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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by floatingbridge on December 28, 2009, at 15:33:57
Hi, me again. Sorry for the bandwidth.
Can isocort help 'heal' adrenals? (Or is it cortisol?)
I was looking at my spit test from last summer, and I don't know what planet I was on when I thought the results were normal, but on re-examination, they are quite, quite low--scraping the bottom of normal.
I didn't care for the holistic doc that ordered the test (she knew squat about thyroid) so I never went back.
If you have any spare change, your two cents would be greatly appeciated.
fb
please, helpful, educational answers only--I really can't handle someone telling me how stupid I am for not being able to put the pieces of my thyroid thing w/ my adrenal thing :-) The relationship may be obvious to some, but not to me.
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 16:40:57
In reply to isocort or adenal support for healing adrenals, posted by floatingbridge on December 28, 2009, at 15:33:57
Fb don't feel bad it's hard to see things sometimes when related to yourself. So what were the norms and results? Love Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on December 28, 2009, at 17:03:08
In reply to isocort or adenal support for healing adrenals, posted by floatingbridge on December 28, 2009, at 15:33:57
Low cortisol, adrenal fatigue, hypoadrenalism, whatever one calls it, is very common in amalgam illness and infectious diseases. At other forums where people discuss their problems, low cortisol is almost always one of the top items on their list of things to deal with. Very common. I suspect, without proof, that it is very common at this forum as well. Anything that puts undo stress on the adrenals...lifestyle, food choices, stress, diseases, medications...pose a threat. Most everyone will suffer it at some point in their life...college late nights with a part time job etc...but bounce back quickly due to good health.
Isocort is mostly viewed as superior to other adrenal cortex extracts at other forums. It is the top recommended one to choose. Some claim it has a small amount of hydrocortisone in, some claim not. If it does, it is miniscule. It is also common however that it alone is not enough, that somewhere along the line after a fair trial, the real stuff...hydrocortisone, cortef...is needed. Typical treatment periods are about a year, with doses ranging from 1.25mg to 20mg. These are physiological replacement doses only, to bring levels into the normal range, not the typical high dangerous doses that can have serious risks when used to treat other diseases. Just want to replace what is missing and no more.
My entire curve was below the normal band, just barely coming up to touch the bottom of the normal band in early evening. My doc started me on licorice, which prevents the breakdown of what cortisol you have. It didn't work and made me feel heavily depressed. Isocort was next. Same thing happened. Various trials of DHEA or pregnenalone, same thing happened. They just felt really bad to me. Other people however usually find these things somewhat helpful or very helpful.
Then the doc prescribed hydrocortisone 5mg tabs with a target of 20mg per day. I started with crumbs, worked my way up to 1.25mg and finally 2.5mg. I could feel it, it felt positive, more than 2.5mg felt worse, so I listened to my body and took what felt good. Thankfully that was far below the target range. It was two weeks into this that I had one miraculous day of absolute total remission. Like 20 years earlier before anything went wrong. Amazing. But then this doc got real busy, as another popular doc had left town, my prescription ran out, one thing after another, long story, and that was the end of that.
Other than trying supplements in an organized stragegic schedule, and perhaps finally HC maybe, the single best thing to heal adrenals is in food choices. Low or no caffeine, low or no sugars, lots of fresh veggies and fruits, lots of lean proteins, modest on starches and grains. A regular sleep schedule is important. And avoiding "overdoing it" at anything is important. Know your limits, and stop before you get that far.
I suspect many psych meds worsen or cause adrenal fatigue. No proof. My reasoning is this. Most meds either artificially increase serotonin to very high levels, or stimulate norepinephrine release. The norepinephrine release could burn out adrenals...such as remeron or antipsychotics or adderall. With SSRIs, the adrenals try as hard as they can to step up noradrenaline to match the new higher amount of serotonin...and when that happens maybe that is when the person feels better? If it doesn't happen, the drug doesn't work? Maybe. Just a thought I've always had. Possible. Anyway, let's assume the adrenals do match the SSRI, patient feels good, but over months or years the adrenals just cannot keep going a hundred miles an hour any longer. Poopout. And adrenal fatigue.
On the otherhand, it is my feeling that any med combo that has an equal or heavier focus on norepinephrine reuptake...not release...reuptake...is good. That takes stress off the adrenals. The adrenal networks are supported and exteneded, with less demand on the glands. Maybe that's why milnacipran felt so good to me, I don't know.
Some doctors recommend taking the lowest AD doses that are effective, and I agree with that. Very few doctors show any emphasis on diet, sleep, and exercise, and I disagree with that. They should be attending to the entire picture I think? Or at least informing the patient the importance of these other things besides just a pill?
