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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on April 17, 2009, at 11:05:29
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 16, 2009, at 17:43:44
> > I do believe ssris played into [this]. Partially by hiding a disease that was already in progress, until the disease got strong enough that the meds didn't stand a chance, and it looked like med poopout, but wasn't. The sensitivity to supplements and meds is because...something else is going on.
>
> What are the odds that most of the SSRI horror stories we hear are due to something like this?
>
> Whilst not wishing to belittle anyone's seemingly SSRI-related suffering (I suffered the worst SSRI-induced akathisia last year myself), it does worry me that the horror stories are putting a lot of people off meds who could be significantly helped.I don't think these drugs should be demonized, but I'll say that since the phenomenal sales of these drugs, and many ordinary doctors faith in them, the other side of the coin deserves to be fully explored, the few websites dedicated to negative propaganda on these drugs can never outweight the positive propaganda put forth by the pharma companies.
Posted by polarbear206 on April 17, 2009, at 13:06:34
In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07
Posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 14:58:36
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by NewQuestions on April 17, 2009, at 8:12:19
The problem with all of these stories, including our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would say that these symptoms are manifestations of the underlying disease, not the meds, and that the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault for not seeking medical care to treat the symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out of it.
> Read these stories. People need full information before making a decision as to whether to go on an SSRI. The drug companies surely won't tell you about this!
>
> http://www.paxilprogress.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20079
Posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 16:56:54
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 14:58:36
I'm sure they would use that defence, but it's possible that in some cases the symptoms aren't med-related and were being masked by meds, which is why we need to be cautious when reading these horror stories.
Is there even a scrap of rational scientific evidence that proves SSRI's caused these long-term effects?
> The problem with all of these stories, including our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would say that these symptoms are manifestations of the underlying disease, not the meds, and that the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault for not seeking medical care to treat the symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out of it.
Posted by Sigismund on April 17, 2009, at 19:40:34
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 16:56:54
>Is there even a scrap of rational scientific evidence that proves SSRI's caused these long-term effects?
Who would pay for it?
Posted by connor on April 18, 2009, at 0:02:31
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 16:56:54
I'm tired of doctors blaming everything on the condition itself. Sure it's possible, but, like me when you go on meds for one problem then suddenly a million others pop up that weren't there before you start to become suspicious. The doctors admit that they don't know exactly how these meds work yet they will never admit that these drugs can cause long term effects,
Anecdotal reports, are just that, anecdotal. But when every long term side effect is AUTOMATICALLY just passed off as the condition worsening, how on earth are these effects suppose to be documented. The side effects of these medications cause the exact same effects that depression causes. And because of that it's nearly impossible to prove any of this.
> I'm sure they would use that defence, but it's possible that in some cases the symptoms aren't med-related and were being masked by meds, which is why we need to be cautious when reading these horror stories.
>
> Is there even a scrap of rational scientific evidence that proves SSRI's caused these long-term effects?
>
> > The problem with all of these stories, including our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would say that these symptoms are manifestations of the underlying disease, not the meds, and that the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault for not seeking medical care to treat the symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out of it.I know based on my experience and reading many others to corroborate it that ssri's did cause long term damage
Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 1:24:44
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by connor on April 18, 2009, at 0:02:31
Mental illness seems to be progressive; that's the underlying truth that makes me skeptical of such claims. Yeah, sometimes i think my recent GAD symptoms are the result of protracted use of xxRIs-I still think about that. I'll never know. What I think mostly about now, however, is moving forward.
But think about the onset of mental illness. Ok, I realize coming from non-scientific Garnet isn't what anyone would necessarily believe, but isn't the average age of onset of schitzophrenia something like 28 years old? And what are "mental breakdowns" - now believed to be mental "breakthroughs"? Underlying predispositions?
If enviornment is 50% and genetics is 50% (in regard to mental illness), then wouldn't the brain have evolved, in whatever way it changed, partly from its life before psychiatric drugs were introduced?
Still, I like to hear all the anti-psych stuff. I think its important to evaluate things from all angles. Influence is just that. Influence from those groups or individuals that have the most money. Everything is a result of monetary dynamics, no matter how you look at it. So keep talking. That's what dialogue is for. Please stay open minded.
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:54:08
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » linkadge, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on April 17, 2009, at 1:34:35
>I think you would consider my story 'rosey' >then, as many of those so-called *evil* drugs >have helped me,
I'm not going to get into this whole debate again and I really don't have time to read your book of a post. I didn't use the word 'evil' and I think it would be helpful if people didn't jump to conclusions about my posts. All I said, is that "people have a right to hear about any and all experiences with these medications". As much as people like you want to tell people like us to just shut up and stop telling out stories, it ain't going to happen.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:55:44
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 17, 2009, at 1:43:18
I don't think we are trying to 'demonize' these medications, I think we are just trying to share our experiences.
