![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by tea on January 14, 2010, at 17:50:46
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by Sigismund on January 14, 2010, at 16:43:15
> >It just seemed that ever post he answered had to veer off onto his path
>
> Yeah, you're right, but isn't this true of everyone?
sure is for me. I find it really really hard to stay on any track!(impossible methinks for me, sigh)
Note to self- break into little piecesBTW I like what I saw of blueberry's posts but I haven't read enough to comment I guess,and I am not going to plough through the posts to be able to give an "fully informed" viewpoint. He's definitely never triggered that 'sting' to me that some posters do, and never annoyed me either.
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2010, at 19:06:57
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by bulldog2 on January 14, 2010, at 15:57:33
Not quite true but can not divudge info here that is not my right. And please do not be uncivil about bb posts. I like him and myself not severly depressed. I find this forum has all sorts of conditions. Not just TRD. What about newbies and first meds? Also Many other topics. Bipolar is a very frequent topic here with mood stabalizers. Just my opinion. Phillipa
Posted by janejane on January 14, 2010, at 19:15:03
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by bulldog2 on January 14, 2010, at 17:22:41
I wouldn't want to feel like I couldn't share things I think might be helpful just because some other babblers might find it repetitive. I know that when I'm able to give a tidbit of info here and there it's often something that someone else here has already said but that the original poster wasn't aware of. I don't think there's anything wrong with that since not everyone is going to go digging through the archives and they may not be exposed to the info otherwise. What may be old news to you might be new to them, and possibly extremely helpful.
I guess part of my rationale is that if you happen not to care for someone's posts, it's easy enough to just skip over them. Same thing with threads that are rehashes of old topics.
But yes, let's drop this. None of this changes the fact that Bleauberry was a well-meaning guy and I feel bad that he might have felt driven away.
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2010, at 20:09:48
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back » bulldog2, posted by janejane on January 14, 2010, at 19:15:03
Great idea. Love Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on January 15, 2010, at 16:48:44
In reply to Blueaberry Please come back, posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 13:38:31
"Everyone must be their own advocate, because no one else is going to do it for you."
Posted by KaylaBear on January 15, 2010, at 21:28:27
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by Sigismund on January 14, 2010, at 14:30:38
It seems many of us are biased in some way or another. After all, many of us state our subjective experiences here to try and help one another.
I've been lingering with TRD, though I have not tried "every" drug. My soapbox routine is therapy. I was in therapy for years, but the wrong type. It did nothing for me. Having rentered therapy, I discovered the source of my anxiety and also gained insight into the source of my depression. So, of course I think that some with TRD may also benefit from it, and I will state this because we are all free to contribute our personal knowledge and experiences, and whoever reads about them can take what they want and leave behind what they do not want.
Although I would like to inform others about therapy, I still believe people should take medications. The problem is, taking medications does not always address the underlying cause. Maladaptive behavior, which some experts say changes our brain/cognition patterns (such as the author to the articles below) is not even considered by many.
There is plenty of research on attachment and I think some would benefit by learning about it, as I have. Especially those whose depression emerged either during or after a love relationship. The article below is not just about flashbacks of PTSD-its about patterns of relating. The result of insecure parental attachments can surface years after repression and more functional behavior. But it wears you down-it takes so much mental energy to maintain your psychological defenses. When we get older, we can lose our ability to maintain such defenses, and can experience TRD when the underlying issues are ignored for years.
