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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SheilaC on July 7, 2010, at 18:21:22
My doc has really urged me to give up my morning coffee. Since I am BPII, he doesn't like the idea of me having caffeine.
It's the only caffeine I have. I kicked it for a while, but have picked it up again and am having a really hard time giving it up.
Anyone else kick the coffee habit?
Decaff just isn't the same!
Posted by linkadge on July 7, 2010, at 18:32:15
In reply to Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by SheilaC on July 7, 2010, at 18:21:22
I really don't know if quitting a morning coffee is going to make a major improvement in your state.
I've been on and off coffee for years now. The last time I was off for a month. I just feel better with moderate coffee intake (better mood less depression etc).
They just blanket tell everbody to get off coffee.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 7, 2010, at 18:38:33
In reply to Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by SheilaC on July 7, 2010, at 18:21:22
> My doc has really urged me to give up my morning coffee. Since I am BPII, he doesn't like the idea of me having caffeine.
Did he give any details as to how caffeine would hurt you?
- Scott
Posted by Conundrum on July 7, 2010, at 21:14:12
In reply to Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by SheilaC on July 7, 2010, at 18:21:22
Man I had some coffee this morning, iced with sugar that I made from the pot at work. I was so hyper and excited I thought maybe I really was manic. Then it wore of like 30 mins later and I realized I just hadn't had coffee in a real long time. The caffeine in soda doesn't seem to be the same.
I guess he is just worried that if you are in a manic state it will exagerate it.
Posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2010, at 0:34:18
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar? » SheilaC, posted by Conundrum on July 7, 2010, at 21:14:12
Last true panic attack I had was the first ever starbucks iced coffee and it flipped me out. I drink tea and iced green tea now. Phillipa
Posted by herpills on July 8, 2010, at 8:37:46
In reply to Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by SheilaC on July 7, 2010, at 18:21:22
Is it making any symptoms worse? I don't see any reason to give it up. How much do you drink in the morning?
herpills
Posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 9:18:52
In reply to Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by SheilaC on July 7, 2010, at 18:21:22
I think your doctor wants to see if stopping coffee will help to stabilize you even further. Coffee is quite a powerful drug and can throw off brain chemistry enough to have a lasting effect throughout the day. I know some people that cannot drink coffee or even eat chocolate after 3PM because they are not able to fall asleep 9 hours later, even the initial high wears off long before bedtime.
I say just give it a try for a month and see how it goes. What do have to lose?
Posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 10:14:58
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 9:18:52
Sure coffee could throw 'off' brain chemistry, but it could also throw it 'on'.
Large studies suggest that regular coffee drinkers have a lower risk of suicide.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 10:53:58
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 10:14:58
Linkage, I think those are the people that have a brain chemistry that reacts well to coffee. Everyone's chemistry is different, as I know you know, and people with bipolar tend to be very sensitive to coffee and other caffeinated beverages. I understand this does not necessarily apply to everyone with bipolar. Still, most everyone I have met that is bipolar do better in the long run when they eliminate coffee from their diet.
Posted by SLS on July 8, 2010, at 11:59:03
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar? » linkadge, posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 10:53:58
> Still, most everyone I have met that is bipolar do better in the long run when they eliminate coffee from their diet.
I find that when I eliminate caffeine, my energy level is more stable throughout the day. In addition, when I need caffeine for special circumstances, it has a more potent positive effect.
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 13:54:10
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by SLS on July 8, 2010, at 11:59:03
> > Still, most everyone I have met that is bipolar do better in the long run when they eliminate coffee from their diet.
>
> I find that when I eliminate caffeine, my energy level is more stable throughout the day. In addition, when I need caffeine for special circumstances, it has a more potent positive effect.
>
>
> - ScottI experience the same thing.
Posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 14:08:38
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar? » linkadge, posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 10:53:58
I don't know. I had been diagnosed with bipolar at one point. I don't know if I am or not... but nevertheless, I just feel better when I drink coffee. I don't mean slosh back 10 cups a day, but it seems to keep me afloat during particularly demanding times. It also helps offset some of the nasty side effects of medications.
When I was on lithium carbonate 1500mg, the depression and sense of blah was overwhelming. Coffee was about the only thing that helped combat the mood stabilizer blahs.