Somehow you can't (or simply don't want to) believe that people could react adversly to these drugs.
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:59:26
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 14:58:36
>The problem with all of these stories, including >our own, is that any academic pinhead, pharm >expert, doctor, lawyer, judge, whoever, would >say that these symptoms are manifestations of >the underlying disease, not the meds, and that >the meds are needed. It is the patient's fault >for not seeking medical care to treat the >symptoms. I guarantee you that is their way out >of it.
And that has been the inaccurate but highly effective excuse for much psychiatric malpractice. Many psyhchiatrists know too well they easily can blame the patient and get away with it.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 20:03:06
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 19:54:08
Yes, there is plenty of evidence that these medicatiosn are less than perfect. But, unfortunately when the issue is brought up some people just happen to lose their jobs (eg. David Healey).
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 20:13:44
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 1:24:44
Mental illness *can* be progressive, but there is certainly no proof that this is the case with all patients.
Some people who have reacted adversley to long term SSRI use complain of symptoms that:
a) they never had before taking the medication
b) are not symptoms typically associated with
depression
c) Resolve upon reinsitution of the drugAnother thing that bothers me is that in most other areas of medicine, the patient's experience is generally respected.
I honestly believe however, that the advacement of psychiatry is significantly hindered by the fact that the patient's experiences are often shrugged off as "the underlying disorder".
It only took us like 20 years after SSRI's were introduced for there to be a medical agreement that the drugs can produce *withdrawl symptoms* (and they're still not called withdrawl symptoms for some strange reason)
That being said, I'm sure there are tons of other less common adverse reactions that will never see the light of day for the same reasons.
Linkadge
Posted by Garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 20:32:01
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by linkadge on April 18, 2009, at 20:13:44
Oh sorry Linkadge, I meant late onset (as opposed to progressive). not that it makes much of an argument, just thinking out loud. I mean most anyone I knew with mental health issues, such as family members who got phobias, anxieties, schitozphrenia, etc, developed these things later in life, late 20s and early 30s.
Anway I tend to agree that new symptoms would just be attributed to the underlying disorder. But how could you prove what causes the symptoms? You said an AD will cease symptoms--so anyone could argue that is because the AD is working. Now i'm confused. what am I saying. Never mind!
Posted by 4ed on April 18, 2009, at 23:42:02
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » linkadge, posted by Garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 20:32:01
Let me go out on a limb and tell you all... I was better off taking some MDMA, Ketamine, or Psiylocybin, on occasion. a single dose comibined with accompanying positive set and setting, fixed me for a good while off a single dose. maybe this knowledge makes me look at prescribed med treatment as a long term 50% effective treatment compared to these magical experiences that left me with a lust for life for many months after a single dose. maybe thats why they are all class 1 conrolled substances... they are too effective! And one dose your done... you might not even care to do it again and become an "addict"... these are not cocaine or heroin, a good trip last a good while, perhaps a lifetime... only for the headstrong? sorry if my comments are a little left wing. but I've given western pharmaceuticals their fair chance and its just not happening. 'cept for Xanax -- the ultimate bliss pill.
Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 23:44:18
In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07
OldQuestions,
"I stopped listening to music or watching movies because I can't enjoy them or anything else anymore. What really concerns me is the cognitive decline. I just can't think abstractly anymore. I can't learn. My attention to detail sucks."
Although I've had various ADD symptoms to contend with prior to anxiety/depression, I've experienced the same symptoms from SSRIs that you report. Although unlike you, as soon as I quit them, those symptoms greatly improved-but I have yet to get back to 'normal' especially in terms of cognition, motivation. I'm having some enjoyment of life issues, but not too bad since my mood is generally stable (aside from anxiety issues).
You're not going to like this--but I think you should try a new med combo - sans xxRIs. Adderall somehow works on dopamine - I felt so much more normal on that, but couldn't take it for other reasons.
I think you should try Provigil. I mean, look at it this way - what have you got to lose now???????
Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 23:45:02
In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07
....or Segeline
Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 23:51:54
In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07
Are you able to force yourself to exercise?
If not, something like Provigil or Segeline may correct some of your symptoms > which would allow you to regain exercise > which would enhance your body's ability to go back to homeostasis.