In reading many of the posts here, largely the more descriptive ones, I sometimes feel the person who is suffering is experiencing this (antecdotally--this is especially true of those who never had depression prior to being in or after the end of a romantic relationship). It practically jumps out on the screen:
http://www.pete-walker.com/fAQsComplexPTSD.html
Psychogenesis of the PTSD Critic:
A flashback-inducing critic is typically spawned in a danger-laden childhood home. When parents do not provide safe enough bonding and attachment, the child flounders in abandonment fear and depression. Many children appear to be hard-wired to adapt to this endangering abandonment with perfectionism. This is true for both the passive abandonment of neglect and the active abandonment of abuse. A prevailing climate of danger forces the maturing superego to cultivate the various psychodynamics of perfectionism and endangerment listed at the end of this article. When anxious perfectionist efforting, however, fails over and over to render the parents safe and loving, the inner critic becomes increasingly hypervigilant and hostile in its striving to ferret out the shortcomings that seemingly alienate the parents. Like the soldier overlong in combat, PTSD sets in and locks the child into hypervigilance and excessive sympathetic nervous system arousal. Desperate to relieve the anxiety and depression of abandonment, the critic-driven child searches the present, and the future, for all the ways he is too much or not enough. The childs nascent ego finds no room to develop and her identity virtually becomes the superego. In the process, the critic often becomes virulent and eventually switches to the first person when goading the child: Im such a loser. Im so pathetic bad... uglyworthlessstupid...defective. One of my clients grief-fully remembered the constant refrains of his childhood: If only I wasnt so needy and selfishif only my freckles would fade...if only I could pitch a perfect game...if only I could stop gagging on the canned peas during dinner...if only I could pray all the time to get moms arthritis cured - then maybe shed stop picking on me, and then maybe dad would play catch with me.
Thoughts As Triggers In extremely rejecting families, the child eventually comes to believe that even her normal needs, preferences, feelings and boundaries are dangerous imperfections justifiable reasons for punishment and/or abandonment. In the worst case scenarios - where parents use childrens words as ammunition against them - the mere impulse to speak sometimes triggers intense feelings of panic. How could anything the child says not reveal his stupidity and worthlessness...not get him deeper into trouble and rejection? As ongoing neglect and abuse repetitively strengthen the critic, even the most innocuous, self-interested thought or musing can trigger a five alarm fire of intense emotional flashback. To maintain the illusive hope of someday winning parental approval, the childs anxious striving escalates, and may even become a perfectionism that is truly obsessive/compulsive.
Complex PTSD as an Attachment Disorder:
Polarization to a fight, flight, freeze or fawn response is not only the developing child's unconscious attempt to obviate danger, but also a strategy to purchase some illusion or modicum of attachment. All 4F types are commonly ambivalent about real intimacy because deep relating so easily triggers them into painful emotional flashbacks (see my article in The East Bay Therapist (Sept/Oct 05): "Flashback Management in the Treatment of Complex PTSD". Emotional Flashbacks are instant and sometimes prolonged regressions into the intense, overwhelming feeling states of childhood abuse and neglect: fear, shame, alienation, rage, grief and/or depression. Habituated 4F defenses offer protection against further re-abandonment hurts by precluding the type of vulnerable relating that is prone to re-invoke childhood feelings of being attacked, unseen, and unappreciated. Fight types avoid real intimacy by unconsciously alienating others with their angry and controlling demands for the unmet childhood need of unconditional love; flight types stay perpetually busy and industrious to avoid potentially triggering interactions; freeze types hide away in their rooms and reveries; and fawn types avoid emotional investment and potential disappointment by barely showing themselves - by hiding behind their helpful personas, over-listening, over-eliciting or overdoing for the other - by giving service but never risking real self-exposure and the possibility of deeper level rejection. Here then, are further descriptions of the 4F defenses with specific recommendations for treatment. All types additionally need and benefit greatly from the multidimensional treatment approach described in the article above, and in my East Bay Therapist article (Sept/Oct06): "Shrinking The Inner Critic in Complex PTSD", which describes thirteen toxic superegoic processes of perfectionism and endangerment that dominate the psyches of all 4F types in varying ways.
http://www.pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm
Posted by KaylaBear on January 15, 2010, at 22:03:46
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back » janejane, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2010, at 20:09:48
The DSM was created for the military years ago and is basically just a classification of symptoms. It does not help identify the underlying causes of depression, anxiety, or TRD. Most psychiatrists seem to be trained to treat symptoms. Hopefully understanding potential underlying causes of depression and anxiety can bring new awareness to some who are suffering from TRD.
I posted the wrong article-this is the article I meant to post:
What may I have been misdiagnosed with?
Renowned traumatologist, John Briere, is said to have quipped that if Complex PTSD were ever given its due that is, if the role of dysfunctional parenting in adult psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM [The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders used by all mental health professionals] would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet. It currently resembles a large dictionary. In my experience, many clients with Complex PTSD have been misdiagnosed with various anxiety and depressive disorders, as well as bipolar, narcissistic, codependent and borderline disorders. Further confusion arises in the case of ADHD [Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder], as well as obsessive/compulsive disorder, which is sometimes more accurately described as an excessive, fixated flight response to trauma. This is also true of ADD [Attention Deficit Disorder] and some dissociative disorders which are similarly excessive, fixated freeze responses to trauma. [See my article A Trauma Typology.]
