![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 0:02:26
When people argue that depssion is not chemical at all but just a mind over matter thing,i like to say this but i know it will go over their ignorant heads lol.Hear is a snip of a great article on a major player in depression,as well as a link to the site.
snip....
"Studies examining patients with major depressive disorders have also found a higher ratio of excitatory to inhibitory amino acids. Anxiety models have successfully used glutamate antagonists suggesting a similar excitatory:inhibitory neurotransmitter imbalance in these patients. Research in this area continues.
"
Posted by bleauberry on December 6, 2009, at 6:20:12
In reply to Depession...Chemical ?, posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 0:02:26
I don't think depression is biological or psychological or mind-over-matter or whatever. No, it is all of them at the same time. They each influence the other.
For example, harmful psychological habits actually change brain chemistry. Good habits do too.
Brain chemistry flaws will cause harmful psychological habits. That in turn makes the brain chemistry worse than it was.
Therefore, as I see it, it is extremely important to attack depression from all angles, not just the pills. The most successful depression eradication potentials involve comprehensive plans of: forced changed ways of thinking; pills (herbs or meds or supps); strategic food choices; strategic exercise routines; social involvement (will likely need to be forced and uncomfortable, but crucial nonetheless) (church, charities, sports, hobbies with other people, meetings, work or any kind, any or all of these); spiritual connection seeking God. We were given a world of free choice, so we can choose or trash any of the above at will, to our benefit or our demise.
We can see this whole process when someone starts to feel better on a lucky choice of a medicine that is good for them. Their psychological habits and behaviors and activities improve, and this in turn changes brain chemistry for the better, boosting what the pills are doing.
Biological and mind-over-matter...they are not separate issues. It is not one or the other. The are equal players that feed each other in directions of illness deterioration and in directions of illness eradication.
The above are my opinions, but I should add they are directly out of a textbook of one of my associates who is in med school studying to be a pediatric psychiatrict neurologist.
As to the glutamate thing, it aint that simple. A glutamate connection, if any exists, is probably 1/100th of the big picture. For every glutmate study I can show an equal or greater amount of studies coming to the same conclusions that are based on serotonin; or norepinephrine; or cortisol; or heavy metals; or infectious disease; or inflammation of the nervous system; or GABA; or dopamine; or cortisol; or MAO genes; or COMT genes; or methylation cycles....well, you get the picture.
Posted by inanimate peanut on December 6, 2009, at 15:54:46
In reply to Depession...Chemical ?, posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 0:02:26
All I need to convince me that depression is chemical was to be suicidally depressed for months and then feel 100% normal 24 hours within taking Geodon when nothing in my life circumstances had changed. I hadn't changed, only the chemicals had- and my depression was gone.
Posted by SLS on December 6, 2009, at 16:14:19
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by inanimate peanut on December 6, 2009, at 15:54:46
> All I need to convince me that depression is chemical was to be suicidally depressed for months and then feel 100% normal 24 hours within taking Geodon when nothing in my life circumstances had changed. I hadn't changed, only the chemicals had- and my depression was gone.
I agree with you. Depression can be 100% biological. It is too bad that it should be so hard to convince someone of this who hasn't had the same experience for themselves.
I hope you are doing well.
- Scott
Posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 16:22:13
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by bleauberry on December 6, 2009, at 6:20:12
Very true,and all the info you posted wasgood resources to hear.My point however was the chemicals mentioned in your posting,at least the majority of them,have addressed them with drugs aimed at them,i.e serotonin,noradarenaline,etc.
The main point of my post i believe,was that glutamte seems to be a new avenue of research that seems hopeful.
Thanks for the the response.
Posted by morganator on December 6, 2009, at 17:43:54
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by inanimate peanut on December 6, 2009, at 15:54:46
The biopsychosocial dynamic is the most commonly accepted cause for mental illness. I think there are very few or no cases where factors in our environment did not have an effect on our development and contribute somewhat to our illness. This is hard for most to accept. No one wants to look back and realize that their life perhaps could have been better if they had what they needed.
I would love to hear in detail the life that everyone here on psycho-babble had. I seriously doubt that anyone would be able to honestly say that they had all the love and nurture necessary to develop a healthy psyche. And if they were already biologically predisposed to a mental illness(which we all were I'm sure), there was a much greater chance of developing that mental illness and a mixed up brain chemistry to a point of major suffering.
I think it is more complex than what many realize. It is also very hard to undo the damage and rewire the brain once our chemistry has been altered one, two, or three times(I think medication use can put our brains in worse condition than it was before in many cases). And, we will always carry around the hurt, sadness, and anger from our past unless it is dealt with. This sadness and anger will negatively effect our brain chemistry at some point throughout our lives.
