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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on February 15, 2009, at 23:53:47
In reply to Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 15, 2009, at 16:13:35
How bout providgil???? Love Phillipa
Posted by Deneb on February 16, 2009, at 0:40:04
In reply to Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 15, 2009, at 16:13:35
I think those people who take it and don't have ADD or ADHD do so illegally, that is, they buy it off the street from kids who sell their meds.
Those meds can be addictive, so IMO, yes, the doctor would think you are drug seeking.
I think they are basically a form of legal speed.
Posted by garnet71 on February 16, 2009, at 1:37:26
In reply to Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 15, 2009, at 16:13:35
Unless you have ADD/ADHD, then NO - it is not ok to take any drug for an illness which one does not have! Because people w/o disorders take drugs recreationally, that's the reason why some of us get treated as drug seekers and left to lose our minds by ER physicians and/or don't get the treatment that we need; or, are almost forced to self-medicate with illegal drugs and alcohol.
I understand those who self-medicate, due to lack of support or health insurance. There is a quite a bit of difference, imo, from recreational use and self-medicating...although recreational use can lead to addiction-an illness. It's unfortunate that, some of us can get all these drugs and more illegally-easier than some can legally.
Another angle is stigma - the stigma for ADD/ADHD is high. So many believe it does not exist, even though research has shown that 1. there is more grey matter in the brain vs. white matter in non-ADDers and 2. people with ADD/ADHD have been shown to have low dopamine levels. Who knows what other factors in the brain effect our cognition, or what the most accurate research says..but I'd like for those who deny its existence to go through one day of my son's life and see what they think of it then...after having one injury after the next...so hyperactive that you form bald spots on your head, jump out of your crib over and over--often landing on your head at 6 months old(and teen mother gets accused of child abuse for 'not holding baby enough') being punished throughout school for speaking out and forgetting something EVERY day....that would include forgetting desirable things, like NFL tickets for a game--not just homework...just seeing his frustration with schoolwork made ME frustrated...and dozens of other daily issues..or to have to sit through classes like me, seeing how every tiny piece of information a professor says relates to everything in the entire world...and not being able to take true or false tests because every answer is both true AND false. It wouldn't be so bad if the world conformed to us, but we have no other choice, of course, to conform to people who possess the most common brain chemistry among us. I've tried my damnest to 'think like others' - I just can't see things the way most others do, no matter how hard I try to conform.
Just like the stigma from alchoholism - because some people can drink socially/occasionally, some think everyone else can..
Similar to those with chronic pain - and depend on medications to KEEP them from getting depressed and functioning in their life - are often denied relief from debiliating pain becaues illegal use of pain medications. I had tremendous pain in my neck and back for years, and didn't know it was from anxiety at the time. I refused pain meds but decided to go to a pain management center, knowing that a 60 minute massage kept me out of pain for 2 weeks. The pain management centers don't even offer that!! Some remedies that have desirable effects carries stigma or denial from insurance companies. Yet, the same insurance company paid for me to have hundred of dollars of xxRIs per month..but wouldn't permit massage - which has many beneficial side effects.
Or the stigma for cancer patients who smoke weed, an herb you can grow in your back yard. People that are terminally ill--and know they have 6 months to live. How sad.
And like the stigma of depression; it's not a 'real' illness; people take Prozac to be happy; they/we are lazy and have no self discipline so we take a drug instead of 'solving' our own problems. if people only knew that Prozac makes so many of us miserable and UNhappy.lol.
It appears drugs that have desirable side effects carry a stigma, often manifesting as a stigma surrounding the actual illness they are prescribed for. People who use such drugs recreationally really hurt those with illnesses.
Sorry to go off in a tangent; this issue has caused me tremendous pain, personally. There are PLENTY of college kids out there who take ADD medication - and other scripts obtained illegally - and have never seen a doctor (but can afford to).
Chai, do you think you might have ADD/ADHD?
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 4:34:54
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school? » HappyChaiTea, posted by garnet71 on February 16, 2009, at 1:37:26
Well I have just learned through my Psych classes that the drug does help those even who don't have ADHD, that it can give one an edge. Kinda like Prozac can be used for many things other than depression.