This is not to say that those so diagnosed do not have issues that are similar and correlative with said disorders, but that these labels are incomplete and unnecessarily shaming descriptions of what the client is afflicted with. Calling complex PTSD panic disorder is like calling food allergies chronically itchy eyes; over-focusing treatment on the symptoms of panic in the former case and eye health in the latter does little to get at root causes. Feelings of panic or itchiness in the eyes can be masked with medication, but all the other associated problems that cause these symptoms will remain untreated. Moreover most of the diagnoses mentioned above imply deep innate characterological defects rather than the learned maladaptations to stress that children of trauma are forced to make adaptations, once again that were learned and can therefore usually be extinguished and replaced with more functional adaptations to stress.
In this vein, I believe that many substance and process addictions also begin as misguided, maladaptations to parental abuse and abandonment early adaptations that are attempts to soothe and distract from the mental and emotional pain of complex PTSD.
Posted by bleauberry on January 16, 2010, at 5:05:42
In reply to clarification, posted by KaylaBear on January 15, 2010, at 22:03:46
Well, the first article you posted hit the nail on the head for me. I've been through lots of psychotherapy and during that time the issue of abandonment was uncovered to be the big underlying issue of my life. It began in the first 2 years of my life...much abandonment in that timeframe. And it didn't really show its ugly head until the first longterm love relationship broke up. Even with all the therapy and understanding, this is still an issue today and is without question a big player. Heck, even the wrong meds can set it off bigtime. The right meds tame it down, but are so hard to find.
And then your second article takes it further. I like the analogy of the itchy eye. I guess that makes the point I try to make here all the time. Treat the symptoms of depression, yes, but don't stop there. Take a more comprehensive approach than merely a prescription pill. Focus on the obvious big players, such as mercury, lead, food or other sensitivities, thyroid, adrenal, fungal and bacterial pathologies. It's hard though, because the trials and failures of psych meds in our effort to resolve symptoms usually takes away most of our drive to gather the wisdom and plans we need. We get stuck in psychmed toolbox.
All much easier said than done. And little research or facts involved, so each is on his/her own to be their own advocate. The choice of doctors, tests, protocols, meds, and supplements, are all ultimately the job of the patient.
But we are fortunate to live in a country and a time of history where we have these choices.
Posted by Jeroen on January 16, 2010, at 5:15:32
In reply to Re: clarification » KaylaBear, posted by bleauberry on January 16, 2010, at 5:05:42
hey you're back
i'm starting Glycine therapy next week
i've read it calms down people with manic depression
Posted by KaylaBear on January 16, 2010, at 15:30:59
In reply to Re: clarification » KaylaBear, posted by bleauberry on January 16, 2010, at 5:05:42
Nice to see you posting, Bleauberry. That author explains the concept of self abandonment as well, which I can really relate to. I've read the earlier the trauma, the more difficult our prognosis. C-PTSD can also result from repeated neglect, an emotionally distant parent (who may have not been technically abusive), and repeated verbal abuse.
One of his concepts really stands out to me - that the mental effects do not ever disappear entirely for those who have this condition, insecure attachment (or whatever you want to call it). I think that's very relevant-and where psychotherapy is a necessity with medications.
Thanks for pointing out the analogy of the eye allergy. It is my hope that some who have had long term mental health problems recognize the source so that they may better manage their condition.
Do medications or are there any that interact with oxytocin? I came across this article about possible biochemical reactions from harm induced by relationships. Maybe I'll start a new thread about it when I'm up to it.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/05/23/biochemical-effects-of-betrayal/2347.html
"In the study, scientists were able to prove the hormone oxytocin plays a vital role toward the sentiment of trust, even after a betrayal.
The ability of human beings to live in societies is based on trust. Whether in love or politics, in family or business life, trust always plays an important role. The interest was correspondingly high when researchers at the University of Zurich discovered three years ago that oxytocin promotes a feeling of trust.
However, the neurophysiological basis of that effect and why oxytocin increases trust remained unknown.
Another unanswered question was whether oxytocin can influence the behaviour of trust, even after one persons faith in another has been betrayed.
