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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Justherself54 on April 3, 2010, at 22:28:03
In reply to I think I just want control..., posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:16:56
I wish there was a right answer. I too would like some control over my mood.
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 23:25:53
In reply to Re: I think I just want control... » linkadge, posted by Justherself54 on April 3, 2010, at 22:28:03
> I wish there was a right answer. I too would like some control over my mood.
I have no doubt that the exposure to many antidepressants produces changes in brain structure and function that may be irreversible. One indication that this occurs is the observation that many drugs display the phenomenon of "poop-out". People often develop a refractoriness to the therapeutic effects of a drug once that drug is discontinued and later restarted. Something must be different.
I am not sure what better choices there are but to take a risk and try the psychiatric drugs that currently exist and hope that we respond to them in ways that are observed to reduce pain and suffering in a great many people.
Statistics have a habit of changing depending on who presents them. I have read that the rate of suicide in some countries has decreased since the advent of the SSRIs in 1987. It is suggested that the media attention paid to Prozac and the epidemiology of depression produced an increase in the number of people seeking treatment, and thus a decrease in the number of suicides. I guess the question worth asking is what the rate of suicide would be in the absence of antidepressant treatment. It had already been increasing prior to the inventions of phenelzine and imipramine. Thereafter, it remained static and later decreased.
I cherry-picked this one:
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#death-rates
- Scott
Posted by sukarno on April 3, 2010, at 23:54:59
In reply to Re: I think I just want control..., posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 23:25:53
I'm not sure if this would belong here or in alternative since it is more accepted these days as a standard form of treatment, but have any of you tried light therapy (using a light box)?
It has been proven in double-blind studies to help depression, not only seasonal affective disorder.
Sometimes severely depressed inpatients are forced to wake up after 5 hours of sleep and then are administered light therapy. The combination of sleep deprivation and light therapy brings about a rapid improvement in relief of depression.. much quicker than drugs or ECT.
Posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 0:16:09
In reply to Re: I think I just want control..., posted by sukarno on April 3, 2010, at 23:54:59
Hi.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will keep it in mind.
- Scott
> I'm not sure if this would belong here or in alternative since it is more accepted these days as a standard form of treatment, but have any of you tried light therapy (using a light box)?
>
> It has been proven in double-blind studies to help depression, not only seasonal affective disorder.
>
> Sometimes severely depressed inpatients are forced to wake up after 5 hours of sleep and then are administered light therapy. The combination of sleep deprivation and light therapy brings about a rapid improvement in relief of depression.. much quicker than drugs or ECT.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 4, 2010, at 11:40:22
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 3, 2010, at 18:13:50
> >So what happens you wait 6-12 months and if you >don't get better than ask for meds...Your brain >has now been battered by depression for a half a >year...I don't think that's a reasonable >statrategy..
>
> I do think its a reasonable strategy. The suicide rate has not dropped since the introduction of antidepressants. Sure, the good old fashoned way may be harder in the short term, but if most people recover without meds (which statistically they did), then you wouldn't have millions of people dependant on psychiatric drugs (which permanaently alter brain chemistry in their own right)
>
> LinkadgeA couple questions to clarify your post. There's a bit of confusion here.
1. Do you have a link to this study or the name of the study?
2. What criteria did they use for determining who would participate in this study?
3. I believe your study said most get better. Define most as I guess that could mean anywhere from 51% to 99%.
4. Was this I guess what is termed double blind study? If so what were the results on both sides.
Now just some of my own opinions. You said most get better and therefore some don't get better. This means someone has waited 6-12 months to get better and hasn't gotten better and now its a year later. So now the doctor will dispense meds?
I don't think you understood what I was getting at. Even if your study turns out to be correct I don't think most patients would put up with a doctor who practiced that way. I go to my doc and have been in the blackest depression for several months and I'm looking for some relief. My doc pats me on the back and tells me that this mental anquish will most likely subside after 6 to 12 months. Now he tells me that if I don't feel better after a year to come back again and we'll look at some meds to help me out. Now hang in there he smiles at me. Now after the nurses have pried my hands off Dr. X's throat I would start going to other doctors who would medicate me immediately.
Just an observation of human nature. Many will not wait a week for a cold to go away before asking for antibiotics which do not even work on a cold. (let alone wait 6-12 months )
Most doctors also will not practice this way if they wish to keep people coming to them for treatment.NOW!! if science can figure out which depressive types will resolve on their own and which will not than we have a statistic that is meaningful. That way those who will not resolve on their own can get started now on treatment.