Ok-no medical theories here, just intuition. I can imagine being in that state that you are spending a lot of time doing nothing. I understand the misery. While on Zoloft, I spent the whole month of December doing aboslutely nothing but laying in my bed day and night-reading about medical problems on the internet. I had zero motivation. However, going off xxRIs and trying alternate drugs has led me to have the ability to exercise again. Although I still suffer from some issues, having a lapse right now from the inability to tolerate Adderall, I am so much better off, and am looking forward to a bright future. :-)
Like I said, what do you have to lose?
Posted by Sigismund on April 19, 2009, at 0:12:26
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by 4ed on April 18, 2009, at 23:42:02
Now you're talking.
Thank you.
Posted by SLS on April 19, 2009, at 7:04:05
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » linkadge, posted by Garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 20:32:01
> I meant late onset (as opposed to progressive)
Unfortunately, Major Depressive Disorder and Bipolar Disorder ARE progressive diseases in that symptoms worsen over time. There are also what seem to be neurodegenerative processes that occur over the course of the illness, especially if left untreated. The brains of people who are affectively ill demonstrate differences in structure and tissue volume when compared to those of healthy people. It is a scary thing to consider, but the good news is that many of these brain areas recover upon effective treatment, and although there are residual cognitive differences that can be detected in psychometric examinations, very often the differences are not noticed by the patient.
- Scott
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2009, at 7:28:02
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by 4ed on April 18, 2009, at 23:42:02
> Let me go out on a limb and tell you all... I was better off taking some MDMA, Ketamine, or Psiylocybin, on occasion. a single dose comibined with accompanying positive set and setting, fixed me for a good while off a single dose.
I'm going to have to agree with your thesis, although I employed LSD. I used to think of it as a mental tonic. The effect lasted a good long while.
Before MDMA became popular as a club drug, it was getting a lot of good scientific press for its use in psychotherapy. Then the "war on drugs" mentality took over.
Lar
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 14:12:38
In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07
Oh God, I know what you're talking about. I have said over and over that I wish I never would have been on an SSRI. I recall the 15 minute consultation I received in 1991, after which the doctor whipped out a prescription pad and prescribed Prozac. What a relevation the med was, for about a year. And after, what hell it has been. I too am sensitive to a ton of meds.
I took a break from all meds in April 2007 and ended up in the hospital in March 2008. A year later I am still trying to recover, as, for once in my entire history, the time I was off meds brought on not just a return of major depression, but skyrocketed anxiety and OCD. I cannot describe the hell I was in. It's too painful and it would be too triggering.
I am so sorry. I don't know what else to say to people's stories of hell on meds--I just want you to know that I understand.
Posted by linkadge on April 19, 2009, at 15:53:13
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by SLS on April 19, 2009, at 7:04:05
>Unfortunately, Major Depressive Disorder and >Bipolar Disorder ARE progressive diseases in >that symptoms worsen over time.
That is simply not true as a general statement.
Posted by linkadge on April 19, 2009, at 16:00:32
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » newquestions, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 14:12:38
New research is also showing that SSRI use among adolecents may actually increase depressive behavior in adulthood.
In mice they can acutally induce a model of adult depression by feeding young mice clomipramine or other SSRI drugs. They found that in mice, it leads to a rewiring of conections from the prefrontal cortex to the limbic system.
If the same is true in humans, it may mean we need to rethink the use of SSRI drugs in adolecent depression, especially for extended periods of time.
So when somebody comes on this board and says that they feel that their brain has been permanently altered by medications, why is that so hard for us to digest? From what I have seen, there are a lot of 20 somethings (like myself) who say they were put on SSRI drugs in adolecence and who are only having more problems now. I thinkg its totally possible that the exposure to drugs during that critical period of neural development has lead to some potentially permanat brain changes.
Oh no, my precious prozac would never do anything like that.
Linkadge
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 17:48:42
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by linkadge on April 19, 2009, at 16:00:32
I was put on in it my early 20s and I know that I am altered (in my late 30s).
Posted by connor on April 20, 2009, at 1:24:22
In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by linkadge on April 19, 2009, at 16:00:32
I think some people are brain washed, pure and simple. They don't understand how questionable a science antidepressants are. There's no proven chemical imbalance there are just correlations.When people are given ssri's, some people who are depressed go into remission, this doesen't mean that the problem was solved, it just means it happened to treat the symptoms, I could think of a million drugs to take that would make me feel damn good, ssri's just happen to be the agreed upon method
If this was at all scientific, we wouldn't have multiple classes of antidepressants. When you go on an antidepressant you are taking a shot in the dark period. I was put on these medication in my teens, and I lost so many feelings that make a person human. It's as simple as that. They numb your feelings, for some people this doesen't go away after quitting.
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