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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rett on January 18, 2008, at 22:50:06
can being on an antidepressant for a long time reset your neurotransmittors permanently? (as in you need to be on it the rest of your life to "be normal" (ie functional) (and i dont mean to keep you out of depression, i mean in terms of memory, processing information, etc.)
i think i may have heard someone here said their doc said they needed to be on a certain drug for the rest of their life because their brain "needed it"... but i may be wrong...
Posted by Racer on January 18, 2008, at 23:34:49
In reply to resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by rett on January 18, 2008, at 22:50:06
Way back, when I took my first AD, the pdoc said that taking an antidepressant early in one's first episode of depression was thought to reset (ie: correct) the brain's chemistry, and thus reduce the risk of another episode down the road. That was the thinking at that time, although I'm not sure if it's still on anyone's radar these days.
Nowadays, there are a lot of doctors saying, "stay on 'em indefinitely." That's relatively new thinking: maybe ten to fifteen years ago I started hearing it. Before that, I heard anything from six months to two years.
That said, for those of us who have had multiple episodes of depression, over a long term, it's probably true that we need to stay on meds prophylactically. If you get treatment early in your first episode, or you've had only one or two episodes, you may want to consider longer term treatment to prevent relapse, but you probably won't need it.
That's based only one what I've experienced and heard from doctors, though. I am not a doctor, and I do not play one on TV.
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2008, at 23:39:29
In reply to resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by rett on January 18, 2008, at 22:50:06
Rett could it have been me? As I ended up in the ER and doc consulted with the big psych hospital downtown about why high very high for me doses of benzos wouldn't let me sleep but a low dose of luvox and much lower dose of benzos did something in my brain that evidently my brain needed. And I went back on that regime and back to sleeping? Don't know. Phillipa
Posted by rett on January 19, 2008, at 0:48:15
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors? » rett, posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2008, at 23:39:29
> Rett could it have been me? As I ended up in the ER and doc consulted with the big psych hospital downtown about why high very high for me doses of benzos wouldn't let me sleep but a low dose of luvox and much lower dose of benzos did something in my brain that evidently my brain needed. And I went back on that regime and back to sleeping? Don't know. Phillipa
ah yes, it was you i believe! when you went on the low dose of luvox and benzo, had you been on luvox before?
Posted by rett on January 19, 2008, at 1:35:44
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors? » rett, posted by Racer on January 18, 2008, at 23:34:49
> Way back, when I took my first AD, the pdoc said that taking an antidepressant early in one's first episode of depression was thought to reset (ie: correct) the brain's chemistry, and thus reduce the risk of another episode down the road. That was the thinking at that time, although I'm not sure if it's still on anyone's radar these days.
>
> Nowadays, there are a lot of doctors saying, "stay on 'em indefinitely." That's relatively new thinking: maybe ten to fifteen years ago I started hearing it. Before that, I heard anything from six months to two years.
i wish *my doctor* said that! (to stay on indefinitely)... though he didnt really care if i took them or not as long as i didnt bother him..!> That said, for those of us who have had multiple episodes of depression, over a long term, it's probably true that we need to stay on meds prophylactically. If you get treatment early in your first episode, or you've had only one or two episodes, you may want to consider longer term treatment to prevent relapse, but you probably won't need it.
hmm, you see the thing was i was never DEPRESSED per say, i had an eating disorder... and i *still had* the eating disorder on the damn thing, so i couldnt really say if i ever had relapsed or anything... the only time i was ever depressed was sort of depression rebound from coming off antidepressants.. but anyhoo. what i am saying is resetting your neurotransmittors (not in order to prevent depression but to control mental functions of memory, the capacity to visualise things, and interpretting things around you, etc. i dont mean you cant do these things because you are depressed but because the neurotransmittor pathways are changed from antidepressants and once the antidepressant is taken away there is sort of like a "short circuit"..for example, when i was having withdrawals the first time (i didnt realise it was withdrawals because my doc said there was none) my friend was talking to me once and said "you cant hear me can you?" and i couldnt i couldnt process what she was saying, or what was going on around me, that all cleared up when i went back on it again, but the second time i came off it got past that stage and i didnt find my way back...
man, i wish my doc told me to stay on that stuff the rest of my life..
> That's based only one what I've experienced and heard from doctors, though. I am not a doctor, and I do not play one on TV.
i seem to find other people that have experience of antidepressants more useful than most docs that just spew the pharmaceutical marketing.. ;-)
Posted by Racer on January 19, 2008, at 2:30:42
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by rett on January 19, 2008, at 1:35:44
If you had an eating disorder, there was no reason to put you on an antidepressant in the first place! There is some evidence that Prozac can prevent a relapse in bulimia, and some evidence that Topomax may help reduce the urge to binge in bulimia, but NO medication has EVER been found to be effective on its own in treating eating disorders. Period.
