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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dan_MI on June 12, 2010, at 15:08:33
My history for tinkering with my meds seems to be coming back.
A lightbulb in my head went off last night: Can I used pseudoephedrine to help me study, and then "turn off the switch" with propranolol?
The experiment has begun. I did enough research to see that it won't kill me, but I feel like a hypocrite for telling others they shouldn't experiment. Oh well, I am mentally ill...
Posted by Deneb on June 12, 2010, at 16:25:20
In reply to Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by Dan_MI on June 12, 2010, at 15:08:33
I've never tried pseudoephedrine for studying, but I have used caffeine. Caffeine seems to help me study.
When I get too stimulated sometimes I use propranolol.
So I guess I kind of do the same thing!
Posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 7:54:27
In reply to Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by Dan_MI on June 12, 2010, at 15:08:33
I would avoid upper downer combinations till the last possible minute. When you give your brain a chance to let go and relax on its own, it will do a better job at consolidating what it has learned.
Also, watch the propanolol for math. A certain amount of adrenaline will improve / facilitate spacial reasoning. If you use it for tests, I would disolve the drug in water, then drink it *as needed* during the test if anxiety gets too high.
Linkadge
Posted by Dan_MI on June 13, 2010, at 8:47:58
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 7:54:27
The experiment went OK. I'd say I studied about an hour more than average, and then went running. I noticed by leg was very restless when I got back, so I took 40 mg of propranolol. I felt extra numb, but later I went to sleep later with no problem.
Pseudoephedrine works as a study aid really only once or twice before it has no effect, and then I don't use it for weeks or months (until I really need to focus again).
The propranolol gives me a sort of cold reasoning ability which helps me attack problems which would normally intimidate me. My test scores went way up as a result.
I sort of feel like I'm cheating, but everyone seems to agree the amount of lithium and lamictal I take might be at least partly responsible for the cognitive difficulties I've had at school this time around.
Posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 12:17:48
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by Dan_MI on June 13, 2010, at 8:47:58
In reality, using a drug to help whats in you come out is not cheating.
The main thing is using medications in a safe and responsible way. For the most part (for me) coffee is the most effective cognative enhancer aside from perhaps omega-3.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on June 13, 2010, at 14:23:23
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 12:17:48
> For the most part (for me) coffee is the most effective cognative enhancer aside from perhaps omega-3.
Coffee does much more for me than amphetamine. However, I think this might be a consequence of my depressive illness.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 18:37:24
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by SLS on June 13, 2010, at 14:23:23
If a drug company could patent coffee, it would have been done a while back. Perhaps, it would be indicated for narcolepsy, sleep wake cycle disorders, cognative disorders, sexual problems, etc. Not a cure all, but certainly worth having in the medicine cabinet.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on June 13, 2010, at 18:54:21
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 18:37:24
> If a drug company could patent coffee, it would have been done a while back. Perhaps, it would be indicated for narcolepsy, sleep wake cycle disorders, cognative disorders, sexual problems, etc. Not a cure all, but certainly worth having in the medicine cabinet.
Does coffee work better than caffeine pills?
- Scott
Posted by Deneb on June 13, 2010, at 19:21:26
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by Dan_MI on June 13, 2010, at 8:47:58
I really like propranolol for test taking, but not for studying. I read that propranolol interferes with the ability to learn, but I figured it would be OK to take in a test situation because I am not learning at that point, but applying what I've learned. I find the anxiety from test taking really hinders my performance otherwise.
So I like to drink coffee while I study and then use propranolol for the test.
This thread is interesting to me because I am going back to school soon and need to perform well.
Posted by Dan_MI on June 13, 2010, at 21:22:55
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus? » linkadge, posted by SLS on June 13, 2010, at 18:54:21
Coffee is better, I think, downright invigorating.
Posted by Dan_MI on June 13, 2010, at 21:34:11
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus? » Dan_MI, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2010, at 19:21:26
It definitely helps me study. I get very nervous and discouraged when I'm doing new math problems.
I seem to be able to reason thoroughly and slowly, with confidence. I used to just skim directions & word problems and that cost me a problem on a test. Problems in the back of the book sent waves of butterflies through my stomach.
Now I think I may be able to ride this thing into upper level classes.
Welcome back to school!
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 14, 2010, at 8:17:18
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 12:17:48
> For the most part (for me) coffee is the most >effective cognative enhancer aside from perhaps >omega-3.
>
> Linkadge
>i've only ever drunken coffee casually, but i find it tends to make me feel kinda weird and foggy and euphoric; when i try to read, for example, everything's kinda a blur. i have a similar reaction to one-off doses of amphetamine and nicotine. is there a similar adjustment period one has to go through with coffee?
Posted by linkadge on June 14, 2010, at 13:59:43
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus? » Dan_MI, posted by Deneb on June 13, 2010, at 19:21:26
The problem is that the amount of norepinephrine which is beneficial to a given cogitive task depends on the task.
Working with highly spacial, novel tasks appear to be facilitated by norepinephrine. Examples might be novel pattern recognition (geometry), maze solving, understanding new instructions or applying skills to novel tasks.
