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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by Bob on June 2, 2010, at 11:43:00
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by hyperfocus on June 2, 2010, at 6:34:20
Some excellent insights/commentary are provided by bleauberry and and infocus regarding the nature of drug studies, and man's comprehension of mental illness among other things.
With respect to finding a PCP who has a deep and nuanced understanding of psych meds, that for me would present a monumental challenge. Most PCPs I've come across are only vaguely familiar with such things. I don't doubt that there are some out there with unusual insight, but I haven't found it.
Posted by manic666 on June 2, 2010, at 12:53:39
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by hyperfocus on June 2, 2010, at 6:34:20
3 different class,s of depression//no way you may have well say 100///the first you put that responds to ssri,s //i would say %90 of the population have at some time in there life// an go on to make full recoveries//now i must be a lot stronger than you as i have had every thing you mentioned in the 3 depression an am still on ssri,s//well mabye not bipolar ,but i have had the symtoms ,its just english p docs dont see there hand infront of them,, my ocd was curred by prozac an ssri////snris like effexor are the kiss of death for me //makeing my syptoms 10times worse//jesus i was near on bald in 5 weeks //an most rip you guts to pieces///as for maoi,s dont donate you major organ to science// you wont have any left for them anyway???????????.if your illness is life long benzo addiction like me is just about inevetable with major anxierty //so people will never fall into 3 depressive groups an med types//some come good on a good old fashion leaveing well alone//now lets get on to theropy//that is cool if you have one major prob to solve//you may come good if they make you understand //but people with major derpression have a weath of probs //you carnt solve them all one after the other// cos thats what happens//it happend to me my theropist said i can have a go at one //but your brain invents another to take its place//so its up to yourself to sort ///cbt theropy is so of base its laughable.they say every thing you fear is not real//it sure seems like it when you bolt for the nearest hideing place to loose your bowel movments// the therory is fight or flight //it should be flight or SHHHHHHHHHITE
Posted by manic666 on June 3, 2010, at 3:14:45
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by manic666 on June 2, 2010, at 12:53:39
well im suprised i wasnt hit with my post// are well another debate lost
Posted by MrTook on June 6, 2010, at 14:41:06
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by Huxley on June 1, 2010, at 0:52:40
> > I know there have been a lot of discussions about the the truthfulness about data regarding psychiatric medications.
> >
> > I know this is a rather simple point, but I don't know what to believe.
> >
> > There is just so much conflicting evidence out there and I am tired of being a guinny pig. I have to make important decissions and what good data is there out there?
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> Have you read 'anatomy of an epidemic' by Robert Whitiker?
>
> Must read for anyone on serious psych meds.
>I took a look at the article and I wasn't too impressed. Sure he has a scary premise, I was certainly thrown into an anxious tizzy at first, but a scary premise doesn't make something a fact.
My first problem with the article is that it equates hospitilization with social security disability without really going into detail as to why this is a valid comparison. I mean just think about it, might there possibly be some motivation for the 1950's patient to stay out of the hospital, and possibly some motivation for today's mentally ill to receive "free" money. Would it be possible that getting SSI has gotten a little easier as the world has gotten a better understanding and acceptance of mental illness?
Another problem, what is a patient care episode? It is impossible to understand why the rate might be increasing without understanding what is really being reported.
Let's say that his assumption on comparing hospitilzation and SSI is valid. He uses Table 2 to drive his point home by saying that from 1955 to 2003 the rate of disability increased by a factor of 6x, but is not interested at all in why it increased by a factor of 9x in roughly the same amount of time from 1850 to 1903? What might have caused the jump then, and is it possible that it continued to have an influence from 1955 till now? I can think of a couple.... maybe increasing population density? Maybe increased urbanization? Maybe changes in diet? Maybe increased exposure to pollution?
There is certainly an epidemic of mental health problems, and I would like nothing better for a cure and long term solutions. Might Whitaker be right? What is the cause? What is the problem? who knows? Whitaker certainly doesn't have anything more than guess.
Posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 0:25:56
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by MrTook on June 6, 2010, at 14:41:06
> > > I know there have been a lot of discussions about the the truthfulness about data regarding psychiatric medications.
> > >
> > > I know this is a rather simple point, but I don't know what to believe.
> > >
> > > There is just so much conflicting evidence out there and I am tired of being a guinny pig. I have to make important decissions and what good data is there out there?
> > >
> > > Linkadge
> >
> > Have you read 'anatomy of an epidemic' by Robert Whitiker?
> >
> > Must read for anyone on serious psych meds.
> >
>
> I took a look at the article and I wasn't too impressed. Sure he has a scary premise, I was certainly thrown into an anxious tizzy at first, but a scary premise doesn't make something a fact.
