had the same thing here, except it was opium and the Chinese.
Not so much racism as xenophobia.
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:32:55
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:09:50
>The substance cannabidol (or was it cannabinol) actually has potent *antipsychotic* effects. In animal models it counteracts the schizophrenogenic effects of ketamine and/or high dose amphetamine. Interstingly, it is devoid of the adverse motor effects of traditional antipsychotics.
>Could it be that schizophrenics were initially exposed to stuff with high cannabidol content - and actually experienced improvement in psychotic
state?Yes, it could.
I wish I could find that video on youtube. I'd post a link to it.
It looked magical to me.
Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 20:15:08
>If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
If you a predisposed to schizophrenia you might (like me) be the kind of person who smoked it out of a desire to change subjective reality regardless of outcome.
So it's illegal in order to protect us.
If you are predisposed to schizophrenia, you might feel alienated from society and want to try it just because it is illegal.
Posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 22:12:52
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
> >If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
>
> If you a predisposed to schizophrenia you might (like me) be the kind of person who smoked it out of a desire to change subjective reality regardless of outcome.
>
> So it's illegal in order to protect us.
>
> If you are predisposed to schizophrenia, you might feel alienated from society and want to try it just because it is illegal.I totally understand why people genetically predisposed to schizophrenia smoke weed, I was just making a point to Linkage that it would be in the best interest of the genetically predisposed to stay away from regardless of the way it made them feel.
I believe one of the reasons why people genetically predisposed to schizophrenia try drugs like marijuana at a young age is because they were neglected or abused and are looking for an escape. This neglect or abuse or both are also likely to have contributed to the development of the illness for many.
I see no reason to keep marijuana illegal. There will be NO change in availability of the drug once it is legalized. I have Never heard of anyone having a difficult time buying marijuana and getting their hands on it. The fact that it is illegal makes almost NO impact on availability and ease of obtainment. Marijuana is everywhere and law enforcement has better things to do that chase those that sell and use a drug that is more benign than alcohol.
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:28:27
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
> There is simply no conclusive evidence that marijuanna actually causes schizophrenia.
Sorry, but I didn't say that. I indicated that it will accelerate its development. Whether or not it actually precipitates psychosis has also been demonstrated.
A simple Google search will reveal a plethora of literature indicating that there are associations between the earlier onset of schizophrenia and the precipitation of psychotic reactions.
I think that marijuana deserves more research before it is deemed safe and effective for treating depression or anxiety disorders. THC and dronabinol may be more of a culprit as psychotomimetics than the other cannibinoids marijuana contains.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:38:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:09:50
> The substance cannabidol (or was it cannabinol) actually has potent *antipsychotic* effects.
Was this the Schwarcz study n=6?
- Scott
Posted by europerep on August 18, 2010, at 15:28:58
In reply to Re: MJ never reved me up, posted by morgan miller on August 16, 2010, at 22:32:01
> Yeah it is not normal to get a hyperactive reaction to marijuana. I get hyperactive and hyperverbal on marijuana, at least I used to. I think this reaction IS paradoxical.
>
>
no man, seriously :)
the eating thing is what you guys call "the munchies", it's the most common effect of all actually (link was refering to it).. hyperverbal, that's a good way to express it, is a totally regular reaction to good weed.. of course, it is dosage-related, and it depens on the quality.. if you have good MJ and you only get stoned in the sense of "not wanting to move", you either smoked too much, or it is a heavy indica strain.. but there are sativa strains who are totally uplifting.. everyhting that's "haze" is usually uplifting, for example.. hence all the musicians who just love to compose and create on silver haze.. also, it is important that marijuana does not equal cannabis product. everything that's tinctures, for example, is usually hash-based and has a much higher thc content, and is therefore much more heavy on you.. but talking a lot is absolutely definitely not a paradoxical reaction.. it's an effect especially often observed in beginners, but for me it used to be my favorite effect throughout all the time I smoked..
Posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 20:39:25
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:06:08
That's a good question. I guess no one really knows but I can tell you what I think
Heavy use could precipitate a mild schizophrenic-like experience. Oversmoking at any time can cause a similar paranoia, seeing thngs that aren't there, hearing things. It isn't really schizo though it feels like it and looks it, it is just plain too stoned. Shouldn't have smoked that much.
