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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 7:46:12
There's an awful lot of talk about how depression and such relates to early psychological (autobiographical)history. But I wonder why mania (or hypomania) is typically thought of as an abnormal *brain* function. What is the psychological purpose of the other pole of the bipolar spectrum. What function does it serve?
Anyone got any ideas? maybe some interesting citations or such. I know about Melanie Klein's "the manic defense" but aside from this 65 year old psychoanalytic theory, I'd be interested in hearing more contemporary thoughts.
-Ll
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 17, 2008, at 8:14:17
In reply to what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 7:46:12
Maybe it serves as a balance to a severe depressive episode - the inevitable swing in the opposite direction. Something like the law of physics going on in our brains.
And maybe it serves as the true source of man's supposed superiority over lesser beings on the planet. Do other animals ever exhibit behaviors consistent with hypo-/mania? Where else do the really great ideas of the world come from except from those who are at least slightly "touched"?
pc
Posted by seldomseen on December 17, 2008, at 9:42:06
In reply to what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 7:46:12
I mean I am no psychiatrist/psychologist, but I suspect that the depressive/manic continuum is, in fact pathological.
I think even "normal" ride the "bipolar wave", albeit to a much lower magnitude than the classic bipolar.
I think the bipolar brain has lost, or dampened the natural physiological control of mood, thus allowing for these wide swings. This loss or dampening may be the result of altered brain development, potentially as a result of child abuse, fetal development, etc...
The end result is, instead of "having a good day", the progression to hypomania or full blown mania results. Conversely, instead of feeling down, mood decends into depression.
What that regulatory mechanism in the brain may be, I have no idea. It could even be structural (as opposed to biochemical) for all I know.
Animals do display the bipolar spectrum themselves, although we typically do not identify it as a mental illness, but rather as the "nature" of the animal. Or we describe them as "spooky", unpredictable or sensitive.
In my experience with animals, they definately have moods and mood swings. We've even administered amitriptyline (succesfully) in severe cases of depression/agression (which very very closely mimics the behaviour of humans). They even develop OCD.
As a scientist, I also work with a lot of really talented, creative, smart people who've done a lot to advance their prospective fields. A few of those are what I would describe as "touched". However, the vast majority of the ones that do the best work are simply persistent, willing to tolerate failure and work really really hard.
Undoubtedly there is something in our minds that allows connections between things to be made that others may miss. However, one must also have some sort of stability to carry that connection through to realization.
So as far as purpose of hypo-/mania... I don't think there is one, it just exists.
Seldom
ps llurps, I'm really glad though that you are feeling better and have found some peace.
Posted by SLS on December 17, 2008, at 10:14:09
In reply to what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 7:46:12
> There's an awful lot of talk about how depression and such relates to early psychological (autobiographical)history. But I wonder why mania (or hypomania) is typically thought of as an abnormal *brain* function.
Great thinking. Great questions.
It doesn't matter how these biological illnesses are triggered. Once they are triggered, they represent abnormal brain function. Both MDD and BP can become self-sustaining after they are triggered. Things are just not working the way they are supposed to. I don't think mania is the way the brain tries to compensate for depression. As a clue to this relationship, once can cite the pattern of mood states that occur in a rapid-cycling bipolar patient. Mania does not follow depression. Instead, depression follows mania.
normal -> mania -> depression -> normal
There is such a thing as a bipolar temperament. Prior to the first episode of bipolar disorder, there are several psychological character traits that are associated with the subsequent induction of illness. Four bipolar temperament qualities (i.e. extroversion-introversion, practical-imaginative, thinking-feeling and organized-flexible styles) are used as a measurement of prosyndromal bipolar disorder. Cyclothymia is sometimes included here, but it is now considered well within the boundaries as an expression of active bipolar disorder.
There are many more points of interest here, but it would be difficult to address them in a series of posts. Monozygotic (identical) twin studies provide evidence that it is not inevitable that bipolar disorder emerges. I believe that, among other things, differences in psychosocial stress can account for this.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2008, at 10:47:17
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by SLS on December 17, 2008, at 10:14:09
Seems spring and fall seem to trigger manic episodes in some not all my Father-in-law was one of the seasonal ones. But he acquired an empire when in the "normal phase" when manic he was very hurtful to others in family and friends. He himself became psychotic. Now that's just what he did. He broke up both his son's marriages. And accuses his lovely wife of infidelity. But when he came down he sat and stared for weeks on end. And used to ride all day and night on a bike no need for sleep. Remember him so well. That's as I said just my experience with close family member at the time. Not scientific observations. Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on December 17, 2008, at 11:52:32
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by SLS on December 17, 2008, at 10:14:09
"Four bipolar temperament qualities (i.e. extroversion-introversion, practical-imaginative, thinking-feeling and organized-flexible styles) are used as a measurement of prosyndromal bipolar disorder."