>
> My first problem with the article is that it equates hospitilization with social security disability without really going into detail as to why this is a valid comparison. I mean just think about it, might there possibly be some motivation for the 1950's patient to stay out of the hospital, and possibly some motivation for today's mentally ill to receive "free" money. Would it be possible that getting SSI has gotten a little easier as the world has gotten a better understanding and acceptance of mental illness?
>
> Another problem, what is a patient care episode? It is impossible to understand why the rate might be increasing without understanding what is really being reported.
>
> Let's say that his assumption on comparing hospitilzation and SSI is valid. He uses Table 2 to drive his point home by saying that from 1955 to 2003 the rate of disability increased by a factor of 6x, but is not interested at all in why it increased by a factor of 9x in roughly the same amount of time from 1850 to 1903? What might have caused the jump then, and is it possible that it continued to have an influence from 1955 till now? I can think of a couple.... maybe increasing population density? Maybe increased urbanization? Maybe changes in diet? Maybe increased exposure to pollution?
>
> There is certainly an epidemic of mental health problems, and I would like nothing better for a cure and long term solutions. Might Whitaker be right? What is the cause? What is the problem? who knows? Whitaker certainly doesn't have anything more than guess.Hi Mr Took.
I have to disagree with you. I think Whitaker has put forward a solid scientific case that these medications that we take are causing the very illnesses that they claim to cure.
There are many debatable points in the book,I asked myself the same questions you have just raised.. by the end of the book Whitaker has covered most of them.
Whitiker is a renowned scientific author and thinker and not the sort of person to use a 'scary premise' to sell books. All his conclusions are drawn on research and evidence.
I am not here to convince anyone of anything, but I do think that each and everyone of you should read anatomy of an epidemic. Arm yourself with the facts and make up your own mind.
Everything I believed in regarding psych meds was turned on it's head.
Posted by manic 666 on June 7, 2010, at 3:06:27
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 0:25:56
that still leaves a major floor//take you meds or take your life????????? what would you choose
Posted by SLS on June 7, 2010, at 5:42:23
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 0:25:56
I agree with Mr. Took. Whitaker seems to compare apples and oranges and presents them as being equivalent. For example, he equates the number of hospitalizations in 1955 to SSD cases in 2003 as indexes of illness rates. There is no science presented here to establish the validity of using such a comparison.
"Source: The disability rates for 1850 through 1955 are based on
the number of hospitalized mentally ill, as cited by E . Fuller
Torrey in The Invisible Plague (2001) . The disability rates for
1987 and 2003 are based on the number of mentally ill receiving
SSI or SSDI payments, as was reported in 2004 by the Social
Security Administration."Whitaker misuses statistics quite dramatically to promote his thesis. How does he account for the lack of an equally dramatic rise in suicides over this same time period? Actually, the rate of suicide in the US had been increasing prior to the introduction of antidepressants. This must be accounted for when looking for a cause and effect. Is this increase due to sociological factors or simply a difference in reporting practices? Perhaps both? And what of the decline in suicides seen since the introduction of Prozac in 1987?
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#death-rates
- Scott
Posted by manic 666 on June 7, 2010, at 8:49:20
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by MrTook on June 6, 2010, at 14:41:06
all i no is i reached a stage in my life //where i couldnt hide it any more//i was ill from drinking at times to cover myself//people thought i didnt arrange to meet them as i was my own man//i could not make arangments as i didnt no how i woluld feel on the he day// if i could cover the slurring of my words ,or control my shakeing or thought pattern//i had reached a crossroads ,an i could not carry on //i needed help an bad//i became a recluse ,could not work an suicide on my mind//i found help????????well pretty sh*tty actually but it was a start//tried loads of meds //what else is there ,this was not a new thing to me it was a life time sh*t//it was only going to get worse//then i had a break through with prozac//the world was a place i had never been in before beautiful an full of coulor//it lasted 2 years but it had sown the seed in my brain there/was help//i would have killed myself without that little spark of life//i have been in a lot worse conditions since ,even suicide attept//brought on through bad p doc pratice//but what stuck in my mind is that one time i saw the world different//i have never got to be that good again bbbbbbbut it never leaves my head//so i would have been dead ///end off without meds// the post is a little old talk really //people killed themself in the hundreds before meds//it was just put down to save face //heart attack or simular//the pressures are far greater today//no more jobs for life//millions more people//asylums were bursting with patients ,,drugs an new meds have closed most down//how would a schizophrenic hold down a job without meds/or a bipolor patient//i think without meds the world would have nuked itself 10 years ago
Posted by SLS on June 7, 2010, at 9:08:33
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by manic 666 on June 7, 2010, at 8:49:20
Your experience with remission is much the same as mine. The world seemed totally different to me during the nine months I was well in 1987. It was a completely different place to live in. I didn't feel different - the world felt different. I hold tightly to my memories of that time. It is all I have to convince me that it is worth the pain and suffering to continue working towards finding another effective treatment. I know that life can be worth living when free of depression.