A research team at the University of Zurich with the neuroscientist Thomas Baumgartner, the neuroeconomist Ernst Fehr and the psychologist Markus Heinrichs has now determined that oxytocin exerts an influence on how human beings deal with a breach of trust.
Test subjects who received a placebo reacted to a betrayal of trust by a reduction in their level of trust. On the other hand, people who received oxytocin by means of a nasal spray did not change their trusting behaviour.
This differing reaction to a breach of trust is associated with a very specific activation pattern in the brain. Test subjects who received oxytocin demonstrated a lower activation in the amygdala, in regions of the midbrain and in the dorsal nucleus of the caudatus.
This pattern indicates that oxytocin reduces the activation in those structures of the brain which are involved not only in dealing with fear but also in the adaptation of behaviour following a negative experience such as a betrayal of trust."
Posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 2:50:16
In reply to Re: O K (nm), posted by bleauberry on January 15, 2010, at 16:48:44
Bleauberry, I missed this entire thread. I didn't know you had thought of leaving--I'm so glad you're here.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 2:58:01
In reply to clarification, posted by KaylaBear on January 15, 2010, at 22:03:46
KaylaBear,
You're having a rough time? I'm sorry--I hadn't come across any posts of yours for awhile. (Though seems like I didn't see others; for example this entire thread!) I'm glad you're here, too. I thought you might have left.
fb
Posted by SLS on January 17, 2010, at 6:27:21
In reply to Re: clarification » KaylaBear, posted by bleauberry on January 16, 2010, at 5:05:42
> Focus on the obvious big players
Don't forget psychosocial stress and the long term changes it can produce in a vulnerable brain searching for homeostasis. This might be the biggest player of all.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 12:05:57
In reply to Re: clarification, posted by SLS on January 17, 2010, at 6:27:21
> > Focus on the obvious big players
>
> Don't forget psychosocial stress and the long term changes it can produce in a vulnerable brain searching for homeostasis. This might be the biggest player of all.
>
>
> - ScottYes.
Posted by KaylaBear on January 17, 2010, at 15:20:58
In reply to Re: clarification » KaylaBear, posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 2:58:01
Posted by bulldog2 on January 17, 2010, at 15:39:39
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by KaylaBear on January 15, 2010, at 21:28:27
> It seems many of us are biased in some way or another. After all, many of us state our subjective experiences here to try and help one another.
>
> I've been lingering with TRD, though I have not tried "every" drug. My soapbox routine is therapy. I was in therapy for years, but the wrong type. It did nothing for me. Having rentered therapy, I discovered the source of my anxiety and also gained insight into the source of my depression. So, of course I think that some with TRD may also benefit from it, and I will state this because we are all free to contribute our personal knowledge and experiences, and whoever reads about them can take what they want and leave behind what they do not want.
>
> Although I would like to inform others about therapy, I still believe people should take medications. The problem is, taking medications does not always address the underlying cause. Maladaptive behavior, which some experts say changes our brain/cognition patterns (such as the author to the articles below) is not even considered by many.
>
> There is plenty of research on attachment and I think some would benefit by learning about it, as I have. Especially those whose depression emerged either during or after a love relationship. The article below is not just about flashbacks of PTSD-its about patterns of relating. The result of insecure parental attachments can surface years after repression and more functional behavior. But it wears you down-it takes so much mental energy to maintain your psychological defenses. When we get older, we can lose our ability to maintain such defenses, and can experience TRD when the underlying issues are ignored for years.