Scott, if you have a chance, could you say more about these measures? I found this really interesting. Do the "pre-bipolars" exhibit more introversion than extroversion, or vice versa, or is the measure that they cycle between two? And what are "organized/flexible styles?"
Thanks!
Posted by raisinb on December 17, 2008, at 12:01:37
In reply to what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 7:46:12
I think it's an interesting question--all I have is speculation, but I wonder if feelings of worthlessness (depression) and feelings of omnipotence (mania) serve similar psychological buffering purposes in the form of defending against uncertainty and ambivalence.
In a way, when one is psychologically, chemically, or emotionally vulnerable, it's easier to believe that everything's wonderful, or everything's crap, vs. having the fortitude--whether it is chemical or otherwise--to confront the minute, complex, ambivalent reality that most of us live in.
Posted by SLS on December 17, 2008, at 12:12:07
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania? » SLS, posted by raisinb on December 17, 2008, at 11:52:32
> "Four bipolar temperament qualities (i.e. extroversion-introversion, practical-imaginative, thinking-feeling and organized-flexible styles) are used as a measurement of prosyndromal bipolar disorder."
>
> Scott, if you have a chance, could you say more about these measures? I found this really interesting. Do the "pre-bipolars" exhibit more introversion than extroversion, or vice versa, or is the measure that they cycle between two? And what are "organized/flexible styles?"
----------You have the general idea. I could not find many explanations of this temperament spectrum when used as a measurement device. Actually, the concept of depressive versus manic temperament was first offered by Emil Kraeplin.
Check this one out:
http://www.caspsurveys.org/NEW/pdfs/JRNLv_125.pdf
- Scott
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 17, 2008, at 14:10:35
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by Partlycloudy on December 17, 2008, at 8:14:17
> Maybe it serves as a balance to a severe depressive episode - the inevitable swing in the opposite direction. Something like the law of physics going on in our brains.
>
> And maybe it serves as the true source of man's supposed superiority over lesser beings on the planet. Do other animals ever exhibit behaviors consistent with hypo-/mania? Where else do the really great ideas of the world come from except from those who are at least slightly "touched"?
>
> pc
I would like to withdraw my post on the basis on stupidity and having had no education on the subject.
Thanks!
Posted by JadeKelly on December 17, 2008, at 15:42:12
In reply to what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 7:46:12
> There's an awful lot of talk about how depression and such relates to early psychological (autobiographical)history. But I wonder why mania (or hypomania) is typically thought of as an abnormal *brain* function. What is the psychological purpose of the other pole of the bipolar spectrum. What function does it serve?
>
> Anyone got any ideas? maybe some interesting citations or such. I know about Melanie Klein's "the manic defense" but aside from this 65 year old psychoanalytic theory, I'd be interested in hearing more contemporary thoughts.
>
> -LlHi L,
A psychiatrist once described to me a manic episode as "an emotional siezure", which is exactly what it looks like to me. Interestingly, there is correlation between epilepsy and bipolar I. A neurologist described to me an epileptic siezure as a kind of mis-fire in the brain. From my experience they both have some genetic &/or biological abnormality that makes a person susceptible. As Scott said, the trigger is irrelevant to that suseptability, however, triggers can be supressed/controlled in many cases, completely. I have also seen changes as shown on Scott's spectrum. However, I believe they can take place for any number of reasons. For example, a grown man, who was a very successful, practical, "type A" person, may subsequently grow emotionally or change simply as a result of the experience.
As for triggers, an Epileptic person may experience his/her first manic episode following a grand mal siezure. Here, the trigger is of significant importance in many areas.
As for the other "pole" in Bi-polar, what I've seen is normal/manic/depression. My theory is that the manic episode IS traumatic for the bi-polar person, whether that be biological or situational, I think it could be both, however, again, I believe suseptability mixed in is almost a guarantee of a subsequent depression.
One last thing, again in my experience, there is no to little control when a person will have a manic episode unless controlled by medication. The only control I'm aware of is if a person wants to be manic because the experience is euphoric, its possible I would assume to induce it. I think the amount of control a person has during the manic state varies, but full control is never there, IMHO.
~Jade
Posted by SLS on December 17, 2008, at 16:30:55
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania? WITHDRAW! » Partlycloudy, posted by Partlycloudy on December 17, 2008, at 14:10:35
> I would like to withdraw my post on the basis on stupidity and having had no education on the subject.
Be quiet!
There is everything to gain by contributing to the "think-tank" to further the cause.
Thank YOU!
You silly thing, you.