- Scott
Posted by Mrtook on June 7, 2010, at 9:43:35
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 0:25:56
Well I haven't read the book and I am not sure I will as the pdf linked,to me was a scare piece masquerading as a scholarly article and such bait and switch tactics turn me off.
Huxely you are entitled to your opinion and you and Whitaker my very well be right. I have no doubt you and Whitaker believe it to be true, but to me it is just another hypothesis right up there with not taking medication leads to a worsening of conditions.
Posted by manic 666 on June 7, 2010, at 12:25:30
In reply to Re: Don't know what to believe, posted by Mrtook on June 7, 2010, at 9:43:35
buddy ,how cool is that//i hope my post gave you a boost// so much alike but are lives have been so different //stay safe my brother
Posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 18:04:50
In reply to scott, posted by manic 666 on June 7, 2010, at 12:25:30
Hi All,
This book profoundly changed the way I look at psychiatric medications and the industry.
If nothing else it is an intriguing look into it's history.
You walk your own path in life and I am not trying to tell you which direction to walk.
I have found that over the course of my treatment with psychiatric medications, I have lacked information.
I have relied upon doctors who seem to have less knowledge about the subject than me and ancedotal evidence and advice from people on the internet.
I think it is a very valuable information for anyone who is using psychiatric medicine.
Posted by manic 666 on June 8, 2010, at 4:22:45
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 18:04:50
this may be true for you///but for people who tried to go through life without meds like me//an found myself finally on the floor//nowhere else to go,only meds or death// then getting relief from them ,,something you never had///why would i want to read a book that would trigger an rubbish to only think i have left//have you got something i could look to after i crash an burn//people who are ill dont want to read book that rubbish the only thing the have//every thing in the book may be true //bbbbbbbut i dont want to no
Posted by mrtook on June 8, 2010, at 7:47:59
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 18:04:50
> Hi All,
>
> This book profoundly changed the way I look at psychiatric medications and the industry.
>
> If nothing else it is an intriguing look into it's history.
>
> You walk your own path in life and I am not trying to tell you which direction to walk.
>
> I have found that over the course of my treatment with psychiatric medications, I have lacked information.
>
> I have relied upon doctors who seem to have less knowledge about the subject than me and ancedotal evidence and advice from people on the internet.
>
> I think it is a very valuable information for anyone who is using psychiatric medicine.
>
>
Huxley, would you mind sharing your story? What have you suffered from? What meds have you taken? What works for you now,Regards, mr took
Posted by manic666 on June 8, 2010, at 12:47:19
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 7, 2010, at 18:04:50
yes huxley ,tell us your history
Posted by Huxley on June 9, 2010, at 5:33:55
In reply to Re: scott, posted by manic666 on June 8, 2010, at 12:47:19
I was put on Zoloft for Social anxiety when I was about 20 years old.
It helped alot at the time but of course it stopped working.I was shopped around all the SSRI's and SSNI's. Nothing really did much to help me.
I have always been mildly depressed or dysthymic. I have always had trouble relating to people
and 'fitting in'.I had a depressive episode when I was about 24 after the break up of a relationship.
I recovered from that and a couple of years ago I had another one, again at the end of a relationship.
I was a mess. I couldn't sleep and I was in a deep dark hole.My doctor put me first on Zyprexa and then seroquel as well. I stopped the Seroquel but stayed on the Zyprexa.
Things have progressivly gotten worse and so my doctor put me on lactimal and provigil.And that is where I am now. I am still dysthymic. I still have alot of anxiety, probably more than ever. And on top of
that I have the side effects that come with all these meds.I have never been the same as the day I was before I started taking zyprexa.
So thats why I ask the question. What are these medications doing for me? I still have all my original symptoms which
are probably worse anyway. I have trouble with the simpelest of tasks. My short term memory is gone, I can't remember a thing even if I try.
I forget words and muddle up sentances. I am pretty much emotionless, although I still seem to feel the bad ones.So i'm just as lost and messed up as most.
I want to see what life is like without meds and If I crash and burn in the process so be it.
I am encouraged my thousands of others who have done it and are living peaceful lives. And I am scarred of the thousands of others who have just lost
the plot attempting it. I am scared of the withdrawals. Maybe I will go through a year of hell and end back up here at square one but to me the risk of that is less than the risk of living the rest of my life like I am now.