Right now to many symptoms are lumped under depression and treated in a standard way which I believe creates many failures. I believe depression is a group of diseases that probably requires a group of different treatments and in some cases no meds but psycotherapy.Myth No 1. Antidepressants are addictive. They may be for some and I am not questioning that. But I have cold turkeyed my ads many times without a problem. I continue to try new med combos in pursuit of that elusive remission. I also have had friends and acquaintences stop their ads after they were no longer needed without any withdrawal issues.
Myth No 2. Suicide rate. I personally don't believe you can take one statistic and use that to determine wether meds are effective or not effective. You need a myriad of personality measurements before and after to see if the med is effective. There could be other factors in one's life that could lead to suicide. Chronic debiliting disease, chronic pain etc. It is a myth that depression is the only reason one would committ suicide.
So let's look at your comments.In my opinion they're really more opinion than hard science which is okay.
1. It may be a reasonable strategy for you but a 6-12 month waiting period would not be a reasonable for me or many others. I guess it's a matter of choice.
2. The statement about the suicide rate not dropping. That's a hard one to prove. As I stated above you can't take this one meaurement and judge antidepressants based on that. Depression is to complex to be judged on one thing and we can't be sure how accurate the measurements were from the 1950's. More than likely they were undercounted in the 1950s.
3. You mention the old fashioned way. You really could make that statement about modern medicine in general. Probably the majority of symptoms that we go to the doctor about would resolve on their own and in far shorter time than 6 to 12 months. If you think about it maybe we should withhold medical treatment on most illnesses and just wait and see if the sick person becomes well on their own. If the person dies, while that may be tragic there is an upside. Only the strongest survive and live to breed and we end up with a more robust society.
So you may have come up with a strategy that is better for society in general but we just have to expand it to include all illness and in the process weed out the physically and mentally unfit.
> I do think its a reasonable strategy. The suicide rate has not dropped since the introduction of antidepressants. Sure, the good old fashoned way may be harder in the short term, but if most people recover without meds (which statistically they did), then you wouldn't have millions of people dependant on psychiatric drugs (which permanaently alter brain chemistry in their own right)
Posted by sukarno on April 4, 2010, at 13:20:25
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover » linkadge, posted by bulldog2 on April 4, 2010, at 11:40:22
I guess the good thing I can report is that - in the days when I wasn't couped up at home and had a car and would drive everyday - getting exposure to plenty of natural sunlight and social activities pretty much eliminated any depressive symptoms I had. Even if I felt bad at night, a long drive (200 miles round-trip) with the sunroof open at night and nice music playing would also bring relief. I loved to be on the road. Staying in one place tends to trigger my depression.
The best relief I ever obtained without drugs was when I was delivering newspapers early in the morning as the sun was rising. It was about an hour of physical activity and that exercise along with the early morning sun markedly reduced my anxious and depressive symptoms. I felt like a new person and it only got better the longer I kept doing that. I had to give it up though when the weather became far too cold (sub-zero).
So, thinking of this, even though this was back in the 1990s when I had a car (which I don't now and haven't had one for 9 years), gives me hope that I don't really _need_ drugs to overcome my depression.
It is just that this situation is driving me nuts and I need pills to get through it. (living in a dark house.. weather too hot to venture outside... not knowing the local language enough to develop social bonds with people... no car... stuck inside all the time on my computer)
I hope that someday I can get out of this country or at least find a higher elevation where the weather is far cooler (unfortunately those areas are populated by the wealthy expatriates so I can't afford to live there).
I have my mind set on a country more affordable to travel to such as Australia or New Zealand. New Zealand would be preferable due to its relatively cool climate year round (especially in the southern part). I could then venture out, make friends since we all speak English and get better without drugs.This is the thought that keeps me going. I feel though that light therapy is the only thing that has kept me going. Stablon is far too weak on its own when living in a dark house and also being isolated from society. I'm sure Stablon would be efficacious if one was able to venture out and socialise with others.
Posted by Sigismund on April 4, 2010, at 15:36:49
In reply to situational depression may be my problem, posted by sukarno on April 4, 2010, at 13:20:25
>I have my mind set on a country more affordable to travel to such as Australia or New Zealand. New Zealand would be preferable due to its relatively cool climate year round (especially in the southern part). I could then venture out, make friends since we all speak English and get better without drugs.