- Scott
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 17, 2008, at 16:37:14
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania? WITHDRAW! » Partlycloudy, posted by SLS on December 17, 2008, at 16:30:55
I lub yu
Posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 17:42:40
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by seldomseen on December 17, 2008, at 9:42:06
>
> ps llurps, I'm really glad though that you are feeling better and have found some peace.Seldom, thank you so much for that. It took me a long time to hear the Dx, Accept the Dx, and pay attn to the Dx. Maybe I'm at peace with it. or maybe I'm just nutso, but I'm feeling better lately. :)
-L
Posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 17:49:25
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania? » SLS, posted by raisinb on December 17, 2008, at 11:52:32
> "Four bipolar temperament qualities (i.e. extroversion-introversion, practical-imaginative, thinking-feeling and organized-flexible styles) are used as a measurement of prosyndromal bipolar disorder."
>
> Scott, if you have a chance, could you say more about these measures? I found this really interesting. Do the "pre-bipolars" exhibit more introversion than extroversion, or vice versa, or is the measure that they cycle between two? And what are "organized/flexible styles?"
>
> Thanks!Hi there,
I noticed that these factors share some surface similarities to Jung's personality typology as it inspired the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, a widely used (and mostly useless) personality test used in the business world.-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 17:55:22
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania? WITHDRAW!, posted by Partlycloudy on December 17, 2008, at 16:37:14
> I lub yu
Whoa!!!
SLS-- you better watch out! Partly Cloudy is MINE, and here you go, causing her to lose sight of ME! Not fair, at all.
Recently, I might have been overconfident, that PC would be my true blue sky forever; however, these days I'm more realistic, and know that I must fight to defend my fascination with cloudy
-Ll
p.s. PC, don't you DARE! withdraw! your post! you are so NOT ignorant. I'm not just telling you that to make you lub me. Although, I would welcome any amour you can offer my cavernous black heart.
Posted by seldomseen on December 17, 2008, at 19:30:59
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania? » seldomseen, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 17:42:40
personally, I think nutso is a good place to be. As long as it is a feeling better nutso.
Hell, I'm as nutso as they come.
Seldom.
Posted by Optimist on December 20, 2008, at 10:23:49
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania? WITHDRAW!, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 17, 2008, at 17:55:22
From an evolutionary point of view depression can be thought of as a protective mechanism to prevent risk, ensure safety, and save resources.
Depression can also trigger introspection, to help problem solving when things go badly. The period of problem solving may ultimately prevent another bad episode from reoccuring.
Many animals experience depression during the winter months aka hibernation. During periods of famine and extreme danger animals also tend to reduce movement(lethargic), and be more wary of their surroundings(anxiety), etc...
OTOH... hypomania has many adaptive advantages as well. Gathering more resources by being more active, motivated, and exploring your environment. Being more sexual which enables reproduction. Increased extraversion for leading people being the alpha male/female which may grant more sexual opportunities.
Many animals display hypomania in the spring which is where the word "spring fever" comes from. The fever/hypomania ensures the animals genes get in the next generation. A depressed person usually isn't feeling too frisky if you know what I mean. :)
The advantage of bipolarity in the animal kingdom allows for maximization of reproductive chances when "hypomanic" and subsequent saving of resources when "depressed".
Overall the selective advantages of being a bipolar animal can ensure greater fitness than a "stable" animal.
In todays modern society many great artists, scientists, politicians and business people are bipolar. Without their periods of hypomania they most likely would have never been as successful than if they were "stable".
Posted by Tony P on December 22, 2008, at 3:29:10
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by Optimist on December 20, 2008, at 10:23:49
I'm no expert on evolution, so I won't comment ont the "purpose" issue, but since I have developed a relatively mild BP/cyclothymic spectrum I have been much more productive artistically -- I had essentially given up writing music and had a very low self-image. In the past year I have had several new pieces of music and arrangements performed publicly, written quite a few more, and had tremendous satisfaction from revising some of my early juvenalia.
The most recent was an arrangement of a medley from "A Charlie Brown Christmas" for choir, jazz piano & brass quintet (!!) I can't post the live performance due to union musician regs., but if anyone is interested, a computer-synthesized version is currently playing on my website on MySpace.com (nickname Tonitru):
http://myspace.com/httpwwwmyspacecomtonitruSometimes I think that what *I* think is hypomania is just what "normal" people experience as feeling good with high energy -- it just seems strange to me by contrast with being depressed, "been down so long it seems like up to me". My friends comment on my good spirits and don't seem to think I'm wildly hyper -- I rely on them to tell me if if I cross over into really crazy, out-of-touch-with reality behaviour.
Tony
Posted by Phillipa on December 22, 2008, at 19:44:01
In reply to Re: what's the purpose of hypo-/ mania?, posted by Tony P on December 22, 2008, at 3:29:10
Tony is that you in the pic? I feel the same also as once thought was hypomanic on 250mg of luvox. Didn't last more than two weeks though. Amazing the talent on babble. Love Phillipa
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