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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on January 24, 2009, at 14:45:20
I have been experimenting with salvia over the last couple of days. I do notice some mild short term visual distortion and some slight acute panicky feelings but after this passes I notice some substantial mood improvement which lasts almost a day.
It doesn't feel like a traditional antidepressant (ie no zoned out numb feeling). I just feel that the incredablly deep emotional overtones seem greatly diminished for a while.
I realize that as a kappa agonist it shouldn't produce mood improvement, but perhaps it desensizes the kappa receptor or something. I am confused.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 16:48:39
In reply to Experiences with salvia, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2009, at 14:45:20
I didn't know what salvia was, so I went and looked it up. Apparently your reaction to it is basically in line with what it is supposed to do. The visionary effects only last a few minutes, followed by improved mood, improved insight, more spiritual. But with some people it is a feeling of dysphoria instead. I'm glad that isn't you. :-)
I guess my only concern, whether it be you or me or someone else, would be the longer term effects. Would they be good or bad? Would they be reversible or no? But then, those concerns exist with any psych drug as we all know, and probably a lot of other things too.
How are you consuming it? Smoke? Tincture? Swallowing? How much do you take?
Posted by yxibow on January 24, 2009, at 19:10:24
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 16:48:39
Divinorum? In the alternative range of course. I'm sure (ahem) Erowid probably also has "experiences".
Although some of those are just really odd, people piling on not one drug to test, but like three at a time.
-- Jay
Posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 19:18:51
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 16:48:39
I just also looked it up for those who didn't wiki. Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on January 25, 2009, at 0:37:57
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by yxibow on January 24, 2009, at 19:10:24
>Erowid probably also has "experiences".
It certainly does.
One bloke, IIRC, got stuck to his chair.
I eat a packet once and nothing happened.
Posted by Sigismund on January 25, 2009, at 0:38:58
In reply to Experiences with salvia, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2009, at 14:45:20
>a kappa agonist shouldn't produce mood improvement,
That's what I wondered.
Posted by linkadge on January 25, 2009, at 7:18:42
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 16:48:39
I was chewing about 0.1 g at a time. After the bitter flavor had left I just ingest it. The visual effects only last about 15 min. They were not strong at this dose. After it wears off I don't notice any residual effects.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 25, 2009, at 7:24:55
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by Sigismund on January 25, 2009, at 0:37:57
The first time I just ate some and nothing happened. The second time I chewed it for about 10 - 15 min.
Its certainly not LSD if thats what you are expecting.
Salvoin A is supposedly as potent as dynorphin itself. I think there must be something else going on. Why would peopeople ingest something which (theoretically) should be an extremely potent dysphoriant.
I am wondering if it has mixed binding to the receptor or something.
At any rate, I still feel good today.
Linkadge
Posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:40:58
In reply to Experiences with salvia, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2009, at 14:45:20
I would not take this herb. It is so unpredictable-it can cause temporary insanity (and perhaps permanent insanity).
I knew a guy who took LSD. One day he tripped to much and never got his brain back. Salvia sounds pretty similar.
He was as agood of a guitar player as Randy Rhodes and other famous ones of the 80s. And a smart and good looking guy.
You should see him now.
It is not worth it.
Posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 11:41:01
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia » linkadge, posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:40:58
Salvia can be really great. Basically, by activating the kappa opioid receptor, it causes the immediate actions. The longer-lasting positive effects are the rebound.
Its not 'enjoyable' per se. But it makes for ao very interesting experience. The initial thing i feel is a fear and lostsness. This turns into a very distorted sense of reality, of lack of boundaries, etc. Slowly the world starts to make sense again, and things become very amusing, although in a colder way than the giggly sense of being high. I think its a good experience, it helps with anxiety because i face fear straight on, and come out having beaten it. Someone said it is the feeling of dying and being reborn i htink that has some truth.
in general, KOR antagonists are antidepressants. But salvia is suhc a short halflife, its like you force all the depression into a 10 minute period, and then theres no left for the next day or two.
btw, the Kappa opioid system is basically in opposition with the mu system, and activation of one desensitizes it while it sensitzes the other. taking heroin desensitizes mu receptors. So it feels great for a bit, and then you feel depressed as the mus become desensitized (and KOR become more sensitive). taking salvia is the reverse (and, btw, makes it sort of anti-addictive. Even though its a very interesting experience, and one that make me feel good afterward, i have to make myself smoke it.)
for much more info, http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=28350&st=0
btw, it might be on its way to being scheduled. Nothing i hate so much as the drug war and the shltheads who want to keep their children 'safe'.
-d/r
Posted by Valero on January 25, 2009, at 12:16:00
In reply to Experiences with salvia, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2009, at 14:45:20
I think your posting belongs to the "Substance use"
section.( or over on the excellent www.erowid.org) While certain individuals may feel a short term revitalization by the use of hallucinogenic substances, they definitely have no place in a forum where most readers are dealing with depression/anxiety/ psychosis etc. They are at best a risky strategy for the very psychologically robust. A good dose of X20 Salvia extract might convince you of this, failing that DMT ( smoked, intense and mercifully short) (or orally with an MAOI for 2 hrs of utter insanity).
