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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 27, 2008, at 17:14:33
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by SLS on May 27, 2008, at 16:51:54
> > Sometimes when i'm feeling low, a good strong cup of Java helps me to feel less depressed. Anyone else get this affect from Caffeine? Maybe this is why Coffee is so popular in Seattle, Wa., where it rains nearly all the time. I live about 230 miles east of Seattle.
>
>
> How do you define antidepressant?
>
> Is cocaine an antidepressant?
>
> Coffee, for me, is a cognitive, psychic energy, and mood enhancer. However, this is only an acute reaction and often yields tolerance to every day use. Perhaps more importantly, to me, these enhancements really do not feel like an emergence from depression, as much as they feel like a weak palliative measure to provide more psychic energy.
>
> I had used coffee for years to help with psychic energy, which often provides more physical energy as well. I'm glad we have caffeine. It can be a useful tool.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> Yeah, i guess antidepressant could include a lot of substances that elevate mood such as alcohol (Which is really a depressant) cocaine, marijuana,(also a depressant) etc. Maybe the caffeine would be better termed as a psychic stimulant as i think you put it.-The Egg Man
Posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 27, 2008, at 17:18:30
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by bulldog2 on May 27, 2008, at 17:11:00
> > Sometimes when i'm feeling low, a good strong cup of Java helps me to feel less depressed. Anyone else get this affect from Caffeine? Maybe this is why Coffee is so popular in Seattle, Wa., where it rains nearly all the time. I live about 230 miles east of Seattle.
> >
> > -W
>
> I can tolerate one cup a day without tolerance building up. Anything more than one cup a day and I become anxious. Yes one cup pulls me out of a bleak mood and allows me to get going. So there is an ad effect though not a very complete one.It doesn't really address anhedonia or make me more sociable.It does make me a little more socialable. Too much makes me anxious too.
-W
Posted by linkadge on May 27, 2008, at 19:56:35
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » bulldog2, posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 27, 2008, at 17:18:30
Yes, I too get an AD effect from coffee for which I do not build tollerance. There is an association between coffee (caffiene) intake and reduced risk of parkinsons disease. This association has been repeated a number of times. Regular coffee consumption is also associated with a lower risk of suicide in a number of studies (infact some of the studies which set out to disprove this association ended up confirming it)
Caffiene itself posesses antidepressant properties in the forced swim test in mice. Some researchers have also noted that it can boost the response rate to other antidepressants. Although it may not be officially classified as an antidepressant, researchers are looking into other potential adenosine antagonists for the treatment of depression. There are other targets of caffiene such as activation of CREB.
A number of studies show that there is generally no tollerance to the caffiene induced release of prefrontal dopamine even after long term use. For individuals with low metabolic activity here, this may be benificial.
Also, coffee itself containes the beta carboline substances wich are fairly potent reversabe inhibitors of human monoamine oxidase. The average coffee drinker would see a daytime reduction in MAO A/B of about 50%. The beta carbolines are also 5-ht2b antagonists which enhances dopamine release in certain brain regions.
Another (potential) target would be the potent antioxidant capacity of coffee which may confer neuroprotection. The polyphenols may also be neuromodulatory.
Don't necessarily doubt your senses. Just because something doesn't have the FDA stamp of approval doesn't mean it can't help.
Comparing coffee to cocaine is like comparing apples to oranges. Coffee is generally not much of a euphoriant. Animals do not self inject caffiene like they do cocaine.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on May 27, 2008, at 20:27:29
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by linkadge on May 27, 2008, at 19:56:35
Get panic attacks on coffee use to be able to drink only iced coffee with milk. Now stick to tea and green tea. Phillipa
Posted by Molybdenum on May 28, 2008, at 4:29:07
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by linkadge on May 27, 2008, at 19:56:35
Well.....I actually got to know some of those mice quite well. You know, the ones who were subjected to the "forced swim test".
