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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 116. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 13:40:46
Strange a few people I know feel sooo much better since they weaned off their ad's and those that were on benzos have just been able to cut back a lot? They were on ad's for years. Any idea what's going on? Even when I was only on 25mg of luvox needed only l5mg of valium and felt so much better? Don't get it. Any thoughts? And they had been on various ad's. Phillipa ps oh their docs took them off for a baseline. Which was better without the meds.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 14, 2008, at 16:00:35
In reply to Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 13:40:46
> Strange a few people I know feel sooo much better since they weaned off their ad's and those that were on benzos have just been able to cut back a lot? They were on ad's for years. Any idea what's going on? Even when I was only on 25mg of luvox needed only l5mg of valium and felt so much better? Don't get it. Any thoughts? And they had been on various ad's. Phillipa ps oh their docs took them off for a baseline. Which was better without the meds.
This is a board where people come for information on meds for depression. This is not an attack so don't get bent out of shape. You don't seem to believe meds work for depression.That stance could be demoralizing to those on ads or those just starting them. Just something to think about. I just don't think it's a positive message on a depression forum for meds info or feedback.You are certainly entitled to your opinion but perhaps posting options in the alternative section would be a better place for that viewpoint.That's a good place to talk about other more natural options to fight depression.
Posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 19:13:15
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 14, 2008, at 16:00:35
But it's about anxiety too and lots of questions on them. Deplin was first thought of as alternative now we know its a prescription. Not trying to upset anyone merely posting an observation and real life experiences of others. How can that be demoralizing? Or negative. Simply a different view. Also is this an only depression board thought it was meds. Am I confused? Could be if so apologies due. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 22:28:40
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 14, 2008, at 16:00:35
May I add that there are situational depressions that only require short term antidepressants. The opinion is of my experiences as well. Does being on an antidpressant mean for life. Can anyone back up a scientific study stating once on antidepressant on one for life? Lots of people are and may be. I'm also on a low dose antidepressant. Many medical conditions also result in depression as thyroid disease, MS, Lupus, chronic pain, diagnosis of cancer. Circumstances in my opinion only are all varied. Google search in order. Phillipa
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on April 14, 2008, at 22:52:27
In reply to Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 13:40:46
> Strange a few people I know feel sooo much better since they weaned off their ad's and those that were on benzos have just been able to cut back a lot? They were on ad's for years. Any idea what's going on? Even when I was only on 25mg of luvox needed only l5mg of valium and felt so much better? Don't get it. Any thoughts? And they had been on various ad's. Phillipa ps oh their docs took them off for a baseline. Which was better without the meds.
-----
Phewwits been a rusty few days since Ive posted. Ill explain more over on social. But, Phillipa, somebody on here said something once that I thought was really good. Taking meds has side-effects and so does living without them. (In particular, of course, if you have a fairly severe mental illness. Which I think most of us do, despite the scientologist types who may disagree and say there is no such thing as mental illness)
Ive had times, very few and rare, and far between, off meds, when yes, you feel better.
But, without meds, the symptoms are amplified 1,000,000,000 xxxxx over. It just sounds like you, Phillipa, may not be getting the best treatment. Lets have a look at how weird my med regiment is:60 mg Prozac
100 mg Zoloft----These two (P + Z) work excellent for mealone they dont do much.
100 mg Seroquel
1 mg Risperdal
4 mg clonazepam
4-12 mg PRN of Periactin for if I ever have problems with serotonin syndrome, and to counter-act the sexual and sleep problems of SSRIs
50 mg imipramine
2.5 grams topical testosterone gel per day (average mans testosterone level is 8, mine was just tested and came out at 4.!!)Yeah, it seems like a lot, but everything was carefully added, and I am okay (knock on wood..heh..). I dont have lightning zaps of anxiety, and I am not so pre-occupied with death. (Losslossloss)
I really think the key for many with Tx resistant depression is finding an antipsychotic that DOESNT mess with metabolism and blood sugar. (ala Zyprexa.) That is why I think many people dont do well down the road on Zyprexa, because their blood sugar is going through the roof! There is so much sugar in your blood you feel sick. Also, Cymbalta has been implicated in increasing blood sugar. (as well as some TCAs)
So, I honestly say, take a chance, try some really weird combo. Whatever brings you relief! The thing is, once you get there, we cant try to push for more to become superhuman, we just have to enjoy the calm and the better regulated moods.
