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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by desolationrower on March 7, 2009, at 2:16:13
lots of discussion about these on mindandmsucle at one point
has anyone used one?
any effect on mood?
any effect on body composition?
if you want to play along at home, pomegranate and tea are ACE inhibitors
-d/r
Posted by yxibow on March 8, 2009, at 1:16:09
In reply to ace inhibitors/Angiotensin II receptor antagonists, posted by desolationrower on March 7, 2009, at 2:16:13
> lots of discussion about these on mindandmsucle at one point
>
> has anyone used one?
>
> any effect on mood?
>
> any effect on body composition?
>
> if you want to play along at home, pomegranate and tea are ACE inhibitors
>
> -d/r
I believe that they should only be used on heart patients with a definite indication. They have a lot of potential side effects.My mother has permanent angioedema from an ACE inhibitor that was relatively new at the time. She takes a load of antihistamines to prevent a possible anaphylaxis.
It was also known unfortunately at the time or shortly after, I believe, that this was an emergent effect in patients.
Just due caution. They're much more serious agents than beta blockers and calcium channel blockers.
-- Jay
Posted by desolationrower on March 9, 2009, at 2:27:21
In reply to Re: ace inhibitors/Angiotensin II receptor antagonists » desolationrower, posted by yxibow on March 8, 2009, at 1:16:09
> > lots of discussion about these on mindandmsucle at one point
> >
> > has anyone used one?
> >
> > any effect on mood?
> >
> > any effect on body composition?
> >
> > if you want to play along at home, pomegranate and tea are ACE inhibitors
> >
> > -d/r
>
>
> I believe that they should only be used on heart patients with a definite indication. They have a lot of potential side effects.
>
> My mother has permanent angioedema from an ACE inhibitor that was relatively new at the time. She takes a load of antihistamines to prevent a possible anaphylaxis.
>
> It was also known unfortunately at the time or shortly after, I believe, that this was an emergent effect in patients.
>
> Just due caution. They're much more serious agents than beta blockers and calcium channel blockers.
>
> -- Jaywell the side effects aren't as bad as neuroleptics, which don't have any health benefits to accompany their risks.
-d/r
Posted by yxibow on March 9, 2009, at 5:33:51
In reply to Re: ace inhibitors/Angiotensin II receptor antagonists, posted by desolationrower on March 9, 2009, at 2:27:21
> > > lots of discussion about these on mindandmsucle at one point
> > >
> > > has anyone used one?
> > >
> > > any effect on mood?
> > >
> > > any effect on body composition?
> > >
> > > if you want to play along at home, pomegranate and tea are ACE inhibitors
> > >
> > > -d/r
> >
> >
> > I believe that they should only be used on heart patients with a definite indication. They have a lot of potential side effects.
> >
> > My mother has permanent angioedema from an ACE inhibitor that was relatively new at the time. She takes a load of antihistamines to prevent a possible anaphylaxis.
> >
> > It was also known unfortunately at the time or shortly after, I believe, that this was an emergent effect in patients.
> >
> > Just due caution. They're much more serious agents than beta blockers and calcium channel blockers.
> >
> > -- Jay
>
> well the side effects aren't as bad as neuroleptics, which don't have any health benefits to accompany their risks.
>
> -d/r
That's a completely broad generalization of antipsychotics. No health benefits ???
Of course there are health benefits, if mental health is on par with physical health which it should be.
Bringing people with severe bipolar or schizophrenic spectrum disorders out of a darkness, is just one I can name.
Preventing suicide in patients who have psychosis spectrum disorders is just one of many.
Yes, atypicals have side effects too, I don't need to be educated what Seroquel did to me, not to mention an aborted trial of Zyprexa, but these were rare effects.
And yes, I still take Seroquel for a very complicated off label use, because it allows me to have 'better functionality', a clinical term, but nonetheless important.They're far from perfect and I would be the first to say that taken as directed at a minimum effective dose, benzodiazepines are probably among the safest psychiatric agents, and yes, a variety of APs have notable risks. That's why they should be used judiciously and at their MED (minimum effective dose)
Side effects of ACE inhibitors can be just as permanent, and/or dangerous, if not more. You're talking about agents that directly act upon heart functions and should really only be cautiously used with people with fairly high blood pressure or congestive heart failure. Unproductive coughs, the list goes on to more serious effects.
Its risky waters, is what I'm saying to do off-label things with what are probably among our most powerful heart drugs before such agents heparin and amiodarone.Other antiarrhythmics pose less danger and are used frequently, such as beta blockers such aspropranolol and off lable uses of heart medications such as clonidine and guanfacine, which also shouldn't be combined together with beta blockers.