What really happened according to Spike [one of the younger mice] was "...we were all just sitting around talking after the espresso shots. Then Larry [not his real name] started twitching & fell in the water. His partner for the entire week [Honey - her real name], then jumped in after him. We all thought it was a great idea & so we all jumped in and started splashing around. Larry was always jerking & doing stuff like that. We used to call him 'Modafinil Man' on account of another job we did. We didn't think anything was wrong and Honey never stopped talking the whole time either."
According to my source, up until then none of the mice were actually depressed. Only after they realised that Larry couldn't swim, and subsequently sank to the bottom of the tank, did any of them report feelings of sadness or melancholia.
Researchers felt the experiment was invalid then, especially after half the mice claimed to be suffering from PTSD - on account of Larry (& then Honey). Apparently Honey was "beside herself" and impossible to console and in the midst of such grief, climbed up the side of the espresso machine & into the coffee holder. She'd pushed the "double latte" button before anyone could stop her. She screamed with pain as the steam came down "I'm coming Larry, I'm coming for you baby...!".
Posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 7:21:54
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » linkadge, posted by Molybdenum on May 28, 2008, at 4:29:07
Well the FST has its pros and cons. It has some predictive validity for effective AD's human mood disorders.
Although the mice aren't necessarily 'depressed', researchers note that stress induces many of the same biochemical abnormalities that are evident in human mood disorders.
Yes coffee as an antidepressant is controversial (as is the antidepressant effect any other compound which cannot be patented). A number of studies however suggest that it may share some of the same biochemical effects as other antidepressant compounds. I'd link to some abstracts but they are with a page that is unfortunately banned on psychobabble for some strange reason.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on May 28, 2008, at 13:00:22
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by linkadge on May 27, 2008, at 19:56:35
> There is an association between coffee (caffiene) intake and reduced risk of parkinsons disease. This association has been repeated a number of times.
>Adenosine A2A-receptor antagonism appears to be beneficial in Parkinson's disease, and there have been trials of selective A2A-antagonists.
>
>
> A number of studies show that there is generally no tollerance to the caffiene induced release of prefrontal dopamine even after long term use. For individuals with low metabolic activity here, this may be benificial.
>On the contrary, my impression from what I've read on caffeine is that tolerance to its dopaminergic effects develop rapidly, whereas its cholinergic enhancement is stable over time.
>
> Another (potential) target would be the potent antioxidant capacity of coffee which may confer neuroprotection. The polyphenols may also be neuromodulatory.
>However, tea - especially the green type - is likely to have greater antioxidant potential.
>
> Comparing coffee to cocaine is like comparing apples to oranges. Coffee is generally not much of a euphoriant. Animals do not self inject caffiene like they do cocaine.
>That is because caffeine is a poor stimulant of mesolimbic dopamine.
My personal experience is that caffeine is of little or no use - especially not on its own. A long time ago, back when caffeine was the only stimulant available to me, I used - or even abused - it a lot. The main results of my excessive consumption was sleep attacks and an increased frequency of headaches. It never made me anxious, although perhaps a little bit nervous at times. I also never found it to significantly enhance wakefulness or focus, although in the heyday of my caffeine use, I was convinced that it must be helping at least a little.
These days, I use moderate amounts - always less than a dozen cups of tea a day - and don't experience sleep attacks or headaches. I still don't notice any clear benefits, but I have the impression that it subtly enhances my memory, cognition and activity level. A prerequisite for my successful use of caffeine is to take it in conjunction with more potent dopaminergic agents.
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 15:11:45
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by undopaminergic on May 28, 2008, at 13:00:22
If caffeine were a true antidepressant, I think we would see more people using it as such. It would certainly be in the media if it were. It would not remain the best kept secret in psychiatry - nor the rest of the world. I have strategically used coffee and caffeine pills as a psychic energy booster and a mood elevator since the early 1980s. It did more for me consistently than the failed antidepressants I was exposed to. It does for depressed people as it does for healthy people. No more. Perhaps less.