It also helped counteract certain side effects from SSRI's. It helped reduce SSRI sexual dysfunction. Not to mention, it helped offset SSRI apathy.
I'm just saying...know yourself and know how coffee affects you. I realize that some people can't have a cup without a panic attack. But I would argue that coffee is just part of the working mix for some bipolars.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 14:14:34
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 13:54:10
I don't care so much about my energy levels, as my mood disorder has never much affected my energy levels.
For me, coffee helps:
a) break patters of antisociality
b) me get started on tasks I am avoiding
c) provides some relief from boredom and apathy
d) has a grounding effect during stressful or
unpredictable times
e) helps me relax
f) ofsets medication side effects
g) helps restore some feelings of well being during a major depressive episde.Linkadge
Posted by Justherself54 on July 8, 2010, at 14:26:10
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 14:08:38
I'm not sure I could give up my java. My GP has recommended I cut back or give it up..but I need it to get going in the morning. I sometimes have a cup or two in the afternoon to get me through my 3:00 pm slump. I love my java!
Posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 15:11:30
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by Justherself54 on July 8, 2010, at 14:26:10
> I'm not sure I could give up my java. My GP has recommended I cut back or give it up..but I need it to get going in the morning. I sometimes have a cup or two in the afternoon to get me through my 3:00 pm slump. I love my java!
You might be surprised after getting over the initial withdrawal hump and dependence how much smooth natural energy stores your body has. Sometimes just taking the pain of being tired on our days when we did not get enough sleep is better for our natural ability to maintain positive energy in the long run.
I think diet, exercise, and some supplements are better less physiologically addictive ways of maintaining healthy energy levels and good regular sleep patterns.
This may not be the case with you but it is something to consider. Did you need coffee on a regular basis in high school or college? Did you get hooked because you tried it one time when you were tired and needed it and it worked so you kept on drinking coffee? Do you think it is possible you are physically addicted and your body has just grown into needing it?
I worry about all those young kids out there drinking energy drinks at a young age and getting addicted. They will develop never knowing what it is like to be able to live with healthy natural energy levels and a natural ability to deal with occasional sleep deprivation through healthy diet and exercise.
Posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 15:17:43
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 14:08:38
I hear what your sayin Link.
I'm not opposed to coffee drinking, I just think that it is an addictive substance like many others that people can grow dependent on. I also think it can interfere with healthy metabolism and contribute to weight gain for some people.
There are healthy antioxidants in coffee, but I believe you can get the same antioxidants in a good decaf. I could be wrong about that.
Like Scott, I drink caffeinated beverages only on special occasions when I really feel like it might help. Even then though, it seems to make it harder for me to focus after a few hours and destabilizes me physiologically. But that is just me of course.
There are caffeine alternatives in some drinks from sources like guarana and yerba mate that are thought to have a smoother longer-lasting less jittery effect than the caffeine in coffee. I think the same goes for green tea.
Posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 16:14:38
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 15:11:30
Actually, one of the main reasons I drink coffee now is on account of its heath benefits. Flavanoids in coffee are highly potent antioxidants. Caffiene is neuroprotective in several animal models of neurodegeneration. Regular coffee (caffinated) consumption is associated with lower risks of Parkinsons disease, suicide as well as type II diabetes. Coffee consumption is also linked with lower rates of certain cancers. Caffiene has antidepressant effects in animal models of depression. The beta carbolines in coffee are monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Plus, I just enjoy it.
All together, I'm in no rush to drop my daily coffee.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 16:24:39
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 15:17:43
>I'm not opposed to coffee drinking, I just think >that it is an addictive substance like many >others that people can grow dependent on.
Define addictive. Most people I know who consume coffee have a fixed amount they consume per day. Its not like crack cocaine where people just do more and more. Animal models of addiction do not readily distinguish caffiene as an addictive substance.
Sure, there is withdrawl, but there is withdrawl from most of the psychiatric medications we ingest every day.
>I also think it can interfere with healthy >metabolism and contribute to weight gain for >some people.
I don't think there is any evidence to suggest this. There is evidence to the contrary. That is, studies show coffee consumption is linked to lower rates of type II diabetes. The dopaminergic neuroprotective effects of caffiene too, might insure that people don't develop symptoms of subclinical dopaminergic neurodistruction (i.e. pre-parkinsons). I am just generally more active too when I consume moderate amounts of caffinated coffee.