>
> In reading many of the posts here, largely the more descriptive ones, I sometimes feel the person who is suffering is experiencing this (antecdotally--this is especially true of those who never had depression prior to being in or after the end of a romantic relationship). It practically jumps out on the screen:
>
> http://www.pete-walker.com/fAQsComplexPTSD.html
>
> Psychogenesis of the PTSD Critic:
>
> A flashback-inducing critic is typically spawned in a danger-laden childhood home. When parents do not provide safe enough bonding and attachment, the child flounders in abandonment fear and depression. Many children appear to be hard-wired to adapt to this endangering abandonment with perfectionism. This is true for both the passive abandonment of neglect and the active abandonment of abuse. A prevailing climate of danger forces the maturing superego to cultivate the various psychodynamics of perfectionism and endangerment listed at the end of this article. When anxious perfectionist efforting, however, fails over and over to render the parents safe and loving, the inner critic becomes increasingly hypervigilant and hostile in its striving to ferret out the shortcomings that seemingly alienate the parents. Like the soldier overlong in combat, PTSD sets in and locks the child into hypervigilance and excessive sympathetic nervous system arousal. Desperate to relieve the anxiety and depression of abandonment, the critic-driven child searches the present, and the future, for all the ways he is too much or not enough. The childs nascent ego finds no room to develop and her identity virtually becomes the superego. In the process, the critic often becomes virulent and eventually switches to the first person when goading the child: Im such a loser. Im so pathetic bad... uglyworthlessstupid...defective. One of my clients grief-fully remembered the constant refrains of his childhood: If only I wasnt so needy and selfishif only my freckles would fade...if only I could pitch a perfect game...if only I could stop gagging on the canned peas during dinner...if only I could pray all the time to get moms arthritis cured - then maybe shed stop picking on me, and then maybe dad would play catch with me.
>
> Thoughts As Triggers In extremely rejecting families, the child eventually comes to believe that even her normal needs, preferences, feelings and boundaries are dangerous imperfections justifiable reasons for punishment and/or abandonment. In the worst case scenarios - where parents use childrens words as ammunition against them - the mere impulse to speak sometimes triggers intense feelings of panic. How could anything the child says not reveal his stupidity and worthlessness...not get him deeper into trouble and rejection? As ongoing neglect and abuse repetitively strengthen the critic, even the most innocuous, self-interested thought or musing can trigger a five alarm fire of intense emotional flashback. To maintain the illusive hope of someday winning parental approval, the childs anxious striving escalates, and may even become a perfectionism that is truly obsessive/compulsive.
>
> Complex PTSD as an Attachment Disorder:
>
> Polarization to a fight, flight, freeze or fawn response is not only the developing child's unconscious attempt to obviate danger, but also a strategy to purchase some illusion or modicum of attachment. All 4F types are commonly ambivalent about real intimacy because deep relating so easily triggers them into painful emotional flashbacks (see my article in The East Bay Therapist (Sept/Oct 05): "Flashback Management in the Treatment of Complex PTSD". Emotional Flashbacks are instant and sometimes prolonged regressions into the intense, overwhelming feeling states of childhood abuse and neglect: fear, shame, alienation, rage, grief and/or depression. Habituated 4F defenses offer protection against further re-abandonment hurts by precluding the type of vulnerable relating that is prone to re-invoke childhood feelings of being attacked, unseen, and unappreciated. Fight types avoid real intimacy by unconsciously alienating others with their angry and controlling demands for the unmet childhood need of unconditional love; flight types stay perpetually busy and industrious to avoid potentially triggering interactions; freeze types hide away in their rooms and reveries; and fawn types avoid emotional investment and potential disappointment by barely showing themselves - by hiding behind their helpful personas, over-listening, over-eliciting or overdoing for the other - by giving service but never risking real self-exposure and the possibility of deeper level rejection. Here then, are further descriptions of the 4F defenses with specific recommendations for treatment. All types additionally need and benefit greatly from the multidimensional treatment approach described in the article above, and in my East Bay Therapist article (Sept/Oct06): "Shrinking The Inner Critic in Complex PTSD", which describes thirteen toxic superegoic processes of perfectionism and endangerment that dominate the psyches of all 4F types in varying ways.
>
> http://www.pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm
>
> http://www.pete-walker.com/managingAbandonDepression.htm
>Great reading Kayla! I will have to read over and over to understand fully. I think when the depression first occurred is of utmost importance in the eventual outcome. Children who were battered emotionally and suffered a form of ptsd along with depression have a harder struggle ahead. The brain emotional behavior has been hardwired for so long that the circuitry is permanent and probably is as permanent as genetic traits. While new thought processes can be worked on the question is wether they can become hardwired enough to compete with the older more emotionally laden thoughts and emotions? I doubt that can be accomplished without the aid of medications.I feel that people who have suffered early childhood trauma and depression at the hand of emotionally of physically abusive parents aknowledge that as the source of their current depression. medication and talk therapy will work best in these cases.