Anyhow.hope this helps some
Take care,
Jay
Posted by antiserial on April 15, 2008, at 0:27:49
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 14, 2008, at 16:00:35
Posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 8:09:06
In reply to Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 13:40:46
> Strange a few people I know feel sooo much better since they weaned off their ad's and those that were on benzos have just been able to cut back a lot? They were on ad's for years. Any idea what's going on? Even when I was only on 25mg of luvox needed only l5mg of valium and felt so much better? Don't get it. Any thoughts? And they had been on various ad's. Phillipa ps oh their docs took them off for a baseline. Which was better without the meds.
I know that right now you're on your "ad meds don't work" opinion on ads. Scott posted a few weeks ago a piece on deductive reasoning. Posting the anecdoctal experiences of a few people cannot lead to any valid conclusion. For instance maybe they didn't work for you. Maybe they didn't work for your neighbor. If your neighbor was depressed maybe she got better on them and got off and felt better. Maybe they really worked for her.
Phillipe valid judgements require double blind tests with hundreds of people taking place.
Meds may not work for everyone. They also work for many. They may also do their job and some may be able to come off.
You've basically posted a question that has no real answer.We can't draw any real conclusions from a few who felt better off of meds.The tone of the thread is that maybe we're better off without our ads. I've seen you on other threads saying meds don't work.As I've said before someone on ads and possibly suicidal needs to be on their meds.People who are at the end of their string and their meds are holding them together could be demoralized or maybe stop their meds when reading threads how meds don't work keep popping up.
I thought the intent of this board was an exchange of info about meds..People's experiences good and bad about meds so as to educate people as to what direction they might take in their search for remission.
Random anecdotal experiences just cannot lead to any really valid conclusions. Posting that a few people feel soooo much better off of meds could lead some to a faulty conclusion.
Posted by Glydin on April 15, 2008, at 9:46:04
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 8:09:06
I agree with you, bulldog2....
As for folks feeling better off meds, I believe that can happen. I also believe there are alot of factors in play with feeling better off and swearing off, specifically, head meds. My personal experience with some of my RL folks who have gone off meds is: IF the mental/emotional illness/struggle is chronic as opposed to an acute situation, a lack of treatment doesn't last for the long term. Most **I know** do consider meds a big adjunct in their treatment.
Personally, I know I will always require some form of treatment.
Posted by antiserial on April 15, 2008, at 10:00:57
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 8:09:06
SSRIs make people apathetic. This enables people to be indifferent towards depressive thoughts and angst. Emotional flatness might be a good thing for some people, but the fact is that some people are better off without this. Sexual side effects and weight gain aren't exactly mood-elevating, either.
The truth can be demoralizing, but there's no reason to give people false hopes.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 10:06:05
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs » bulldog2, posted by antiserial on April 15, 2008, at 10:00:57
> SSRIs make people apathetic. This enables people to be indifferent towards depressive thoughts and angst. Emotional flatness might be a good thing for some people, but the fact is that some people are better off without this. Sexual side effects and weight gain aren't exactly mood-elevating, either.
>
> The truth can be demoralizing, but there's no reason to give people false hopes.ssris aren't the only ads available. There are other options.
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2008, at 10:24:07
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 10:06:05
My point is merely a question and no I'm certainly not antimeds. I don't think I insinuated that. Just that some do get better as their condition was situational. Or a valid medical condition. I'd urge anyone to also have a complete physical to rule out other conditions. Sorry if some would be afraid of this thread. But not all are treatment restistant and they are extremely lucky. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by antiserial on April 15, 2008, at 11:36:02
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 10:06:05
Since SNRIs also are serotonin reuptake inhibitors, the same applies here. The noradrenaline reuptake inhibition is weak compared to the serotonin counterpart.
But, anyway, maybe people could try meds like Remeron or Wellbutrin.
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2008, at 12:05:31
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs » bulldog2, posted by antiserial on April 15, 2008, at 11:36:02
I only wish my doc had left me on the original first ad I was on that was l0mg of paxil as once he changed it didn't work again. I do envy those that are able to take a med get better and then either continue or stop. That happened with a family member .Short term prozac and now she's better than ever. Guess these folks are in the minority. Phillipa
Posted by Glydin on April 15, 2008, at 14:28:44
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2008, at 12:05:31
> Guess these folks are in the minority.
~~~ Maybe or maybe not.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 15, 2008, at 15:21:17
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs » bulldog2, posted by antiserial on April 15, 2008, at 10:00:57
> SSRIs make people apathetic.