Ha! Well. Maybe. But not if you're me. Although, as you say, New Zealand, maybe right down the bottom.
Why don't you learn Bahasa Indonesian (or whatever it's called) while you're there?
Just a few words of Vietnamese and I'd feel different.
Posted by sukarno on April 4, 2010, at 21:29:21
In reply to Re: situational depression may be my problem » sukarno, posted by Sigismund on April 4, 2010, at 15:36:49
I can get by in Malaysia and socialise as they will mix English with their native language, but Indonesians don't do that. I've found it so difficult to learn the language despite being here for 7 years. I can read it (if its formal), but when it comes to conversation, I just can't pick up on it. People talk to fast. When they see that you can speak even a few words of their language they will go "full blast" on you with all the slang and rapid speech. lol.. you won't understand any of it.
Even the ones that speak some English don't seem to understand me even if I speak slowly and clearly in English. hmm...
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 5, 2010, at 11:20:23
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 3, 2010, at 18:13:50
Link,
I think your computer is infected with a virus or some kind of malware. I keep getting spam emails from your email address, which are obviously not being sent by you, so I assume they are being generated by a computer program which has infected your computer. Perhaps you could run an antivirus program?
Ed
Posted by Phillipa on April 5, 2010, at 19:43:35
In reply to For Linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 5, 2010, at 11:20:23
Link same here. Phillipa from you
Posted by Katgirl on April 6, 2010, at 10:07:42
In reply to For Linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 5, 2010, at 11:20:23
Hi Linkadge-
I'm so sorry for your struggles. I know I often have some of the same thoughts. I DO think my brain has been damaged by withdrawal to Paxil and that I will never be the same after all the drug trials, BUT I still believe that the brain/body does have incredible healing powers. I was in a deep, dark suicidal can barely walk, can't feed myself or sleep depression for over two years. rTMS helped me to start crawling out of that and now several years later I am doing much much better. Am I back where I was before taking Paxil. No. But I am at least not in constant agony anymore. My life is still limited greatly by my disease (mainly by anxiety and fatigue at this point) but I am hoping some better medications that I can take will come out during my lifetime. (Currently I am unmedicated). For me I try to do everything I can to take care of myself: stay on a sleep schedule, exercise, eat well, try to get together socially with people if I have any energy left after work. I have been sick with a horrible virus for four weeks, and my ability to exercise etc has been hampered, so now I start to get scared about the depression returning if I can't get physically better enough to get back on my schedule!! Take care!
Posted by Meltingpot on April 6, 2010, at 15:21:35
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
Hi Linkadge,
From my own experience.
My depression/anxiety started at the age of 17 (although I thought I was physically ill at the time) After a year of going back and forth to the hospital convinced I was dying of some awful uknown disease I stopped bothering and sort of plodded on with my life. From the age of 17 to 24 I didn't have a boyfriend, hardly went out and had very little drive or passion for life, inspite of the fact I was considered very attractive and intelligent.
Then at the age of 24 my symptoms seemed to get worst. I was convinced I had a lung disease, I even went to see a lung specialist who just told me off for smoking and made me feel even worst.
Then after breaking down in my doctors office and crying he put me on prothiaden (a tryciclic). From that moment onwards I never looked back (until now) and my life suddenly seemed to start again. It felt miraculous really.
The prothiaden stopped working the same five years later and I stopped them but I never felt as bad as I had at the age of 24 so I don't think the prothiaden made things worst, if anything, it sort of fixed me.
9 years ago I stopped Seroxat and after three fairly normal years my depression and anxiety resurfaced and since then nothing has worked very well.There are many people who take antidepressants for a while and then come off them and go back to feeling "Normal" again. Antidepressants don't seem to have harmed them.
Like you, I'm now in a catch 22 situation where I can't seem to live with antidepressants and I can't live without them. I don't feel well on them and I feel absolutely horrible off them. However, unlike you, I don't think the medication has made things worst. I don't think it helps that much anymore but I don't think it has made things worst. In fact I can't see how they could of made things any worst.
I felt pretty bad between the age of 17 to 24 and during that time I never really got better just worst. In a way I was glad I did get worst because if I hadn't then I would never have been put on medication.
I wish you wouldn't blame the medication for making you worst because that (in a way) is like blaming yourself for taking them in the first place.