I am not looking at doing drugs for recreation, I just need help with being able to focus in my studies so I can do well. Maybe my loss of focus can be aging, I am 40 now or it could be a result of taking Cymbalta too. All I know is that I am not able to remember things like I did before I took Cymbalta. I don't know if I have ADD or not, all I know is I need help because something isn't right with me losing my short term memory. I try to read and I can't seem to retain anything, and have to reread many times to remember anything.
Posted by garnet71 on February 16, 2009, at 9:35:55
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school? » garnet71, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 4:34:54
Hey Chai,
Short term memory problems are a VERY common side effect of many psych meds. I don't know of any drugs or remedies that help for that condition - except to switch meds or to not take them.
Since I quit everything a few weeks ago, I have not had short term memory problems (but have other cognitive issues). I'm now on Buspar (and small Xanax dose for short term)- both of which can also cause STMP according to some - just haven't seen it yet.
It's rough going back to school at that age for any of us ;) STill, you are very young and shouldn't have so much trouble retaining infor.
Is it only the stuff that doesn't interest you, or is it in general?
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 9:53:05
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school? » HappyChaiTea, posted by garnet71 on February 16, 2009, at 9:35:55
My short term memory is effecting everything, when I speak, I get lost in mid sentence and go completely blank. The thing about school is that the subjects this semester I am VERY interested in, so I know that isn't it. I pay attention in class, take notes and etc. It just feels the into goes right threw me. I am forgetting a lot of other stuff too at home, with my kids, it is effecting all areas of my life.
I know when I was on Prozac for a year or more, it wasn't working for my depression, but yet I still could think straight, and remember stuff.
I see my doct in about 2 hours, so hopefully he can help me.Thanks garnet for your support!
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2009, at 15:07:22
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school? » garnet71, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 9:53:05
The answer is no.
Also, the information you got from your psych class is partially wrong. While it is true some students use stimulants for cram sessions, they are typically used as energy boosters not necessarily as cognition enhancers. They are probably also used in this setting for short term mood ehancement. Infact, some research shows that stimulants tend to worsen cognition in people without ADHD when they are performing certain tasks especially unfamilliar ones.
A doctor would likely not prescribe a stimulant if you have no ADHD diagnosis and (as mentioned) if he did, he would be doing so illegally. Students who use stimulants for this purpose do so illegally.
Also, when they are used in this manner (usally in higher than recomended doses) they can produce nasty withdrawl etc.
I' not sure what you are referring to about prozac. While it can be used for more than depression (ie GAD, PDST, panic disorder, OCD) these are legitimate uses for people who have something wrong with them.
Linkadge
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 17:26:59
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2009, at 15:07:22
It was a long appointment, but I hope we have something to go by. First of all, I do have carpal tunnel, that is what my tingling of some of my fingers indicated.
I probably did not have a stroke even though my 1/2 my head and arm went numb, but I quickly recovered and it didn't go to my legs. So he thought it could be related to my migraines that started to show up at the same time, he said migraines can do this.
Then to my memory problem, he does see a little memory problem but not a really bad one. But if you look at my level of competence level before the I took CYmbalta, it was much higher , almost 2 1/2 grades higher. He said he didn't know of caused of Cymbalta causing short term memory problems, but I have read stuff that other people have said that have. So since my depression has been improved for awhile now, we are going to try to taper off of it, slowly. 60 mg every other day to 30mg every day , to 30 mg. every other day, than nothing.
The thing about the Ritlin or drugs like it, he said it is used for ADHD and for stoke victims, but I don't have either, so he said he would have to talk to his other doctors about it. I don't do drugs for recreational purposes, but if my doctor okayed a precib for something to help me remember stuff while studying, than I would.
So we will do some tests too to makes sure something serious isn't going on.
So I didn't get a lot of answers this time, but at least I have a plan.
Posted by utopizen on February 16, 2009, at 18:34:31
In reply to Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 15, 2009, at 16:13:35
> I heard from my psych class that these drugs are used by people who do not have ADD Or ADHD, but they take it to help them study and focus.