I think people who had fairly normal childhoods within a supportive family structure may have an easier road to travel as they may have a functional base of emotional thoughts and processes. While certain events may be triggering depression now they at least have a functional emotional base of thoughts somewhere in their minds to tap into. Maybe just talk therapy will work for them or temporary round of meds.
Unforunately the childhood depressive has nothing functional to tap into. He or she has to try and rewire a dysfunctional base. Not an easy task as I can attest to. Sometimes you get the ahha moment in therapy but that does not undo the wiring of the past. It is in place and continues to play on. You can only lay down new circuitry and hope eventually that becomes the dominant though therapy. The meds are only there to aid and facilitate that process.
Posted by bulldog2 on January 17, 2010, at 15:59:42
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by KaylaBear on January 15, 2010, at 21:28:27
> It seems many of us are biased in some way or another. After all, many of us state our subjective experiences here to try and help one another.
>
> I've been lingering with TRD, though I have not tried "every" drug. My soapbox routine is therapy. I was in therapy for years, but the wrong type. It did nothing for me. Having rentered therapy, I discovered the source of my anxiety and also gained insight into the source of my depression. So, of course I think that some with TRD may also benefit from it, and I will state this because we are all free to contribute our personal knowledge and experiences, and whoever reads about them can take what they want and leave behind what they do not want.
>
> Although I would like to inform others about therapy, I still believe people should take medications. The problem is, taking medications does not always address the underlying cause. Maladaptive behavior, which some experts say changes our brain/cognition patterns (such as the author to the articles below) is not even considered by many.
>
> There is plenty of research on attachment and I think some would benefit by learning about it, as I have. Especially those whose depression emerged either during or after a love relationship. The article below is not just about flashbacks of PTSD-its about patterns of relating. The result of insecure parental attachments can surface years after repression and more functional behavior. But it wears you down-it takes so much mental energy to maintain your psychological defenses. When we get older, we can lose our ability to maintain such defenses, and can experience TRD when the underlying issues are ignored for years.
>
> In reading many of the posts here, largely the more descriptive ones, I sometimes feel the person who is suffering is experiencing this (antecdotally--this is especially true of those who never had depression prior to being in or after the end of a romantic relationship). It practically jumps out on the screen:
>
> http://www.pete-walker.com/fAQsComplexPTSD.html
>
> Psychogenesis of the PTSD Critic:
>
> A flashback-inducing critic is typically spawned in a danger-laden childhood home. When parents do not provide safe enough bonding and attachment, the child flounders in abandonment fear and depression. Many children appear to be hard-wired to adapt to this endangering abandonment with perfectionism. This is true for both the passive abandonment of neglect and the active abandonment of abuse. A prevailing climate of danger forces the maturing superego to cultivate the various psychodynamics of perfectionism and endangerment listed at the end of this article. When anxious perfectionist efforting, however, fails over and over to render the parents safe and loving, the inner critic becomes increasingly hypervigilant and hostile in its striving to ferret out the shortcomings that seemingly alienate the parents. Like the soldier overlong in combat, PTSD sets in and locks the child into hypervigilance and excessive sympathetic nervous system arousal. Desperate to relieve the anxiety and depression of abandonment, the critic-driven child searches the present, and the future, for all the ways he is too much or not enough. The childs nascent ego finds no room to develop and her identity virtually becomes the superego. In the process, the critic often becomes virulent and eventually switches to the first person when goading the child: Im such a loser. Im so pathetic bad... uglyworthlessstupid...defective. One of my clients grief-fully remembered the constant refrains of his childhood: If only I wasnt so needy and selfishif only my freckles would fade...if only I could pitch a perfect game...if only I could stop gagging on the canned peas during dinner...if only I could pray all the time to get moms arthritis cured - then maybe shed stop picking on me, and then maybe dad would play catch with me.
>
> Thoughts As Triggers In extremely rejecting families, the child eventually comes to believe that even her normal needs, preferences, feelings and boundaries are dangerous imperfections justifiable reasons for punishment and/or abandonment. In the worst case scenarios - where parents use childrens words as ammunition against them - the mere impulse to speak sometimes triggers intense feelings of panic. How could anything the child says not reveal his stupidity and worthlessness...not get him deeper into trouble and rejection? As ongoing neglect and abuse repetitively strengthen the critic, even the most innocuous, self-interested thought or musing can trigger a five alarm fire of intense emotional flashback. To maintain the illusive hope of someday winning parental approval, the childs anxious striving escalates, and may even become a perfectionism that is truly obsessive/compulsive.