In longterm chronic use, I think the Indica strains have a very low likelihood of causing schizo-like problems. The Sativas are much more risky.
I have never actually heard of, seen, or read about documented schizo from mj. Personally I feel the benefits of mj greatly outweigh any risks. That is, if it is used responsibly. Medical purposes only require very small doses. If someone is smoking a lot more than they should, then yeah something might get weird.
> Where do you place the importance of the psychomimetic effects of marijuana and its potential to precipitate schizophrenia earlier in life? Of course, very few psychotropics are without untoward effects. However, I am curious how you weigh them against the potential benefits.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 21:03:15
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
Quote from one of the earlier posts:
"So it's illegal in order to protect us."
If that were true, then why are not cigarettes illegal? That's a leading cause of multiple diseases and death. Pot never killed anyone or gave them a disease. Well, I mean, I am sure someone somewhere has been injured by longterm chronic smoking, but really, no contest when compared to tobacco.
Same with alcohol. No contest. Drunk drivers kill all the time, mj drivers hardly ever.
We know alcohol and cigarettes cause serious problems and death on a wide scale. But they remain legal and widely accepted as ok. We have not even a small fraction of evidence pointing to mj having that kind of destructive power. On the contrary, what evidence we do have points to it as having healing power.
So the reason it is illegal has nothing to do with protecting us.
Several states now have made it legal with a prescription. Punishments in some states have been lowered to not much more than a traffic ticket for possession or cultivation of small personal amounts.
Some countries view it as so illegal that the punishment might be life in jail or execution. Other countries allow full cultivation, genetic modification, and buying it to smoke in your local coffee shop.
The story of why it is illegal is pretty interesting. Several variables involved with that. But none of them have anything to do with protecting our health.
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 21:09:33
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » SLS, posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 20:39:25
> In longterm chronic use, I think the Indica strains have a very low likelihood of causing schizo-like problems. The Sativas are much more risky.
How are the two strains different?
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 21:35:04
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » SLS, posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 20:39:25
>I have never actually heard of, seen, or read about documented schizo from mj.
Posted by sigismund on August 18, 2010, at 22:07:51
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 21:03:15
>If that were true, then why are not cigarettes illegal?
They only deem it necessary to protect us from some things rather than others?
There are heaps of damaging things that are legal, but not so many when it comes to anything remotely psychoactive, especially if it's not straight up and down and it looks like someone might be enjoying it.
Posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:36:16
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 21:09:33
> > In longterm chronic use, I think the Indica strains have a very low likelihood of causing schizo-like problems. The Sativas are much more risky.
>
> How are the two strains different?
>
>
> - ScottIndicas are benzo-like, Sativas are stimulant-like.
Most strains are hybrid blends of varying percentages.
Posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:44:30
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 21:35:04
Thanks for sharing the posts on the studies.
I found the following line particularly interesting:
" It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use (by a factor of four)."
Four times worse? Wow. But it's legal. Ok.
I think it is easy to accidentally get distracted off the subject in studies like those.
On one hand we are talking about medicinal use of mJ which is a completely different ballgame than teenage chronic abuse of mj. The abusers are smoking a bunch of it when they don't need it, abusing it.
The patients are smoking small controlled doses for specific benefits, getting high not being one of them.
The studies only looked at the abusers, not patients. The smoking habits of each of those two groups are completely different.
Posted by morgan miller on August 19, 2010, at 22:30:01
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » morgan miller, posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:44:30
>I found the following line particularly interesting:
>" It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use (by a factor of four)."
>Four times worse? Wow. But it's legal. Ok.
Ha ha, yeah alcohol is bad news, much worse that MJ in many ways. I have to admit though that alcohol is still my preferred drug of choice.
>On one hand we are talking about medicinal use of mJ which is a completely different ballgame than teenage chronic abuse of mj. The abusers are smoking a bunch of it when they don't need it, abusing it.
Yep..Also, while the brain is still developing at such young ages, drug abuse is more likely to have a greater negative impact.