Some tasks deteriorate under high norepinephrine. Norepinephrine activates protein kinase C which can help in the formation of new memories, but can simultaniously block the activation of previously established memories.
If you have a task which is highly dependant on the ability to retrieve established memory, then a hypernoradrenergic state might be detrimental. Examples of this would be the ability to recall a list of names or telephone numbers which you had previously learned. Learning a *new* list of telephone numbers however would benefit from higher a norepinephrine / acetylcholine ratio.
Elevated PKC appears to block activation of the hipocampus. It can also supress the activation of the cerebral cortex (the ability to reason). I.e. comparing and contrasting two ideas. The fight or flight response doesn't really require deep reflective throught.
Playing an instrument is clearly not facilitated by a hypernoradrenergic state. The norepinehprine makes the hands shake and blocks the ability to access prior memories (the music you had memorized). OTOH, if your skill is to listen to a new melody and play it back, high norepinephrine might be beneficial (as it increases working memory).
To lower norepinephrine (or the consequences or hypernoradrenergic states) one can take a beta blocker, or a PKC inhibitor. Both have been shown to ameleorate some of stress induced cognitive deficicts mentioned.
As a rule of thumb, I like to always try the test on the same medications that I normally take when performing the task. Omega-3 is great at blocking PKC in the days or hours preceeding a stresful event. Sometimes though, taking too much of a beta blocker dulls the cognition. Be careful if you need to be on the ball for new information or instructions.
Seeing as most math tests are a *combination* of recall and novel application. I like to go into a test as sober as possible. Go through the test and complete what you can while the noradrenaline is high. Then if you need to relax a little bit to reflect on the memory components, perhaps drink some beta blocker you have disolved in your water.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on June 14, 2010, at 15:24:51
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by linkadge on June 14, 2010, at 13:59:43
You amaze me.
- Scott
Posted by Dan_MI on June 15, 2010, at 5:25:45
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by linkadge on June 14, 2010, at 13:59:43
And in the end...I ran out of time!
> The problem is that the amount of norepinephrine which is beneficial to a given cogitive task depends on the task.
>
> Working with highly spacial, novel tasks appear to be facilitated by norepinephrine. Examples might be novel pattern recognition (geometry), maze solving, understanding new instructions or applying skills to novel tasks.
>
> Some tasks deteriorate under high norepinephrine. Norepinephrine activates protein kinase C which can help in the formation of new memories, but can simultaniously block the activation of previously established memories.
>
> If you have a task which is highly dependant on the ability to retrieve established memory, then a hypernoradrenergic state might be detrimental. Examples of this would be the ability to recall a list of names or telephone numbers which you had previously learned. Learning a *new* list of telephone numbers however would benefit from higher a norepinephrine / acetylcholine ratio.
>
> Elevated PKC appears to block activation of the hipocampus. It can also supress the activation of the cerebral cortex (the ability to reason). I.e. comparing and contrasting two ideas. The fight or flight response doesn't really require deep reflective throught.
>
> Playing an instrument is clearly not facilitated by a hypernoradrenergic state. The norepinehprine makes the hands shake and blocks the ability to access prior memories (the music you had memorized). OTOH, if your skill is to listen to a new melody and play it back, high norepinephrine might be beneficial (as it increases working memory).
>
> To lower norepinephrine (or the consequences or hypernoradrenergic states) one can take a beta blocker, or a PKC inhibitor. Both have been shown to ameleorate some of stress induced cognitive deficicts mentioned.
>
> As a rule of thumb, I like to always try the test on the same medications that I normally take when performing the task. Omega-3 is great at blocking PKC in the days or hours preceeding a stresful event. Sometimes though, taking too much of a beta blocker dulls the cognition. Be careful if you need to be on the ball for new information or instructions.
>
> Seeing as most math tests are a *combination* of recall and novel application. I like to go into a test as sober as possible. Go through the test and complete what you can while the noradrenaline is high. Then if you need to relax a little bit to reflect on the memory components, perhaps drink some beta blocker you have disolved in your water.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Franz on June 21, 2010, at 22:17:36
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus?, posted by linkadge on June 13, 2010, at 7:54:27
> I would avoid upper downer combinations till the last possible minute. When you give your brain a chance to let go and relax on its own, it will do a better job at consolidating what it has learned.
>
> Also, watch the propanolol for math. A certain amount of adrenaline will improve / facilitate spacial reasoning. If you use it for tests, I would disolve the drug in water, then drink it *as needed* during the test if anxiety gets too high.
>
> LinkadgePropranolol is fat soluble and takes time to make effect so I do not think this would work, have you tried it?.
Propranolol is a great medication, I have already taken 10 mg an finally I feel more calm and less depressed by thoughts, like a weight was taken from me. It does not always work the same though.
Thanks
Posted by Dan_MI on June 22, 2010, at 12:03:10
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine + Propranolol = Calculus? » linkadge, posted by Franz on June 21, 2010, at 22:17:36
I agree propranolol sometimes has less of an effect, but I think I'm still more calm than without it.
This is the end of the thread.
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