>
> Complex PTSD as an Attachment Disorder:
>
> Polarization to a fight, flight, freeze or fawn response is not only the developing child's unconscious attempt to obviate danger, but also a strategy to purchase some illusion or modicum of attachment. All 4F types are commonly ambivalent about real intimacy because deep relating so easily triggers them into painful emotional flashbacks (see my article in The East Bay Therapist (Sept/Oct 05): "Flashback Management in the Treatment of Complex PTSD". Emotional Flashbacks are instant and sometimes prolonged regressions into the intense, overwhelming feeling states of childhood abuse and neglect: fear, shame, alienation, rage, grief and/or depression. Habituated 4F defenses offer protection against further re-abandonment hurts by precluding the type of vulnerable relating that is prone to re-invoke childhood feelings of being attacked, unseen, and unappreciated. Fight types avoid real intimacy by unconsciously alienating others with their angry and controlling demands for the unmet childhood need of unconditional love; flight types stay perpetually busy and industrious to avoid potentially triggering interactions; freeze types hide away in their rooms and reveries; and fawn types avoid emotional investment and potential disappointment by barely showing themselves - by hiding behind their helpful personas, over-listening, over-eliciting or overdoing for the other - by giving service but never risking real self-exposure and the possibility of deeper level rejection. Here then, are further descriptions of the 4F defenses with specific recommendations for treatment. All types additionally need and benefit greatly from the multidimensional treatment approach described in the article above, and in my East Bay Therapist article (Sept/Oct06): "Shrinking The Inner Critic in Complex PTSD", which describes thirteen toxic superegoic processes of perfectionism and endangerment that dominate the psyches of all 4F types in varying ways.
>
> http://www.pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm
>
> http://www.pete-walker.com/managingAbandonDepression.htm
>I understand that talk therapy is very important for the child who experienced childhood induced ptsd complex. Are certain medications more helpful for those who still suffer depression and anxeity from this early childhood disorder?
Posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 16:12:43
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back » KaylaBear, posted by bulldog2 on January 17, 2010, at 15:59:42
Bulldog, I've been looking into this and haven't come up with anything yet.
Just ordered a book on health care issues for adult survivors of childhood abuse. I forget the title. I'll let anyone interested know how it is.
fb
Posted by bulldog2 on January 17, 2010, at 16:35:30
In reply to med support for c-ptsd? » bulldog2, posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 16:12:43
> Bulldog, I've been looking into this and haven't come up with anything yet.
>
> Just ordered a book on health care issues for adult survivors of childhood abuse. I forget the title. I'll let anyone interested know how it is.
>
> fbThank you.
Posted by KaylaBear on January 17, 2010, at 19:49:28
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by bulldog2 on January 17, 2010, at 15:39:39
Well said, Bulldog.
This article mirrors what you just said, but explains everything in great detail:
http://www.psybc.com/pdfs/library/Dysregulation_of_right_Brain_Schore_Trauma.pdf
Posted by KaylaBear on January 17, 2010, at 20:13:34
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back » KaylaBear, posted by bulldog2 on January 17, 2010, at 15:59:42
Bulldog, I am giving up on the medication merry go round. You can google C-PTSD or PTSD and medication key words on google scholar, and studies will show up as they do differentiate some medications for ptsd from what I recall.
This sort of sums up what I'm working on:
http://www.objectrelations.org/stages.htm
This takes a long time. Its much cheaper to just medicate people. But I suppose some people would prefer medications only. Its really unfortunate that many do not have the choice. Psychotherapy is very expensive, especially if you go weekly, which is often necessary.
Posted by bulldog2 on January 18, 2010, at 9:03:58
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back » bulldog2, posted by KaylaBear on January 17, 2010, at 20:13:34
> Bulldog, I am giving up on the medication merry go round. You can google C-PTSD or PTSD and medication key words on google scholar, and studies will show up as they do differentiate some medications for ptsd from what I recall.
>
> This sort of sums up what I'm working on:
>
> http://www.objectrelations.org/stages.htm
>
> This takes a long time. Its much cheaper to just medicate people. But I suppose some people would prefer medications only. Its really unfortunate that many do not have the choice. Psychotherapy is very expensive, especially if you go weekly, which is often necessary.