>
> If I ask my doct if I can have some, will he think I am some kind of drug addict or something? Do you think he will prescribe it if I don't have ADHD?
>keep in mind, a lot of kids in college like to think they don't have a mental illness, and think it's more fashionable to claim it's some cute fad.
using amphetamines to stay up has been in news since the 1930's.
every 5 years, it's become a new news story ever since.
if you want to be smelly, anxious, and hyper-focused so much you can't pass a test, feel free to experiment.
some find using the library instead does wonders...
Posted by Garnet71 on February 16, 2009, at 20:03:00
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2009, at 15:07:22
> A doctor would likely not prescribe a stimulant if you have no ADHD diagnosis and (as mentioned) if he did, he would be doing so illegally. Students who use stimulants for this purpose do so illegally.
>Linkadge,
Can't doctor's now write scripts to resolve symptoms other than what the meds were designed for? Or is that just for the less-controlled meds? I mean, if Chai's doc felt ADD/ADHD meds would help him (not that they would for those particular symptoms), how would it be illegal?
Posted by Garnet71 on February 16, 2009, at 20:08:23
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by Deneb on February 16, 2009, at 0:40:04
Hi Deneb,
"I think they are basically a form of legal speed."
I think, I could be wrong, that when you have the imbalance that causes ADD/ADHD, the stimulants do not react as 'speed' as you say.
Sor far I've been taking Ritalin (20 mg. x 2) for 2 days--it feels more like I took a Xanax than anything. Even when I took the first dose, that nervous feeling in my chest (that Xanax takes away)--went away w/in an hour. It was calming. It's like Xanax with a bonus of having a calmer mind when I do mental things...but it doesn't really help my focus as I had hoped. Not yet anyway. Nothing like speed though. Although I've never tried 'speed'--I've heard a lot about it.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 20:40:22
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for sch, posted by utopizen on February 16, 2009, at 18:34:31
> keep in mind, a lot of kids in college like to think they don't have a mental illness, and think it's more fashionable to claim it's some cute fad.Well my prof. said that grad school students do it a lot too, and that it actually does help concentrate and give them an edge.
I am in no way a druggie, in fact I HATE taking any kinds of meds, so I am not going to experiment with something that can mess me up.
When I heard that it could help with concentration, I thought maybe it would be okay for my doc to precribe for me because it would help with my memory loss.
If I wasn't having this problem, I wouldn't need any help as I am a honor roll student with 3.99 GPA. So I DO know how to study. But studying isn't working for me now for some reason, I can't remember what I read 2 hours later. Even stuff I really enjoy, even reading for just enjoyment.
It is very scary for me to have this problem, I don't want to give up college or my future carreer because I can't retain any info.
> using amphetamines to stay up has been in news since the 1930's.
>
> every 5 years, it's become a new news story ever since.
>
> if you want to be smelly, anxious, and hyper-focused so much you can't pass a test, feel free to experiment.
>
> some find using the library instead does wonders...
Posted by seldomseen on February 16, 2009, at 20:56:50
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2009, at 15:07:22
Off label use of a drug is not illegal in the US. Although most scientific organizations are being very very careful about how they allow the off label use of drugs to be presented at meetings or advocated for in any fashion without safety data.
It is up to the discretion of the provider.
Modafinil originated as a drug for narcolepsy, yet quickly attained application as an adjunct, or outright replacement for SSRIs. This drug is still only indicated for shift work sleep disorders, sleepiness due to sleep apnea and narcolepsy.
Also, a cancer drug, hydroxyurea has wide application in sickle cell disease because of a side effect that drug induces.
After all, taking diphenydramine to induce sleep is an off label use of a drug.
My neurologist actually offered me Ritalin for post-concussion cognitive impairment.
I could go on and on, but won't. It may not be listed in the "best practices" handbook for physicians, but it is not illegal.
Posted by desolationrower on February 17, 2009, at 3:47:07
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school? » garnet71, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 9:53:05
well, taking some AMP to study better is considered 'abuse' by many, such as the AMA, and its a public health crisis, don't you know. Public health people are fascists w/o the cool logos and art deco fetish, so i encourge spitting in their coffee. as long as you don't get addicted, some amp is a good study aid. lots of people have done it for years. as for treating post-snri sequela, how long have you been off it?