Posted by Zyprexa on August 19, 2010, at 23:35:05
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 21:35:04
After reading that.. I think that mj made me schizo. My first couple of times smoking mj, were very psychotic and incapasitating. My first time I lay on a bed unable to get up for several hours (2 maybe), second time I smoked and hit the floor right after smoking. When I finaly got up, my thinking was realy messed up and I didn't see life in a way that made sense, almost like a dream. Anouther time after that I would smoke and pass out. This has happened a lot, where I could not function and would be incapasitated for some time. On the other hand there were many times I could function just fine after a smoke, usualy when I was use to it. I smoked pretty much non stop for a bunch of years when I felt fine on it. Maybe it was different strains or lacing. But ya I think I was psychotic on mj for a number of years at times. I have heard that my diagnosis was mj depression. And thinking back in time I think mj may have made me psychotic at times.
I will say that alcohol never did any of this to me. Usualy (right from the beginning) alcohol was always a lift in mood and never have I heard any voicis more on alcohol more than sober.
Posted by Zyprexa on August 19, 2010, at 23:48:05
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » morgan miller, posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:44:30
I will say I always did better with small doses.
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:29:08
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 20:15:08
>Many things are not conclusive, but there is >evidence. If you are genetically predisposed or >possibly genetically predisposed to >schizophrenia, why risk it?
Pretty much all there is are correlational studies. Schizophrenia is also "correlated" with high tobacco use, for instance. For a while they were suggesting that the tobacco exaserbated (or even caused) schizophrenia in "succeptable" people.
On the contrary they are finding mechanisms by which nicotine improves schizophrenic symptoms. It increases gaba levels in the schizophrenic brain and also appears to improve cognition and anxiety levels. Newer studies suggest that schizophrenics who smoke tobacco have a better long term prognosis than those who don't.
It all depends on how the study is conducted and what the researchers are trying to prove.
Newer researchers have tried to look for mechanisms by which marijaunna might actually be used theraputically for schizophrenia.
It has been known for a while that there is high overlap of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. Many of the medications used for either illness are interchangeable. Some cases of schizophrenia are often misdiagnosed as bipolar. There are many bipolar patients who claim that marijuanna acts as a mood stabilizer for them - calming both the highs and the lows. By the same tolken, it could have theraputic utility in schizophrenia.
Some researchers have found greatly diminished levels of anandamide in the schizophrenic brain. They propose that schizophrenics smoke to replace the cannabanoid receptor activation that would be given by the missing anandamide.
Of course, if you don't need to smoke it..don't. But, if for some reason it works for you, I wouldn't be thrown off by a unproven potential ill effect.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:47:15
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by Zyprexa on August 19, 2010, at 23:48:05
Correlation does not imply causation. That an individual was diagnosed with schizophrenia after marijuanna use does not prove that marijuanna caused the schizophrenia.
I smoked something once that made me feel very "off". I later learned that it was MJ laced with ketamine. I never had the same experience before or since.
Thats the problem with stuff on the street. You get all these case reports that are essentially meaningless because the same agent is not being tested.
Also, short term drug effects don't correlate with the symptoms of a disease. Enough amphetamine can cause mania in just about anyone.
If somebody has a manic episode on amphetamine, does it mean they have bipolar disorder? If a bipolar individual has their first manic episode on amphetamine, does it mean that the amphetamine caused bipolar?
Antidepressants have been linked to earlier onset of bipolar disorder in those with genetic susceptability to bipolar. That being said, we don't ban the use of antidepressnts for this reason.
I remember reading how, schizophrenics tend to use MJ in a very particular dose range. One that increases prefrontal dopaminergic neurotransmission without significantly affecting limbic dopamine neurotransmission. I.e. to reduce negative symptoms, not to get high.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on August 20, 2010, at 15:39:24
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:47:15
Hey Link, I think the primary concern over marijuana and schizophrenia is the abuse of marijuana by young teens increasing the chance of developing the illness. I don't think we can deny the fact that marijuana abuse or any drug abuse during early adolescence may carry the risk of damaging the brain and disrupting it's development in a way that increases the chance of developing any type of mental illness. A developing brain is especially susceptible to the effect of mind altering substances.
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