And they still have liability, pulse and blood pressure changes, that mean that continuous use and discontinuing them means gradual de-use.
-- Jay
Posted by desolationrower on March 9, 2009, at 22:44:44
In reply to Re: ace inhibitors/Angiotensin II receptor antagonists » desolationrower, posted by yxibow on March 9, 2009, at 5:33:51
ok, sooo
risk of dangerous side effect AP, ACEi
physical health benefits ACEi
some evidence for off-label use AP, ACEione drugs is mentioned all the time, other never is...are there really that many more people here with acute psychosis or mania than with hypertension?
-d/r
Posted by yxibow on March 10, 2009, at 4:25:23
In reply to Re: ace inhibitors/Angiotensin II receptor antagonists, posted by desolationrower on March 9, 2009, at 22:44:44
> ok, sooo
>
> risk of dangerous side effect AP, ACEi
> physical health benefits ACEi
> some evidence for off-label use AP, ACEi
>
> one drugs is mentioned all the time, other never is...are there really that many more people here with acute psychosis or mania than with hypertension?
>
> -d/r
You don't even know the half of it. Try walking in my shoes for 7 years, and not recognizing the person who for no known reason contracted a disorder that has been beyond exhausting, and I have never had a diagnosis of psychosis NOS ever before. No, I don't talk to trees or the like (sorry, I'm just being catty), but I have my own psychological pain.Not to say that people with diagnoses of psychosis are any less human or vastly need more dignity than they are afforded.
I'm just saying it came out of the blue, most of my serious OCD was over, I just had background anxiety and dysthymia before this.
There are numerous cases of people on this board with psychosis and it doesn't have to be 'acute'. Just because you have a psychosis does not mean you're unaware of your surroundings or have any less of a human value to yourself.
Sorry, I'm just not doing well with myself, I was a high achiever who went through 16 years of school to get this, and I want out of it. And I'm not trying to be high minded, please don't think I'm being snide about anyone else's intelligence.
I'm not trying to further an argument or not be civil, its just a sore spot.
-- Jay
Posted by desolationrower on March 10, 2009, at 17:21:02
In reply to Re: ace inhibitors/Angiotensin II receptor antagonists » desolationrower, posted by yxibow on March 10, 2009, at 4:25:23
> > ok, sooo
> >
> > risk of dangerous side effect AP, ACEi
> > physical health benefits ACEi
> > some evidence for off-label use AP, ACEi
> >
> > one drugs is mentioned all the time, other never is...are there really that many more people here with acute psychosis or mania than with hypertension?
> >
> > -d/r
>
>
> You don't even know the half of it. Try walking in my shoes for 7 years, and not recognizing the person who for no known reason contracted a disorder that has been beyond exhausting, and I have never had a diagnosis of psychosis NOS ever before. No, I don't talk to trees or the like (sorry, I'm just being catty), but I have my own psychological pain.
>
>
>
> Not to say that people with diagnoses of psychosis are any less human or vastly need more dignity than they are afforded.
>
> I'm just saying it came out of the blue, most of my serious OCD was over, I just had background anxiety and dysthymia before this.
>
> There are numerous cases of people on this board with psychosis and it doesn't have to be 'acute'. Just because you have a psychosis does not mean you're unaware of your surroundings or have any less of a human value to yourself.
>
> Sorry, I'm just not doing well with myself, I was a high achiever who went through 16 years of school to get this, and I want out of it. And I'm not trying to be high minded, please don't think I'm being snide about anyone else's intelligence.
>
>
> I'm not trying to further an argument or not be civil, its just a sore spot.
>
>
> -- Jayi just mean, i am referring to use of both drugs outside of their main indication.
-d/r
Posted by yxibow on March 10, 2009, at 21:19:51
In reply to Re: ace inhibitors/Angiotensin II receptor antagonists, posted by desolationrower on March 10, 2009, at 17:21:02
> > > ok, sooo
> > >
> > > risk of dangerous side effect AP, ACEi
> > > physical health benefits ACEi
> > > some evidence for off-label use AP, ACEi> i just mean, i am referring to use of both drugs outside of their main indication.
>
> -d/rYes, and within their own main indication -and- outside their own indication they both have liability effects, good health benefits, and I have to agree to disagree I guess on ACE inhibitors in psychiatry -- if it is anywhere, its merely in the labs.
There's no drug without its liability. It just depends how much. Gabapentin for most people would seem to have the least liability when prescribed reasonably. But everything has risks and benefits, we choose whether one is better than the other.
-- Jay
This is the end of the thread.
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