-d/r
Posted by Paulbwell on February 17, 2009, at 7:13:50
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by Deneb on February 16, 2009, at 0:40:04
"Those meds can be addictive"
I wish a shrink had told me this when he said i have 'adult adhd' 5 years ago.
He NEVER told me:
-Ritalins addictive nature was common knowledge for decades
-USA put Ritalin under hard narcotic controls in 1971
-Sweden banned it in 1968 due to wide abuse.
Posted by Sigismund on February 17, 2009, at 18:22:43
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2009, at 15:07:22
My experience was that amphetamine was not helpful for reading, but it was really good for doing exams.
Posted by garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 21:17:09
In reply to Back from my Doc, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 16, 2009, at 17:26:59
Hi Chai,
"It is very scary for me to have this problem, I don't want to give up college or my future carreer because I can't retain any info."
Hope you are well today. While ADs can cause short-term memory problems, and since your cognitive problems emerged so quickly for you, in terms of memory, it sounds like a good idea to wean off the Cymbalata...but is that being replaced by anything else?
I would imagine you are under a lot of stress right now...if I recall, you said you have children? Do you work too? Going back to school with those periphials is tough as it is, but having the mental health issues creates a lot of obstacles for you. Please be careful when tapering off your meds.
I had to drop out of grad school just this semester; it was devastating. I quit all my meds because they were making me worse; then I had a relaps and the severe anxiety came back. Even if I didn't quit the xxRIs, I still would have not made it through the semester. When that realization crossed my mind, that's when I sought out and found this forum. I hope I can resume classes in the fall, but I'm not so sure; for right now, i still have my UG to finish by summer. My doctor told me last visit how so many symptoms can be causeed by anxiety. I had it so bad that the ends of words sloped downward at a 45 degree angle.
Universities have no mercy for us - there is no FMLA or other assistance. And being older students, we are expected to do the same as a lot of very young people who live on campus or very close by, don't work, have no bills, and have no children. At least that's how it mostly is at my universitys. You really should give yourself a huge pat on the back for keeping your GPA up. That's a HUGE accomplishment there Chai. You are very strong and ambitious; you will go far.
Posted by jane d on February 17, 2009, at 23:50:24
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school? » linkadge, posted by Garnet71 on February 16, 2009, at 20:03:00
> Can't doctor's now write scripts to resolve symptoms other than what the meds were designed for? Or is that just for the less-controlled meds?Um, sort of. I know that, at least in some places, stimulants cannot be prescribed for weight loss. They can still be prescribed off label for other uses. But the prescriptions for controlled meds are tracked. And doctors can be prosecuted for prescribing controlled meds that get diverted for resale. This is (naturally) going to make them very cautious about who they prescribe them to and what they prescribe them for.
Posted by Garnet71 on February 18, 2009, at 0:23:05
In reply to Off label prescribing of stimulants » Garnet71, posted by jane d on February 17, 2009, at 23:50:24
Posted by Garnet71 on February 18, 2009, at 0:27:40
In reply to Off label prescribing of stimulants » Garnet71, posted by jane d on February 17, 2009, at 23:50:24
Thanks Jane, my main concern is whether or not it was illegal, as Linkadge had previously mentioned. I do realize controlled meds are tracked, hence the world 'controlled'; however, controlled does not equal banned. It makes sense that doctors make the call using his/her professional judgement.
-----------------------
Linkadge,Can't doctor's now write scripts to resolve symptoms other than what the meds were designed for? Or is that just for the less-controlled meds? I mean, if Chai's doc felt ADD/ADHD meds would help him (not that they would for those particular symptoms), how would it be illegal?
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 18, 2009, at 1:06:22
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by desolationrower on February 17, 2009, at 3:47:07
> Public health people are fascists w/o the cool logos and art deco fetish, so i encourge spitting in their coffee.
Please don't post anything that could lead others, such as those who may work in public health, to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternate ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin, and should of course, be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
--10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 18, 2009, at 1:06:54
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for sch, posted by utopizen on February 16, 2009, at 18:34:31
> some find using the library instead does wonders...