Good luck.
Posted by linkadge on January 25, 2009, at 13:25:11
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia » linkadge, posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:40:58
Salvia is nothing like LSD as far as I am concerned. I am not too worried about going psychotic or anything. Its really about knowing what dose does what. Sometimes it is nice to take a liitle trip away from reality.
When I compare pharmaciducals to non pharmaciduacls sometimes I wonder. I think long term SSRI use has probably done the most dammage to me. Salvia seems pretty mild in comparison.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 25, 2009, at 13:31:32
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 11:41:01
>Its not 'enjoyable' per se. But it makes for ao >very interesting experience. The initial thing i >feel is a fear and lostsness. This turns into a >very distorted sense of reality, of lack of >boundaries, etc.
That was a very acurate description. Yes, the loss of boudaries thing is quite profound. I was in the forrest and I felt like I was the forrest and like the trees were a part of me. It all feels like a rehamonization with the universe. Like the internal and the external become ballanced again.
>Slowly the world starts to make sense again, and >things become very amusing, although in a colder >way than the giggly sense of being high.
I remember watching the plants dancing in the wind. It was very amusing.
>I think its a good experience, it helps with >anxiety because i face fear straight on, and >come out having beaten it.Yes that is true. Its like it exposes you to what is bothering you most, but in a kind of controlled way.
The second time around was better for me since I knew what quality of anxiety I would be exposed to.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 25, 2009, at 13:36:11
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by Valero on January 25, 2009, at 12:16:00
>While certain individuals may feel a short term >revitalization by the use of hallucinogenic >substances, they definitely have no place in a >forum where most readers are dealing with >depression/anxiety/ psychosis etc.
I completely disagree. I have been ingesting prescription medications for clinical depression for the last 8 years of my life will little to no sucess. If I can take a single dose of a substance that makes me feel better for 2-3 days afterwards I think I should share my experience. Afterall, science often learns more about the effects of substances this way.
>They are at best a risky strategy for the very >psychologically robust. A good dose of X20 >Salvia extract might convince you of this,
I have been doing 20-40x once every 2-3 days and feeling just fine.
>failing that DMT ( smoked, intense and >mercifully short) (or orally with an MAOI for 2 >hrs of utter insanity).DMT is a different drug with a completely different mechanism of action. I am not about to rush out and try it nor am I recomending it in this post.
Linkadge
Posted by bulldog2 on January 25, 2009, at 18:11:22
In reply to Experiences with salvia, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2009, at 14:45:20
> I have been experimenting with salvia over the last couple of days. I do notice some mild short term visual distortion and some slight acute panicky feelings but after this passes I notice some substantial mood improvement which lasts almost a day.
>
> It doesn't feel like a traditional antidepressant (ie no zoned out numb feeling). I just feel that the incredablly deep emotional overtones seem greatly diminished for a while.
>
> I realize that as a kappa agonist it shouldn't produce mood improvement, but perhaps it desensizes the kappa receptor or something. I am confused.
>
> Linkadge
>
>What form of salvia are you using? I smoked some a few years ago and experienced nothing..
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on January 25, 2009, at 20:55:29
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by linkadge on January 25, 2009, at 13:36:11
> >While certain individuals may feel a short term >revitalization by the use of hallucinogenic >substances, they definitely have no place in a >forum where most readers are dealing with >depression/anxiety/ psychosis etc.
>
> I completely disagree. I have been ingesting prescription medications for clinical depression for the last 8 years of my life will little to no sucess. If I can take a single dose of a substance that makes me feel better for 2-3 days afterwards I think I should share my experience. Afterall, science often learns more about the effects of substances this way.
>
> >They are at best a risky strategy for the very >psychologically robust. A good dose of X20 >Salvia extract might convince you of this,
>
> I have been doing 20-40x once every 2-3 days and feeling just fine.
>
>
> >failing that DMT ( smoked, intense and >mercifully short) (or orally with an MAOI for 2 >hrs of utter insanity).
>
> DMT is a different drug with a completely different mechanism of action. I am not about to rush out and try it nor am I recomending it in this post.
>
>
> LinkadgeI stand behind you 100 percent Link. "Whatever gets you through the night.."..and there seems to be no dangers associated with this stuff. If I could find a way to use heroin (or LSD, or X, etc) to control my anxiety and depression, in a safe manner (and mostly free from war-on-drugs cops), I'd do it. I am not saying salvia is anything like heroin...but you know what I mean. We only live once...my belief is to use up, and not waste, every single moment you can to make life better. That is exactly what you are doing...and that is great!
Best wishes with it all...
Jay
Posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 22:07:14
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by Valero on January 25, 2009, at 12:16:00
> I think your posting belongs to the "Substance use"
> section.( or over on the excellent www.erowid.org) While certain individuals may feel a short term revitalization by the use of hallucinogenic substances, they definitely have no place in a forum where most readers are dealing with depression/anxiety/ psychosis etc. They are at best a risky strategy for the very psychologically robust. A good dose of X20 Salvia extract might convince you of this, failing that DMT ( smoked, intense and mercifully short) (or orally with an MAOI for 2 hrs of utter insanity).