I just don't think we can deny the power, complexity, and fragility of the human psyche and how much the human psyche can play a role in the development of our brain chemistry/mental illness.
Relationships, love, lack of love, low self esteem, verbal and physical abuse, neglect, criticism, and a predisposed brain can all add up to a whole lot of suffering. A therapist, with a Phd. that did forensic work for Fairfax Co. Police just outside of D.C., said to me that if there were no criticism in the world(speaking of children being constantly criticized) she would probably be out of a job. She said criticism is as destructive as physical abuse. If that is true-which it makes sense that it is if you really think about it-it is just one example of how something in our environment can have such an impact on the way we develop and feel about ourselves. This can cascade into relationships going bad and feeling more and more hurt and damaged.
The biopsychosocial model makes the most sense to me. I think most of us could go back a remember that we were at some point fairly happy children. If we had it that bad from ages 2 to 4 there is a chance we may not have any memory of consistent happiness. The age period from 2 to 4 is crucial to our emotional/psychological development. It is very hard to rewire things after the age of 4. There is evidence that early traumas, stresses, neglect, or even lack of proper attachment to the parent have negative effects on brain development.
Posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 22:48:24
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by morganator on December 6, 2009, at 17:43:54
I dont think i could disagree with you anymore.If we were to accept it as a clinical condition as these scans show,then would that be no different then saying the same to a brain disorder such as seizures?
The brain is complex,and like any other part of the body prone to illness,if we can believe that as we are trying to understand,then why would we incorporate any psyco social attributes to a brain disorder.
I have a normal life,with normal ups and downs,and i know i cant deal with issues because of the illness,opposed to the issues causing depression.
Also on your theory we have to believe that certain individuals,and pick by pick were not able to handle life stressors and cracked,these would be the clinicaly depressed ones,and these people cracked under the same life circumstances non depressed people did,i suppose these people as myself just werent as strong?
Posted by morganator on December 6, 2009, at 23:31:56
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 22:48:24
I expect you and others to disagree.
> i suppose these people as myself just werent as strong?
I think having a biological predisposition means that it is harder for us to be as strong and not react so sensitively to things that happen to us. Other people are affected as well and may struggle in relationships and life to some degree as a result. The difference is that they do not get so low or feel so anxious that they cannot function.
I understand that biology is a big part of mental illness. I simply don't to believe that it is the one and only factor in the development of mental illness.
If you want to prove me wrong in your case, tell me your intimate details from your childhood. I don't expect you to do this and I don't expect you to remember exactly what was going on from the ages of 2 to 4. Besides, many people don't think that anything in their childhood was really bad when in reality it was. All it takes is a mother that is distant emotionally and cannot give her child the affection and love that the child needs. All it takes is a divorce or constant fighting or parents that don't show much emotion or are critical of everything you do. Add these conditions to a child who is predisposed to suffer from depression/anxiety/bipolar/schizophrenia and the chance of really suffering from these disorders increases considerably. Look maybe I'm wrong and you and others were just born with major depression, anxiety, or whatever. I just have a hard time believing that we are simply born depressed.
Depression and anxiety, even for the healthiest of minds, is a normal part of life. It just sucks that many of us suffer from it the way we do, whatever the reason
Posted by morganator on December 6, 2009, at 23:48:15
In reply to Depession...Chemical ?, posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 0:02:26
It's not that I don't think chemicals and neurotransmitters play a major role in depression for many suffers, I just don't think it is the only player. I think I'm being redundant now as I have probably already made that clear.
Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 6:29:34
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by morganator on December 6, 2009, at 23:48:15
> It's not that I don't think chemicals and neurotransmitters play a major role in depression for many suffers, I just don't think it is the only player.
Do you think that, once triggered by psychosocial stress, a depressive disorder can be biologically self-perpetuating, even after the stress is removed?
Do you believe that a systemic infection by a pathogen can trigger a depressive disorder?
- Scott
Posted by morganator on December 7, 2009, at 15:00:49
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ? » morganator, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 6:29:34
Yes I do believe in both of these theories.
>Do you think that, once triggered by psychosocial stress, a depressive disorder can be biologically self-perpetuating, even after the stress is removed?
I believe this has happened to me to some extent. Though I will admit, I would have a much easier time dealing with whatever is going on with me biologically if I all the stress in my life was removed. And, if all the stress was gone, with the right medication, I am positive I would go into almost complete remission and just experience brief mild bouts of feeling depressed.