- Scott
Posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 15:46:34
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 15:11:45
> If caffeine were a true antidepressant, I think we would see more people using it as such. It would certainly be in the media if it were. It would not remain the best kept secret in psychiatry - nor the rest of the world. I have strategically used coffee and caffeine pills as a psychic energy booster and a mood elevator since the early 1980s. It did more for me consistently than the failed antidepressants I was exposed to. It does for depressed people as it does for healthy people. No more. Perhaps less.
>
>
> - ScottI disagree. When i worked in retail sales many years ago i used to drink huge amounts of strong black coffee and it would most definitely elevate my mood. As with all drugs, everyone is different.
-W
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 15:54:07
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » SLS, posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 15:46:34
> > If caffeine were a true antidepressant, I think we would see more people using it as such. It would certainly be in the media if it were. It would not remain the best kept secret in psychiatry - nor the rest of the world. I have strategically used coffee and caffeine pills as a psychic energy booster and a mood elevator since the early 1980s. It did more for me consistently than the failed antidepressants I was exposed to. It does for depressed people as it does for healthy people. No more. Perhaps less.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I disagree. When i worked in retail sales many years ago i used to drink huge amounts of strong black coffee and it would most definitely elevate my mood. As with all drugs, everyone is different.
>
> -W
Are you depressed right now? If not, when was the last time you were depressed?
- Scott
Posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 16:13:31
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » IAMtheWalrus, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 15:54:07
> > > If caffeine were a true antidepressant, I think we would see more people using it as such. It would certainly be in the media if it were. It would not remain the best kept secret in psychiatry - nor the rest of the world. I have strategically used coffee and caffeine pills as a psychic energy booster and a mood elevator since the early 1980s. It did more for me consistently than the failed antidepressants I was exposed to. It does for depressed people as it does for healthy people. No more. Perhaps less.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > I disagree. When i worked in retail sales many years ago i used to drink huge amounts of strong black coffee and it would most definitely elevate my mood. As with all drugs, everyone is different.
> >
> > -W
>
>
> Are you depressed right now? If not, when was the last time you were depressed?
>
>
> - Scott
>
> Not right now, Thank God! I was depressed in March 2009...a combo of Prozac, Lithium, and geodon is helping me.
-W
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 16:22:19
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 16:13:31
> > > > If caffeine were a true antidepressant, I think we would see more people using it as such. It would certainly be in the media if it were. It would not remain the best kept secret in psychiatry - nor the rest of the world. I have strategically used coffee and caffeine pills as a psychic energy booster and a mood elevator since the early 1980s. It did more for me consistently than the failed antidepressants I was exposed to. It does for depressed people as it does for healthy people. No more. Perhaps less.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Scott
> > >
> > > I disagree. When i worked in retail sales many years ago i used to drink huge amounts of strong black coffee and it would most definitely elevate my mood. As with all drugs, everyone is different.
> > >
> > > -W
> >
> >
> > Are you depressed right now? If not, when was the last time you were depressed?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> > Not right now, Thank God! I was depressed in March 2009...a combo of Prozac, Lithium, and geodon is helping me.I'm sure your treatment is nothing less of a miracle that it should provide you with a remission. I am happy for you - really. However,
your answer begs the question why you are not using caffeine as monotherapy.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 16:28:28
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 16:22:19
> I was depressed in March 2009...a combo of Prozac, Lithium, and geodon is helping me.
By the way, how much lithium are you taking?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 17:15:35
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 16:22:19
> > > > > If caffeine were a true antidepressant, I think we would see more people using it as such. It would certainly be in the media if it were. It would not remain the best kept secret in psychiatry - nor the rest of the world. I have strategically used coffee and caffeine pills as a psychic energy booster and a mood elevator since the early 1980s. It did more for me consistently than the failed antidepressants I was exposed to. It does for depressed people as it does for healthy people. No more. Perhaps less.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - Scott
> > > >
> > > > I disagree. When i worked in retail sales many years ago i used to drink huge amounts of strong black coffee and it would most definitely elevate my mood. As with all drugs, everyone is different.