Posted by SLS on June 9, 2010, at 7:26:57
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 9, 2010, at 5:33:55
> My doctor put me first on Zyprexa and then seroquel as well. I stopped the Seroquel but stayed on the Zyprexa.
> Things have progressivly gotten worse and so my doctor put me on lactimal and provigil.What a mess. No wonder you have lost faith in biological psychiatry. I don't understand why these drugs have been chosen to treat depression, dysthymia, or social anxiety.
I completely understand your desire to discontinue drug treatment. If you find it necessary to restart pharmacotherapy in the future, you might want to explore the use of MAO inhibitors.
- Scott
Posted by manic666 on June 9, 2010, at 8:58:37
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 9, 2010, at 5:33:55
huxley //thats what i mean //a bad d tox can an will kill you simple as//i am a strong man an i was bought to my knees with d dox//// slow d tox may be ok //but some talk of full stop detox//i carnt stress enough how bad that would be//mine was forced //but to do it voluntary on a high dose of meds//perpair to crash an even die//thats no b*llsh*t
Posted by MrTook on June 9, 2010, at 10:46:42
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 9, 2010, at 5:33:55
It certainly seems that you are not in a good place. I am not trying to change your mind on your course of action, but have you considered getting a 2nd opinion from another pdoc?
Posted by manic666 on June 9, 2010, at 12:21:29
In reply to Re: scott, posted by MrTook on June 9, 2010, at 10:46:42
a second oppinion is a good idea// but i think what huxley is really after is for posters to agree with him an his plan,s//but that anit going to happen my friend or there would be no forums like this //med,s all screw with your head its a fact //a lot, maybe yours are wrong for the patient an side effects worse than the illness//until you have been through all the different types of meds an give them a trial //you will never no,
Posted by Huxley on June 9, 2010, at 19:28:30
In reply to Re: scott, posted by manic666 on June 9, 2010, at 12:21:29
I am not in a good place. But I feel I am in a pretty rational and sane place.
I dont't know if it is just Australia but the doctors here seem to have no idea when it comes to psych meds.
I have been to two or three doctors who specialise in the area to get a different perspective.One of them gave me a lecture on the meaning of life and advised me that there is no such thing as med withdrawal (he acknowledged that
there was rare withdrawals from ssri's...) and to taper of my medication in 2 weeks and the other one tried to tell me I was bipolar and add depokate.
I have never had a maniac episode in any way shape or form. I am not bipolar, which seems to be the trendy mental illness of 2000s.As maniac mentioned before, stopping your meds that quickly is a shortcut to the mental ward in your hospital.
Realistically I see getting of meds as a one or two year taper process. But where can I get help for this?
Where can I find someone who will assist me rather than process me in 30 minutes, make me fill out a survey and put me into some category and
try and pump me full of more medications.I am not trying to get people to agree with me to justify what I am doing. And I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the right path to take.
I truly believe that I can personally live without medications and that in my case they are making things worse.
Posted by Phillipa on June 9, 2010, at 20:29:20
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 9, 2010, at 19:28:30
Same happened to my neighbor and she stopped meds one at a time. Is still teaching school doing well. She did take time off when getting off meds. She has kept xanax thats it. Phillipa
Posted by manic666 on June 10, 2010, at 4:50:00
In reply to Re: scott » Huxley, posted by Phillipa on June 9, 2010, at 20:29:20
dont worry your docs are no worse than england//i once rang an organisation//how to get off ativan //this woman said you must follow my plan to the letter an report in on time with your progress//i said cool,so off we went //i reported in /nobody there it must of been someones house//she rang back an said some lame excuss//anyway i wasnt doing to well on this an on the next report time// as i answered the phone she was sort off ,stand off matter of fact ish//i could hear her scrapping a tub of icecream or something as we spoke//the woman was eating an talking to me at the same time//i said do you mind not f***ing eating an talking to me at the same time//she said wwwwwwwwwwhat?????????i said i dont no if they pay you, but if they do its to much///funny think happened then the line went dead
Posted by SLS on June 10, 2010, at 8:27:05
In reply to Re: scott, posted by Huxley on June 9, 2010, at 19:28:30
> I truly believe that I can personally live without medications and that in my case they are making things worse.
It would be difficult to prove otherwise. I guess there is only one way to find out. I can understand your need to discover whether or not you can live a good life without psychiatric medicines. I hope you can.
- Scott
Posted by mrtook on June 10, 2010, at 9:05:48
In reply to Re: scott » Huxley, posted by SLS on June 10, 2010, at 8:27:05
Huxley I wish you the best of luck.
Keep us posted on how it goes.
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