>Do you believe that a systemic infection by a pathogen can trigger a depressive disorder?
Sometimes I almost wish this were the case with me.
Posted by southernsky on December 8, 2009, at 19:19:33
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by morganator on December 6, 2009, at 17:43:54
Morganator,
I agree with the biopsychosocial dynamic model. You really nicely summed that up, thanks. It reminded me of the experiment with the monkeys with the wire mother..as sad as it is to read about, it's hard to disagree that your childhood effects your behavior. We are not monkeys, but so close. Human beings have emotional needs for survival.
*
In Harlow's classic experiment, two groups of baby rhesus monkeys were removed from their mothers. In the first group, a terrycloth mother provided no food, while a wire mother did, in the form of an attached baby bottle containing milk. In the second group, a terrycloth mother provided food; the wire mother did not. It was found that the young monkeys clung to the terrycloth mother whether or not it provided them with food, and that the young monkeys chose the wire surrogate only when it provided food.
Whenever a frightening stimulus was brought into the cage, the monkeys ran to the cloth mother for protection and comfort, no matter which mother provided them with food. This response decreased as the monkeys grew older.
When the monkeys were placed in an unfamiliar room with their cloth surrogate, they clung to it until they felt secure enough to explore. Once they began to explore, they occasionally returned to the cloth mother for comfort.
Monkeys placed in an unfamiliar room without their cloth mothers acted very differently. They froze in fear and cried, crouched down, or sucked their thumbs. Some even ran from object to object, apparently searching for the cloth mother, as they cried and screamed. Monkeys placed in this situation with their wire mothers exhibited the same behavior as the monkeys with no mother.
Posted by southernsky on December 8, 2009, at 19:27:02
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by willyeee on December 6, 2009, at 22:48:24
Willyeee,
I don't see depression as a weakness-it can be viewed as a strength. Some who do not "get" depression may up with lots of anger or passive agressive behavior and can harm people emotionally. Depressives, imo, turn childhood confict inward, while non-depressives can turn it outward affecting others in detrimnetal ways.
It doesn't seem people who succumb to depression are not as strong-it seems they would be less likely to harm others when comparing maladaptive behaviors. I see it more positive than negative, just opinions.
I mean, how many diagnosed with antisocial personalities had an adequate childhood? Something to think about...
*
"Also on your theory we have to believe that certain individuals,and pick by pick were not able to handle life stressors and cracked,these would be the clinicaly depressed ones,and these people cracked under the same life circumstances non depressed people did,i suppose these people as myself just werent as strong?"
Posted by floatingbridge on December 8, 2009, at 23:42:54
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by morganator on December 6, 2009, at 17:43:54
>If we had it that bad from ages 2 to 4 there is a chance we may not have any memory of consistent happiness. The age period from 2 to 4 is crucial to our emotional/psychological development. It is very hard to rewire things after the age of 4. There is evidence that early traumas, stresses, neglect, or even lack of proper attachment to the parent have negative effects on brain development.
Yes, absolutely. However, I find the idea that traumas before 5 are almost irreversible a rather pessimistic prognosis given what can happen and what is being discovered about neuroplascity (which largely goes over my head, frankly). Unless I am misinterpreting the phrase 'very hard to rewire'.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on December 8, 2009, at 23:46:56
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ?, posted by southernsky on December 8, 2009, at 19:19:33
Well, yes. Addendum. Severe deprivation early in life. I agree with that. That's pretty hard to 'rewire'--always scars.
Those d*mn scars.
fb
Posted by morganator on December 9, 2009, at 0:33:09
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ? » morganator, posted by floatingbridge on December 8, 2009, at 23:42:54
Yeah I believe from what I have learned that it is very difficult, not nearly impossible. I would like to think it is possible in every case given the proper therapies. Early intervention is best, maybe play therapy followed by talk therapy and CBT or EMDR. Then there is neurofeedback and, of course, medication. In adulthood, I find that group therapy is highly effective.
It is also rare to find parents that recognized there was a problem and actions need to be taken to try to undo some of the damage. In an ideal world, parents and their children would be in therapy-group, family, and individual.
The end of this article briefly touches on the importance of a child's emotional development.
I know this is just commonly accepted theory but I thought it was interesting.
Posted by floatingbridge on December 12, 2009, at 4:50:36
In reply to Re: Depession...Chemical ? » floatingbridge, posted by morganator on December 9, 2009, at 0:33:09
Morganator,
especially liked the last link--and the erikson--I hadn't read that either. Thanks!
fb
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.