I would be shocked to discover that such a strong causal relationship between SSRI use and feelings of apathy has been scientifically established in all SSRI users.
gg
Posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 15:45:35
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs » Phillipa, posted by Glydin on April 15, 2008, at 14:28:44
> > Guess these folks are in the minority.
>
> ~~~ Maybe or maybe not.From everything I've read if you're willing to go thru more than one class of ad (not just going from one ssri to another) (perhaps tca,maoi,anti-convulsant etc) you have a good chance of achieivng remission. But it takes perserverance and persistance in some cases. Many chuck an ad because of sides within several days so you can't say the ad didn't work. You didn't give it a chance.
Posted by Glydin on April 15, 2008, at 16:07:03
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 15, 2008, at 15:45:35
My hat is always off to folks who go thru the getting thru over and over... it's rough and not for the faint of heart or soul. I highly praise the: "I'm not well .... yet" set.
My hope has always been this board can give support and respect to the seekers, the questioners and the FINDERS.
Praises be, I arrived here quite sick and have gotten to wellness. Maybe I AM lucky but I also feel as if the walk to get lucky was trial by fire.
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2008, at 20:16:27
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs » bulldog2, posted by Glydin on April 15, 2008, at 16:07:03
Hi all.
I know this is pretty silly, but if person number 1 doesn't respond to an AD, the worst we can say is that the drug might not work for anyone. The best we could say is that it might work for other people, but not person number 1. If person number 2 does respond to an AD, the worst we can say is that the drug works for at least one person. The best we can say is that 50% of people respond to medication.
I respond to medication. The worst I can say is that I am the only person in the world who responds to my treatment regime. The best I can say is that everyone has the potential to get well.
What got me well? Vigilance, persistence, hope, and patience. Observing which drugs I maintained a partial response to. Combining some of these drugs together and further augmenting them with still other drugs and tweaking dosages. Then, forget about drugs for awhile. Like maybe 3 weeks. Then assess and make adjustments as necessary. Now, wait.
It seems simple enough. In reality, it is hard as hell. It is extremely difficult to avoid despair and hopelessness.
There are magic pills.
This is most true for people with properly diagnosed affective and anxiety disorders. Once one obtains a good response to medication, then it is possible to better process the issues of everyday life - just like real people.
I'm feeling wonderful. The addition of Deplin 4 months ago made the difference. Deplin takes 2-4 months to work. Fortunately, I know that going in. So, I simply popped my "medical food" every day and didn't think much more about it. At some point, I said, "I'll be damned." I have been improving steadily. It seems to be sticking. I have a lot of detritus to clean up. Depression leaves devastation in its wake with wreckage everywhere. Well, if I do all of this additional work psychologically, doesn't that prove that there are no magic pills? No. The pills still work their magic so that one can just begin to process their outer and inner worlds. Many people have no need for remedial psychotherapy. People with unhealthy brains can have healthy minds. Give them the right pill, and they jump off the couch they had laid on motionless for years, ready and capable to begin living on the best terms their new-found awakening offers them. Some chronic depressives have been able to practice self-actualization despite their biological depression. The magic here is having a healthy brain once again facilitate a healthy mind.
Let's just say that for Scott, there are magic pills.
Severe depression begins - 17 yrs.
First diagnosed properly and treated - 22 yrs.
First remission (6 months) - 27 yrs.
Became completely unresponsive to medication - 30 yrs.
Became partially responsive to medication - 40 yrs.
Robust response (finally) - 48 yrs.60 psychotropic drugs (foreign or unmarketed).
Multiple permutations of drug combinations.
ECT.
Psychotherapy.
Food allergy rotation diet.
Other stuff.
A lot of crying.There is a lot of good advice and healthy perspective to be found along this thread.
Currently:
Nardil 90mg
nortriptyline 150mg
Lamictal 200mg
Abilify 20mg
Deplin 7.5mgGod has been very good to me.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 15, 2008, at 20:22:13
In reply to Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 13:40:46
> Strange a few people I know feel sooo much better since they weaned off their ad's
This is very often the result of a biological rebound caused by the abrupt dosage reduction of some drugs. It is temporary. I see lots of these people go back to their drugs without delay once the rebound disappears.There is also the reduction in the load of side-effects, both physical and mental, that can often be a relief once they dissipate.