Denise
Posted by conundrum on April 6, 2010, at 16:18:07
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by Meltingpot on April 6, 2010, at 15:21:35
Thats true about blaming yourself. I wish I never took prozac. When I was 16 my mom and her psych thought I should take it. I wish I never had so I usually end up blaming my mom or myself for not just lying and hiding the pills somewhere.
Or never telling anyone that I felt bad.I feel stupid with a poor memory, and concentration, and blunted after taking that drug, never felt that way before. I used to play the guitar and was on my way to becoming a professional musician. Now I'm just sitting in a boring temp job, because I have no drive, and gain no reward from attempting more difficult tasks and have trouble concentrating.
None of this existed before taking prozac.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 6, 2010, at 17:51:53
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
> I am just being honest with myself. I don't think I will ever fully recover. I don't have the same brain I started with 10 years ago when I got myself onto this ride of psychiatric drugs.
>
> LinkadgeWell based on your posts it would seem your best strategy would be to stop the meds. The mind has a very strong homestatis going on. It will try to get back to where nature and genetics intended you to be. If you theory about meds ruining your life is correct than staying off meds would seem to be the best way to go. The longer off meds the closer you will get back to your original unmedicated state.
Posted by linkadge on April 6, 2010, at 18:30:42
In reply to For Linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 5, 2010, at 11:20:23
Yes, I am aware of that issue. I appolgize. It is not on my computer (from what I understand about reading up on this issue). The activity happens independantly of the computer. An issue with hotmail?? I dunno. All I can say is sorry. I've got the best anti-virus/spyware stuff installed.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on April 6, 2010, at 20:09:19
In reply to Re: For Linkadge, posted by linkadge on April 6, 2010, at 18:30:42
Thanks for letting me know Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 7, 2010, at 13:50:11
In reply to Re: For Linkadge, posted by linkadge on April 6, 2010, at 18:30:42
> Yes, I am aware of that issue. I appolgize. It is not on my computer (from what I understand about reading up on this issue). The activity happens independantly of the computer. An issue with hotmail?? I dunno. All I can say is sorry. I've got the best anti-virus/spyware stuff installed.
Hi Link,
Don't be sorry. It doesn't bother me at all. I just wanted to let you know in case you had a problem with spyware which might potentially damage your computer.
Posted by meltingpot on April 8, 2010, at 8:18:23
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover » Meltingpot, posted by conundrum on April 6, 2010, at 16:18:07
Conundrum/Linkadge
I only went back on Antidepressants because I felt so bad that I felt I just could not continue to go on like that. I was in a bad state before I started them again and although I'm in a very bad state when I stop them, I don't blame them for the way I am today, although I don't think theyve done me much good long term this time round but then what would have? Suicide?
Anwyay, if you both honestly believe you could have got better with just therapy why didn't you go down that route?
Denise
Posted by conundrum on April 8, 2010, at 8:41:52
In reply to So why did you take it in the first place, posted by meltingpot on April 8, 2010, at 8:18:23
I was 16 when I started prozac. I just took them because I was told to. I didn't know they would leave me in a permanent state of mental anemia after I started taking them.
I was given prozac back then because I was anxious and sad. Now I'm not sad or anxious, but I can't feel any emotion, with or without a drug. I'm flat. No joy, no love, no drive, no desire to improve my life, no enjoyment of music, nature, sex, etc. the walking dead almost. Never felt that way before taking or even while on prozac, just after stopping it. Its like it hijacked all my brain functions and then f*ck*ed them when I stopped it.
Suicide would be nice if I could be assured I would be reborn to do all the things I wanted to do before I was put on this drug. Of course I don't actually believe in reincarnation so thats not a very good option.
So basically I "only went back on Antidepressants because I felt so bad that I felt I just could not continue to go on like that."
My attitude towards drugs is best exemplified by the following questions.
Poison is the cure?
Fight fire with fire?
Could something that disrupts norepinephrine help balance the permanent disruption of serotonin prozac has caused in me?
Posted by sukarno on April 8, 2010, at 13:30:06
In reply to Re: So why did you take it in the first place » meltingpot, posted by conundrum on April 8, 2010, at 8:41:52
I suppose it is possible that SSRIs are causing some sort of semi-permanent or permanent changes in brain chemistry long after discontinuation.
I also wonder if it is possible the behaviour could be learned? For example, I was a very introverted person and quiet/reserved prior to taking benzodiazepines, but afterward I felt a constant state of disinhibition and feeling extroverted/pro-social.. much more open about my opinions, etc.