Please don't be sarcastic, and please be sensitive to the feelings of others (such as students who do use libraries but may also take prescribed stimulant medications) by not posting anything that could lead them to feel put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternate ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin, and should of course, be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
--10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 18, 2009, at 8:43:05
In reply to Re: Back from my Doc, posted by garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 21:17:09
> Hope you are well today. While ADs can cause short-term memory problems, and since your cognitive problems emerged so quickly for you, in terms of memory, it sounds like a good idea to wean off the Cymbalata...but is that being replaced by anything else?Hi Garnet(love your name btw)
I am weaning off Cymbalta and so far so good, Day 2, lol. I am not replacing my AD yet unless I need to. I might not be depressed any longer, so we are going to test to see. He said I will know in 3 weeks if I need another AD or not.
Yes, I do have a lot on my plate, I have 2 kids I homeschool, a new puppy, college, and I work at a juvenile center for an internship I am doing which is almost over, plus trauma therapy. I probably have too much on my plate now that i think about it.
>
> I would imagine you are under a lot of stress right now...if I recall, you said you have children? Do you work too?
>
> I had to drop out of grad school just this semester; it was devastating.I dropped out a semester too this Fall and the summer before! It does suck I imagine it is even worse if you are in Grad school. I am glad you found this forum too, but be careful sometimes it can be hurtful too.
I hope I can resume classes in the fall, but I'm not so sure; for right now, i still have my UG to finish by summer.GIve it some time, I am glad I took some time off to work on my issues. In fact I think it makes us better because we realize what our limits are at the moment.
My doctor told me last visit how so many symptoms can be causeed by anxiety. I had it so bad that the ends of words sloped downward at a 45 degree angle.
Ihave never heard about the word thing before, that had to be scary. Anxiety is a nasty beast for sure.
>
> Universities have no mercy for us - there is no FMLA or other assistance. And being older students, we are expected to do the same as a lot of very young people who live on campus or very close by, don't work, have no bills, and have no children.
Yeah, I know, luckliy my college is understanding. But yeah, I see students who that is all they have to do, no job, no kids, and yet they complain how rough it is. They have no idea how rough it is to have classes like they do AND a family of responsibilities. But yet prof. like us older students it seems because we are there because we want to be, we are paying for it ourselves, and we normally are very good students.
You really should give yourself a huge pat on the back for keeping your GPA up. That's a HUGE accomplishment there Chai. You are very strong and ambitious; you will go far.Thanks Garnet,
That is sweet of you to say, it does feel good. I didn't have those grades in prior school when I was a kid, but that is another issue in itself. I think you are strong too, you know yourself enough to do what is best for you. School will always be there for you when you are ready to return. Sometimes "real life" is more important.
Take care of yourself, and thank you for the support.
Posted by B2chica on February 19, 2009, at 11:29:34
In reply to Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school?, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 15, 2009, at 16:13:35
hi.
linkage is right about the info from your psych class, most people who take adderall or ritalin non_rx are taking it for the energy. the thing is even that wears off after a couple months and you have to up the Rx or stop it for a while then start again.i'm glad you talked to your doc about it, i was going to suggest that until i read your reply. i think most docs (if you have a good relationship with them) are pretty honest and not accusatory.
but i also want to mention that asking for a SPECIFIC add/adhd med might send red flags.many times in adults docs will start you with a non-stimulant such as strattera.
*****
i hope going off cymbalta works for your memory.i know that when i was on seroquel i had severe cognitive blunting after about a month. once i was off it (a few weeks) things returned.
Best wishes.
b2c.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 23, 2009, at 22:02:33
In reply to Re: Is it okay to take Ritalian or Adderal for school? » HappyChaiTea, posted by B2chica on February 19, 2009, at 11:29:34
Hey B2,
There are actually studies out there that taking Ritalin does help in cognition of the brain, so it isn't just energy, it can help you retain into too.
Luckily for me, my doct knows me well, and knows I wanted to do something for my short term memory, not to get high or anything.
This is the end of the thread.
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