>There are healthy antioxidants in coffee, but I >believe you can get the same antioxidants in a >good decaf. I could be wrong about that.
Yes, there are still antioxidants in decaf, but some of the health benefits (diabetes prevention, neuroprotection, suicide prevention) appear to not extend to decaf.
>Like Scott, I drink caffeinated beverages only >on special occasions when I really feel like it >might help. Even then though, it seems to make >it harder for me to focus after a few hours and >destabilizes me physiologically. But that is >just me of course.
Just know yourself, thats all I'm saying. Caffiene is a drug, and drugs affect people differently.
>There are caffeine alternatives in some drinks >from sources like guarana and yerba mate that >are thought to have a smoother longer-lasting >less jittery effect than the caffeine in coffee. >I think the same goes for green tea.
Coffee doesn't usually make me jittery, unless I swig the whole cup at once. Usually I consume a cup over the course of a few hours.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 16:40:11
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 16:14:38
> Actually, one of the main reasons I drink coffee now is on account of its heath benefits. Flavanoids in coffee are highly potent antioxidants. Caffiene is neuroprotective in several animal models of neurodegeneration. Regular coffee (caffinated) consumption is associated with lower risks of Parkinsons disease, suicide as well as type II diabetes. Coffee consumption is also linked with lower rates of certain cancers. Caffiene has antidepressant effects in animal models of depression. The beta carbolines in coffee are monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Plus, I just enjoy it.
>
> All together, I'm in no rush to drop my daily coffee.
>
> LinkadgeIn your case and many others there really is no reason to stop drinking coffee. I love the taste of coffee and wish it didn't feel so toxic when I drank it. So I'm a bit envious of your relationship with coffee.
Because the stimulating effects of coffee are so short-lived, I don't think it is an effective way to treat depression. I could be wrong though.
Posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 16:58:51
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by linkadge on July 8, 2010, at 16:24:39
>Coffee doesn't usually make me jittery, unless I swig the whole cup at once. Usually I consume a cup over the course of a few hours.
You do realize many coffee drinkers to not moderate their drinking and spread it out like this.
>>I also think it can interfere with healthy >metabolism and contribute to weight gain for >some people.
>I don't think there is any evidence to suggest this.
I can't find a good source, but I read somewhere that when your body comes down from caffeine your metabolism slows down as well-to a level lower than before you started consuming caffeine. This could be wrong I admit. It just seemed to make sense when I read it.
Posted by Hombre on July 9, 2010, at 15:59:40
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by morgan miller on July 8, 2010, at 16:58:51
Caffeine increases cortisol. Increased levels of cortisol can lead to weight gain (survival adaptation?).
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/gill3.htm
When I was most ill I could not handle any caffeine at any time of the day. It would make me nervous, cause blood sugar to drop suddenly, and exacerbate insomnia.
Coffee is still a little strong, but I can drink a lot of green/oolong tea and the energy is pretty smooth.
Posted by linkadge on July 9, 2010, at 18:00:27
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by Hombre on July 9, 2010, at 15:59:40
SSRIs can increase cortisol.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on July 9, 2010, at 18:26:56
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by linkadge on July 9, 2010, at 18:00:27
SSRIs can also lower cortisol. Were we talking about SSRIs?
Anyway, for anyone that love coffee and feels good when they drink it without any health issues, I say drink up. Like I said before, I love coffee, just can't drink it regularly.
Posted by linkadge on July 9, 2010, at 21:24:55
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar? » linkadge, posted by morgan miller on July 9, 2010, at 18:26:56
Not all antidepressants have an anti-cortisol effect. Those with a track record for reducing cortisol are the TCA's, lithium, mirtazapine and perhaps tianepetine. With others, some studies suggest one thing, some suggest another.
Heres one on sertaline and cortisol.
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?doi=10.1159/000054954
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on July 9, 2010, at 22:59:00
In reply to Re: Caffeine and Bipolar?, posted by linkadge on July 9, 2010, at 21:24:55
I understand..Well at least anecdotally never felt cortisol being raised by Zoloft. Maybe I just didn't notice it. Or, maybe it simply did not have that effect on me. One study doesn't mean that the drug absolutely has this effect across the board. I also never gained weight as a result of Zoloft. I realize that is just me.
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