- Scott
Posted by atmlady on April 15, 2008, at 20:44:50
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off, posted by SLS on April 15, 2008, at 20:16:27
SLS, beautifully said. I am actually tearing up reading your post, because it is so much like my own struggle. I don't think anyone here "wants" to be on meds of any sort. Because they all come with side effects, and yeah, if you're on the "wrong" med for you, then I suppose you WOULD feel better off when you stop it. I get angry sometimes that there isn't an easy answer for depression - something that works for practically everyone, like penicillan. Why do I have to do through this trial and error and .... well, you know. But I am convinced that all of our struggles and obstacles serve to make us stronger, smarter and in the end, better people - if we allow it. ANyway, that's my take. Not as eloquent as your wonderful post, which should be displayed somewhere for posterity for shizzle
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2008, at 21:24:56
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off, posted by SLS on April 15, 2008, at 20:16:27
Scott you are truly a remarkable person to me and always have been. Seriously though how did you manage to get a great pdoc mine have been so shoddy. So you think my next door neighbor since she was on lexapro for years with six mg of xanax and recently taken off effexor on a year with same xanax. And now down to 3mg of xanax will crash in a matter of time? I'm serious. You have done work with NIMH right? Love Phillipa ps between you and Ron and Henyro Deplin is definitely coming back on board. I have no fear of what I prefer to call a vitamin as was a health freak for many years. Thanks you .
Posted by alienatari on April 15, 2008, at 23:03:41
In reply to Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by Phillipa on April 14, 2008, at 13:40:46
It's been about 7 months or so since I stopped taking medication and I cannot convey how much better I feel off psychiatric meds. Not only was my cognitive functioning impaired significantly, I had reached the stage where all I did was sleep because I was so exhausted from the medication side effects. I didn't shower for a month, or shave, or cut my nails. It was disgusting! So I gradually stopped all of my medication. When I was finally off all my meds, including my AD, my depression started to lift. I could think again, I was no longer impotent, I have lost 27kg of weight (59 pounds) that I had gained from medication. Now, If I am having a bad day or have insomnia I will take a valium but It ends up causing more problems then its worth most of the time, for me anyway.
I think a lot of doctors seem to forget about the paradoxical reactions to medications that can occur. While I was put on respirodone for anxiety, I became psychotic. I was very paranoid. A few weeks after stopping respiridone my paranoia was totally gone.
I am not anti-med but it sure as hell feels great to be off them and I no longer have depression anyway so there is no point in being on them. My OCD is still there of course but I manage it with CBT now.
I am not saying everyone should stop taking their medication, as we are all different, but for me it was the right thing to do and I wish I had done it a lot sooner then I did.
Posted by alienatari on April 15, 2008, at 23:17:53
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off ADs, posted by bulldog2 on April 14, 2008, at 16:00:35
Wow, I actually just read the posts underneath the original post by phillipa. I think some of you should be ashamed of yourselves attacking her like that. How dare you!
So a board about psychiatric medication has to only be about the positives and not the negatives of psychotropic medication? That is ridiculous!
Phillipa is actually not anti-meds at all if you actually knew her and even if she was, why do so many people feel so threatened and have to justify their own medical treatment? Maybe deep down, you know in your heart that the medication your taking is doing nothing and your still miserable and suffering even though your taking fist fulls of drugs daily... Maybe a reality check is needed for some of you?If you want to take meds take them, if you don't want to then don't. Do whatever helps in your treatment but censoring other people because it doesn't fit your agenda is pathetic, and quite sad actually.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 16, 2008, at 3:14:46
In reply to Re: Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves, posted by alienatari on April 15, 2008, at 23:17:53
> I think some of you should be ashamed of yourselves attacking her like that.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. If you want to support someone else, it's more civil just to support them directly.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
I encourage anyone who has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or is interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, to see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by antiserial on April 16, 2008, at 7:07:55
In reply to Re: Wierd Some I know In real Life Feel Better off » Phillipa, posted by SLS on April 15, 2008, at 20:22:13
> > Strange a few people I know feel sooo much better since they weaned off their ad's
>
>
> This is very often the result of a biological rebound caused by the abrupt dosage reduction of some drugs. It is temporary. I see lots of these people go back to their drugs without delay once the rebound disappears.I wonder how often this is the case, as others instead feel worse when quitting ADs. This poses another problem, because it makes people convinced that they "need" an AD afterall (I was one of them). The normalization of the brain chemistry can for some people take a very long time. I guess people should be patient whether they want to try meds, or quit meds.
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