> > > >
> > > > -W
> > >
> > >
> > > Are you depressed right now? If not, when was the last time you were depressed?
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> > >
> > > Not right now, Thank God! I was depressed in March 2009...a combo of Prozac, Lithium, and geodon is helping me.
>
> I'm sure your treatment is nothing less of a miracle that it should provide you with a remission. I am happy for you - really. However,
> your answer begs the question why you are not using caffeine as monotherapy.
>
>
> - Scott
>Ha..i knew you were going to ask that. I said it elevated my mood many years ago, after i developed tolerance to Caffeine, the affect abated. I never said i thought it would make a good long term AD. I said it can elevate your (my) mood. That being said, i don't believe in stimulants as monotherapy for 'most' people with clinical depression.
-W
Posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 17:18:07
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » SLS, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 16:28:28
> > I was depressed in March 2009...a combo of Prozac, Lithium, and geodon is helping me.
>
> By the way, how much lithium are you taking?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott300mgs of Lithium. I'm not bipolar, it's being used as an augmentation agent.
-W
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 17:34:02
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » SLS, posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 17:18:07
> > > I was depressed in March 2009...a combo of Prozac, Lithium, and geodon is helping me.
This is a pretty heady choice of drugs. Who chose the Geodon? Good call.
I was initially unimpressed with Geodon as a drug. I didn't feel it was right for any indication. In particular, I didn't like hearing the many accounts of its provoking psychosis and other activating side effects. I have since seen Geodon produce robust antidepressant responses, especially when added to an SSRI. A friend of mine derived substantial benefit when Geodon was added to Wellbutrin + Lexapro.
- Scott
Posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 17:52:40
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 17:34:02
> > > > I was depressed in March 2009...a combo of Prozac, Lithium, and geodon is helping me.
>
> This is a pretty heady choice of drugs. Who chose the Geodon? Good call.
>
> I was initially unimpressed with Geodon as a drug. I didn't feel it was right for any indication. In particular, I didn't like hearing the many accounts of its provoking psychosis and other activating side effects. I have since seen Geodon produce robust antidepressant responses, especially when added to an SSRI. A friend of mine derived substantial benefit when Geodon was added to Wellbutrin + Lexapro.
>
>
> - Scott
>
> My Psychiatrist thought of it..just wish it would have been sooner as last winter was hell for me. Better late than never. :)-W
Posted by Phillipa on May 28, 2008, at 19:59:39
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » SLS, posted by IAMtheWalrus on May 28, 2008, at 17:52:40
Ummmm isn't the year now 2008? It went by all of you. That is funny to me. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:21:34
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by undopaminergic on May 28, 2008, at 13:00:22
>That is because caffeine is a poor stimulant of
>mesolimbic dopamine.True, but the beta carbolines may have some effect there. Regardless, a drug doesn't need to directly enhance mesolimbic dopamine to be an effective AD.
>but I have the impression that it subtly >enhances my memory, cognition and activity >level.
Caffiene inhances acetylcholine levels in the hippocampus.
>A prerequisite for my successful use of caffeine >is to take it in conjunction with more potent >dopaminergic agents.
Well, whatever does it for you.
I personally don't get over fixated on the suposed effects of dopaminergics. Dopamine is not the magic pleasure chemical.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:23:55
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 15:11:45
>If caffeine were a true antidepressant, I think >we would see more people using it as such.
You don't get out much (?)
>It would certainly be in the media if it were. >It would not remain the best kept secret in >psychiatry - nor the rest of the world.
Again, not necessarily.
>It does for depressed people as it does for >healthy people. No more. Perhaps less.
Again, a bit of a generalization.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:41:33
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by SLS on May 28, 2008, at 16:22:19
>However, your answer begs the question why you >are not using caffeine as monotherapy.
Just because caffine monotherapy does is insufficant for certain mood disorders does not mean that it cannot posess a notable AD effect in some individuals.
Like was mentioned previously, coffee drinkers have consistantly lower rates of depression, parkinson's disease, and alzheimers which are often highly comorbid with depression.