>I had a lot of standard talk therapy as a young man and had a lot of ahha moments. No particular style of psychotherapy other than talk and discuss. Really it did give me an understanding but no real changes in my behavior. Just more knowledgable about what was going on and suggestions about realizing old thought patterns were toxic and time to birng in new ones. As I said eventually no real changes occurred.
Tried CBT and found that fluff.
Now this doc you have links to has more of an action plan than others who put their feet up on the desk as they droned on. Really can't afford this any more. Once a week at $180..Just can't do it. The ones covered by my insurance really suck. One p-doc wanted take my case as He said I was to complicated.
But I Understand what you are saying about the med merry go round.
I will read the links and see what they say. Kayla you have to understand that children who were really battered emotionally will have a hard time doing it on talk therapy. The brain has been so altered it will be very difficult to override the old thought patterns.My current p-doc has an interesting theory. Just accept who you are with your limitations. Sometimes accepting your limitations gets that superego to relax and give you a better quality of life. Is that what the doc in the links is saying?
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2010, at 19:04:37
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back » bulldog2, posted by KaylaBear on January 17, 2010, at 20:13:34
Melanie Klein was big in object relations. Phillipa
Posted by KaylaBear on January 18, 2010, at 21:11:34
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by bulldog2 on January 18, 2010, at 9:03:58
Yes, I agree w/your doc-self-acceptance is a big part of it!! But you can't go there until you understand and process the emotions, imo.
I've done talk therapy for years, but it wasn't until I started feeling when I realize wtf I am the way I am. Recognizing and relating to transference is what differentiates my experience now from CBT (I agree too-fluff) and or just talking.
It helps to understand what its all about when you go there. Here's the overview:
http://www.objectrelations.org/index.html
You have to let yourself be vulnerable, and that takes lots of trust. Experienced therapists make a difference, I believe, in addition to a good match. And the older pdocs who do therapy often want to only take on the simpler cases, those who have mild problems, from what I've read and heard. They are difficult to find, especially with insurance situations. I am very sorry to hear about yours. I've been there too. I am lucky to have found a great T.
Anyway, if you talk and talk to a T, without feeling, nothing changes. Don't know if that's your situation, but it sure explains mine.
Posted by bulldog2 on January 19, 2010, at 9:17:14
In reply to Re: Blueaberry Please come back, posted by KaylaBear on January 18, 2010, at 21:11:34
> Yes, I agree w/your doc-self-acceptance is a big part of it!! But you can't go there until you understand and process the emotions, imo.
>
> I've done talk therapy for years, but it wasn't until I started feeling when I realize wtf I am the way I am. Recognizing and relating to transference is what differentiates my experience now from CBT (I agree too-fluff) and or just talking.
>
> It helps to understand what its all about when you go there. Here's the overview:
>
> http://www.objectrelations.org/index.html
>
> You have to let yourself be vulnerable, and that takes lots of trust. Experienced therapists make a difference, I believe, in addition to a good match. And the older pdocs who do therapy often want to only take on the simpler cases, those who have mild problems, from what I've read and heard. They are difficult to find, especially with insurance situations. I am very sorry to hear about yours. I've been there too. I am lucky to have found a great T.
>
> Anyway, if you talk and talk to a T, without feeling, nothing changes. Don't know if that's your situation, but it sure explains mine.
>Yes when I was looking for a p-doc covered by insurance the covered docs who heard my case turned me away.
Seems like most use a modified form of cbt these days. I go in and talk about how i felt since my last visit. We explore negative emotions and the pattern of faulty thinking that may be causing that emotion. We than talk about replacing that faulty thinking process with a new thought process that will not evoke anxiety and depression. So basically you are taught to look at certain situations that evoke negative thoughts and emotions in a new light.While this may be somewhat helpful it just doesn't seem to get the poison out of the system. In some ways its more of an academic exercise. These are the thoughts processes causing you pain. Now begin practicing these new thought processes. But something in my mind just keeps taking me back to the old negative crap. The old tapes just demand to be heard. Than you feel guilty and lazy that the therapy is really not working.
have to read pete walkers link and all the different sections.
This is the end of the thread.
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