Thyroid. Adrenals and thyroid are intricately linked. Case in point. I have always been borderline hyperthyroid. But after adrenal fatigue set in, my yearly thyroid test showed a striking surprise...I was now for the first time in my life borderline hypothyroid. I had fallen the entire length of the range in a year. My doctor explained it was the body's best, yet futile, attempt to keep things in balance. It purposely turned down the thyroid to match the turned down adrenals.
Thyroid problems are common with adrenal problems, but can be repaired by treating just the adrenals. But it takes time, 3 to 6 months. These changes happen slowly in small steps. Too much too fast can destabilize the patient and make them feel worse. But basically, repair the adrenals and the thyroid will catch up. The opposite is not often true.
Several books, magazines, internet studies, and a few hundred posts at other forums is what brings you the information I have shared here. Theories and opinions stated above are my own personal ones, based on what I personally have experienced and seen in others.
I have even seen a pubmed small study where low doses of hydrocortisone cured depression, and the theory is that it has something to do with getting the 5ht1a receptor to function properly, in addition of course to supporting the entire norepinephrine/adrenaline network. A few people however got worse depression from HC. I suspect their doses were too high. One must go on "feel", not on a predetermined dosing schedule.
Isocort first. It works good for maybe 2/3 of those who try it. The other 1/3 move on to HC. The entire approach on health management changes as well. It is a comprehensive approach, not a single pill, that will heal this thing. Hydrocortisone only after other things have failed. Max dose 20mg. Max time 1 year. Generally. Mileage varies, case studies vary, but that is the general picture.
> Hi, me again. Sorry for the bandwidth.
>
> Can isocort help 'heal' adrenals? (Or is it cortisol?)
>
> I was looking at my spit test from last summer, and I don't know what planet I was on when I thought the results were normal, but on re-examination, they are quite, quite low--scraping the bottom of normal.
>
> I didn't care for the holistic doc that ordered the test (she knew squat about thyroid) so I never went back.
>
> If you have any spare change, your two cents would be greatly appeciated.
>
> fb
>
> please, helpful, educational answers only--I really can't handle someone telling me how stupid I am for not being able to put the pieces of my thyroid thing w/ my adrenal thing :-) The relationship may be obvious to some, but not to me.
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 18:41:05
In reply to Re: isocort or adenal support for healing adrenals, posted by bleauberry on December 28, 2009, at 17:03:08
I don't think if you have hasimotos the autoimmune type that it will go away. When my sense of taste disappeared six years ago was on prednisone for a month. To stimulate the fibers in my nose as loss of taste is really loss of smell. Two taste and smell centers confirmed that with multiple testing the sniff strip testing, taste with multiple vials of chemicals. Next step was theophylline passed on that as it's highly stimulating. Phillipa ps still got the hashi's
Posted by inanimate peanut on December 28, 2009, at 21:54:12
In reply to Re: isocort or adenal support for healing adrenals, posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 18:41:05
Would an endocrinologist be the doc that deals with the adrenals? I have hypothyroid but maybe need my adrenals checked too in my upcoming appt.?
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 22:17:45
In reply to Re: isocort or adenal support for healing adrenals, posted by inanimate peanut on December 28, 2009, at 21:54:12
That's who I use but some use alternative docs pay usually out of pocket. Insurance for the endos. Good luck. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on December 29, 2009, at 22:06:09
In reply to Re: isocort or adenal support for healing adrenals, posted by bleauberry on December 28, 2009, at 17:03:08
Hi BB,
I really appreciate your generous reply--I've written two other replies to you and lost the drafts!
I meet w/ a doc that has done some research on depression and hpa axis dysregulation. I'm afraid to hope.
Your post was easy for me to understand and is really helpful. Thank you for sharing the information you've put together. It sounds like you've been through a lot. I'm sorry for that--and really appreciate your presence
hugs,
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on December 29, 2009, at 22:19:05
In reply to Re: isocort or adenal support for healing adrenals » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 16:40:57
> Fb don't feel bad it's hard to see things sometimes when related to yourself. So what were the norms and results? Love Phillipa
Phillipa, my chart looked like what BB described: scraping the very bottom of normal all day long. I know hashimoto's is here to stay--I'm thinking maybe anti-inflammatory type diet might help. There is also an infectious disease, immune. disorder specialist I might see, as well.
One of his specialties is cfs.
I've avoided docs my whole life. Sigh.
Peanut, good luck finding a good endocronologist--don't be afraid to shop if you can--and ask everyone you know for recommendations. Like any doc, they can have an agenda.
hugs to you both,
fb
Posted by Phillipa on December 29, 2009, at 23:44:41
In reply to phillipa + i. peanut, posted by floatingbridge on December 29, 2009, at 22:19:05
Fb when's the appointment? Are you scared? I feel that way about docs now seems they always find something wrong with me. Good luck Let me know how it goes if tomorrow? Love Phillipa
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