It is quite possible that the neuroprotective effect conferred by caffine or other consituents of coffee in these neurological disorders has some sort of protective effect against the development of depression.
I'm sure that we are well aware by now (unfortunately) that many mood disorder folks are not just walking around with low serotonin. Chronically depressed people have brain structure abnormalities, everything from structural atrophy to cellular pathologies. These features likely reduce the effectiveness of antidepressants and make the condition chronic and more refractive.
Caffiene for instance can protect dopaminergic cells from a variety of neurotoxins. If coffee drinkers can preserve their dopaminergic system into old age, this may have a favorable impact on mood disorders, especially on those whose depression is complicated by a parkinsonian interlace.
And again, seeing as we know so little about the true neurobiological origins of mood disorders, I would be hesitate to say what is and is not an antidepressant for any one individual.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:44:41
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant? » IAMtheWalrus, posted by Phillipa on May 28, 2008, at 19:59:39
I did just fine for 3/4 of a year on dark organic coffee twice per day with magnesium/tarine at bedtime.
And again, there is more to coffee than just caffiene. Ie coffee drinkers have a %50 reduction in MAO-A and MAO-B. Its not clear what kind of impact this may have on certain affective disorders.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:49:18
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:44:41
I even came across a study a while ago about how coffee drinking schizophrenics had less typical antipsychotic induced brain atrophy / abnormalities.
It suggested the caffiene attenuated some of the brain pathologies associated with long term typical AP useage.
Linkadge
Posted by Molybdenum on May 28, 2008, at 22:26:21
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:49:18
Caffeine certainly used to give me a little extra boost to get through the day, just like it does for millions of others. I think it's fair to have some distinction between ADs and stimulants though.
From the Wiki god: "An antidepressant is a psychiatric medication or other substance...used for alleviating depression or dysthymia... Most antidepressants have a delayed onset of action and are usually taken over the course of weeks, months, or years. They are generally considered distinct from stimulants, and drugs used for an immediate euphoric effect only are not generally considered antidepressants."
That definition sounds fair, don't you think?
I like the distinction between ADs & stims on the grounds of the sustainability of the effect. ADs typically work for years - some people never get poop-out. The stims are all "instant effect" machines in my experience. By design, they MUST stop working after 12 hrs or so otherwise they interfere with sleep.
Modafinil helps my mood a little and I think that feeling "a little brighter" every day on account of this might be a helpful addition to the traditional ADs in my "treatment spectrum". But I'd still class it as a stim, not an AD in itself, if for no other reason than to make discussions on this forum clear. Imagine the mess that would ensue if we used the term AD to refer both groups. Get my point?
I don't think we need to consider whether each group of drugs actually produces long term chemical or physiological brain changes to help us differentiate between the two groups. There's enough points of distinction in the Wiki definition to leave this aspect alone.
So I agree with your points about caffeine having a genuine "depression alleviating" effect, but I think we should not call it an AD as such. I say leave it as a "stimulant".
Thanks for reading.... ;)
- M.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 28, 2008, at 23:02:13
In reply to Re: C*A*F*F*E*I*N*E..as an antidepressant?, posted by linkadge on May 28, 2008, at 21:21:34
> >That is because caffeine is a poor stimulant of
> >mesolimbic dopamine.
>
> True, but the beta carbolines may have some effect there. Regardless, a drug doesn't need to directly enhance mesolimbic dopamine to be an effective AD.
>My comment addressed the issues of why caffeine is "not much of a euphoriant" and why "Animals do not self inject caffiene like they do cocaine". No-one has claimed that an antidepressant needs to enhance mesolimbic dopamine. Furthermore, you may wish to make up your mind as to whether we're discussing caffeine or beta-carbolines, as they are not equivalent.
> I personally don't get over fixated on the suposed effects of dopaminergics. Dopamine is not the magic pleasure chemical.
>You are wise not to get fixated on supposed effects, but I wonder how magic pleasure chemicals are relevant to the topic at hand.
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