> Good luck.wow, i'd love to hear how you distinguish between 'substance use' and, oh, what is this forum about? oh yeah, 'medication'. i mean, other than that one is accepted by current middle class white american value system, and the other isn't.
-d/r
Posted by bulldog2 on January 26, 2009, at 8:58:08
In reply to Experiences with salvia, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2009, at 14:45:20
> I have been experimenting with salvia over the last couple of days. I do notice some mild short term visual distortion and some slight acute panicky feelings but after this passes I notice some substantial mood improvement which lasts almost a day.
>
> It doesn't feel like a traditional antidepressant (ie no zoned out numb feeling). I just feel that the incredablly deep emotional overtones seem greatly diminished for a while.
>
> I realize that as a kappa agonist it shouldn't produce mood improvement, but perhaps it desensizes the kappa receptor or something. I am confused.
>
> Linkadge
>
>Sounds interesting. Read up on it and they recommend a sitter to make sure you don't hurt yourself during the intense period. Did you ever feel out of control and loose a sense of your body?
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2009, at 9:10:49
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by bulldog2 on January 26, 2009, at 8:58:08
I have tried the tincture a few times, to try to get this "rebound" effect" people talk about. I have yet to get any profound effects, but I think there are a couple of reasons for this. 1. The tincure must not hit the KOR hard enough because I am not getting any of these "deep feelings" at all..basically just numbness and tingling and definitely feel a little intoxicated but its been pretty subtle - this is nothing like what I hear others say its like when they use salvia.
2. Also, I have heard use of alcohol beforehand will prevent the salvia "experience". I had a couple of beers beforehand each time and the tincture is also a very high proof of alcohol, so this may be a problem.
Anyway, I am really wanting to try a small dose of bupe for kappa antagonism. Anyone know the minimum dosage to obtain sufficient kappa antagonism?
PS- and for those of you who are claiming discussion of salvia is "proper" discussion for this board. that is absolutely absurd. Do you have any idea what kind of harm the multiple psychotropic medications most of you are taking are doing to your mind/body? No.. of course not b/c no one does- so chill out.
Posted by desolationrower on January 26, 2009, at 11:13:11
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2009, at 9:10:49
by tincture you mean you are drinking it? it isn't well absorbed by the stomach/intestines. you have to smoke it or take it sublingually/buccally.
-d/r
Posted by linkadge on January 26, 2009, at 13:10:42
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by bulldog2 on January 26, 2009, at 8:58:08
>Sounds interesting. Read up on it and they >recommend a sitter to make sure you don't hurt >yourself during the intense period. Did you ever >feel out of control and loose a sense of your >body?
No no, nothing like that. I had a sitter the very first time I took it. I never felt out of control or anything. I wouldn't recomend riding a unicycle while on it or anything.
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2009, at 15:04:11
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by desolationrower on January 26, 2009, at 11:13:11
Yeah, i actually took it sublingually and held in my mouth for about 15-20 mins like I read on some salvia board. Its truly horrible tasting.
I thought I wasn't taking enough, so I used up to 4-5 droppers last time, juts to try to get an effect - but no dice. But again, I had ingested some alcohol ( actually a few) beforehand so that may have interfered with it working.
Posted by JayBTV2 on January 26, 2009, at 15:10:58
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2009, at 15:04:11
I tried it once and it was a pretty bad experience. Really knocked me on my a$$. I had some of the "20x" variety and smoked it. Felt like I could see stitching in my field of vision (as if the world I saw through my eyes had seams like a baseball). Also thought there was a girl tied to my ceiling.....yea not too pleasant....
If you want to see how messed it can make you (albeit for like 2-5min) search salvia on YouTube. There are hundreds of videos of teenagers "tricking" their buddies into thinking it's like smoking pot. Then they watch/film them totally losing it....
Perhaps I did too much or something but it wasn't my cup of tea and I do tend to like "tripping". DXM (cough syrup) was a big problem for me the last couple years....
My .02
-Jay
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2009, at 15:15:53
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by JayBTV2 on January 26, 2009, at 15:10:58
Yeah, i have seen some of those vids and it pisses me off big time. If you are going to delve into hallucinogens you need to be mentally prepared and if someone "tricked" me into that , there would be hell to pay later. That is just wrong..
Anyway, is the consensus that Salvia probably exerts its beneficial effects by downregulating kappa opiate receptors? is there any other way to do this without hallucinating? I thought I had heard on this board that regula aerobic exercise had that effect too? True?
Anyone know any other ways to achieve this?
Posted by linkadge on January 26, 2009, at 18:13:29
In reply to Re: Experiences with salvia, posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2009, at 15:15:53
In some studies exercise induces a transient increase in dynorphin levels which could also work to desensitize the receptor.
It is strange though that you don't hear of anyone tripping on endogenous dynorphin. I still think there is something else going on with salvia. I havn't heard of other hallucinogenic kappa agonists.
Linkadge
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