I feel that it caused a change even when I tapered to zero dose in 1993 or in 1997 when I failed to taper to zero dose but was on a very low dose (e.g. 3.75mg clorazepate BID).
I wonder if the feelings that SSRIs give you, since one takes them for the long term, could - in part - be learned? One might learn to be emotionally numb or better buffered against stress.. so used to feeling numb to pleasures that when the drug is withdrawn the feeling is learned that "music isn't all that important" or "I don't care much about photography anymore".
I wonder if it is a function of either one or both: learned whilst under the drug and/or a semi-permanent to permanent effect of the drug upon brain chemistry.
Posted by conundrum on April 8, 2010, at 13:36:00
In reply to So why did you take it in the first place, posted by meltingpot on April 8, 2010, at 8:18:23
I thought my previous post sounded kinda negative. Maybe I would have ended up staying depressed if I had not taken prozac when I was younger. Maybe it would have progressed to the state of anhedonia I am in today. Unfortunately there is no way to know what could have happened. I can only try to deal with what is going on now.
My experience with drugs was negative but not everyone's is obviously. I think part of my problem with prozac is that it worked so well for me. I was always in a good mood in it, very rarely got down only if something really bad happened like a break up or death otherwise I felt awesome. I gained a lot of weight on the drug and started getting weird pressure headaches and had trouble breathing. I think I was getting too much serotonin.
When I came off the drug I had a blood test and all my liver enzymes were elevated. I was later diagnosed with gilbert's syndrome in which bilirubing isn't broken down so fast. I've wondered if a problem with my liver caused unsafe levels of fluoxetine, and norfluoxetine to build up in me. My mom has taken prozac for 9 years and stopped it without these problems and my grandmom recently stopped nardil after taking it for about 30 years and seems totally normal and in good spirits despite being in the hospital. Some kinda fluke just happened with me.
I don't want to discourage people from their treatment, but becareful and ask yourself if you truly need it, also find out how your health is before you take drugs that could effect it.
Posted by conundrum on April 8, 2010, at 15:05:23
In reply to Re: So why did you take it in the first place, posted by sukarno on April 8, 2010, at 13:30:06
I still loved music on prozac. I stopped caring exactly 3 weeks after stopping the drug. Restarting it didn't help.
I stayed on the drug for 6 months after restarting and then after stopping and staying off I started to have cognitive problems, including not remembering words I was going to use in sentences, trouble memorizing things, learning songs, hearing different parts to music, distinguishing notes in chords, etc.
Posted by linkadge on April 8, 2010, at 15:07:01
In reply to So why did you take it in the first place, posted by meltingpot on April 8, 2010, at 8:18:23
>Anwyay, if you both honestly believe you could >have got better with just therapy why didn't you >go down that route?
Because all the data and propeganda about depression and the wonders of antidepressants made it seem like a good choice at the time.
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on April 9, 2010, at 0:19:15
In reply to Re: So why did you take it in the first place, posted by linkadge on April 8, 2010, at 15:07:01
>Because all the data and propeganda about depression and the wonders of antidepressants made it seem like a good choice at the time.
I needed to believe that our society had soul doctors and that psychiatrists came close.
Why did I need to believe that?
Posted by Katgirl on April 10, 2010, at 10:33:54
In reply to Re: So why did you take it in the first place, posted by Sigismund on April 9, 2010, at 0:19:15
Conundrum-
I feel for you. And I have often wondered, what if, when I had my first bout of clinical depression, they would have put me on prozac instead of the new wonder drug paxil?? While paxil was great for pulling me out of the depression, I couldn't get off of it (And since it was a brand new drug, for years they denied there was a withdrawal syndrome with it and in affect told me I was crazy. The withdrawal I eventually went through has definitely changed my brain chemistry. I don't react to any medications the way I used to.
I wish pdocs and drug companies were more interested in the different ways these drugs affect people. Why can some people take AD's for a year or so, reap the benefits and then stop them and continue on their way, while others of us seem to have our brains altered in a negative way from using them.
Please, never blame yourself for taking the drug in the first place. I was in my 20's when I took my first AD. I was in a very severe clinical depression and I trusted my doctors. And really, what would have happened if I hadn't taken it?? Maybe I wouldn't have made it through the depression.
I do know, for me, after the rTMS, I have slowly continued to improve. I am nowhere near normal, but I am better than I was.
Take care, Kat
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