If I keep discussing this, though, I'll get even more riled up and probably get a PBC -- and while I've always wanted to issue a PBC to myself, because I think it would be funny, I would also like to stick with the rules.
Seriously -- therapy for eating disorders. That's the treatment of choice. There have been a lot of different studies saying this sort, or that sort, but pretty much every eating disorders specialist out there agrees that therapy is the first line treatment for eating disorders.
It doesn't sound to me as though you've experienced the best of psychiatric care, and I'm very sorry to hear about that. It sounds as though your doctor was not terribly supportive nor respectful. Many doctors out there are, and I hope you find one.
Good luck.
Posted by Mikez on January 19, 2008, at 5:40:38
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors? » rett, posted by Racer on January 19, 2008, at 2:30:42
Wow I can tell you Rett's situation was a mirror of mine..i wish i was never put on meds either..I can't believe I was especially at such a young age...changed my personality for good.
Posted by Justherself54 on January 19, 2008, at 9:32:28
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by Mikez on January 19, 2008, at 5:40:38
I was joking around with my pdoc and asked him if I had brain damage..he said no..but with each major depressive episode I've gone through my neurotransmitters are damaged..I've also had ECT and I'm sure it rearranged a few! I know I'll probably have to say on an antidepressant for the rest of my life..my fear is not being on one but finding one that won't poop out on me..
I have to agree that many AD's I have taken most certainly did change aspects of my personality..the depression was lifted but I didn't feel like "myself" EVER..the AD I'm taking now has changed that.. I'm the old me, with all my old quirks and habits..it's like going back in time and finding myself again..I don't know what it did to my scrambled transmitters but I now know that my pre-depression persona was still there. The only way I can describe it now, is like pieces of my personality were in limbo, some AD's pulled parts (some found my grumpy side) together, but this med has pulled them all together..I know that sounds strange, even stranger as I'm typing it..but it's the best I can do pre morning java..
Posted by linkadge on January 19, 2008, at 9:55:32
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by Justherself54 on January 19, 2008, at 9:32:28
I absolutely think that antidepressant use (esp long term or started at a young age) can cause long term (or permanant) alterations in neurotransmitter functioning. Mice studies show that theraputic doses of fluoxetine (for instance) given at certain life stages can induce an upregulation in serotonin transporter expression which are long lasting (lifetime). There have also been studies that show they can alter the expression of the way tryptophan hydroxlase works to synthesize serotonin.
I've read other studies that suggest there is a permanant alteration in 5-ht1a autoreceptor function in mice given SERT blockers at for certain periods, and some studies suggest that serotonin receptor downregulation/desensitization remains to some degree in the long term.
I would imagine that there would be a persistant upregulation of SERT transporters in the NAA, just as cocaine induces an upregulation in DAT transporters there.
I personally have been "worse than before" since coming off long term use of SSRI's. I also have movement problems that only improve when I go back on the drugs. I also feel that I cannot acess many memories that I formed while on the drug. In addition, I feel strong urges to iscolate, as well as panic attacks, orgasic anhedonia, persistant genital anesthesia, and a mood that is generally much worse than before SSRI usage.
There is really no long term data to suggest that antidepressants are safe or effective for long term use, or that they really do prevent episodes of depression in the long term (let alone work at all - separate issue).
Telling patients to stay on the drugs long term is not yet data based (IMHO), and is probably more so that patients don't have to go through withdrawl.
Linkadge
Posted by Racer on January 19, 2008, at 11:03:44
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by linkadge on January 19, 2008, at 9:55:32
>
> Telling patients to stay on the drugs long term is not yet data based (IMHO), and is probably more so that patients don't have to go through withdrawl.
>
>
> Linkadge
>For what it's worth, I tend to think it's really about doctors trying to protect their patients from another episode of depression -- they are human, and probably get pretty frustrated at how little is really known about the causes of depression, what is the best way to avoid relapse, etc. I realize many here won't agree with me, but I tend to think of psychiatrists as generally well meaning people, doing the best they can with the tools they've got. I'm sure they're wishing they had better, but sometimes you gotta make do.
Just another view on the topic...
Posted by rett on January 19, 2008, at 12:45:40
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors? » rett, posted by Racer on January 19, 2008, at 2:30:42
> If you had an eating disorder, there was no reason to put you on an antidepressant in the first place! There is some evidence that Prozac can prevent a relapse in bulimia,
thank you, its soo true. Lol, "relapse" of bulimia? i never stopped, in fact i only started puking *after* i was put on prozac! ***ARGH!!!!***
my neurotransmittors are messed. i *like* to think that if i just went back on massive of doses of prozac i would get somewhat fuctional again, but then again i hear that once you've been off it you can react differently to it...
Posted by rett on January 19, 2008, at 12:57:52
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by linkadge on January 19, 2008, at 9:55:32
>
> I personally have been "worse than before" since coming off long term use of SSRI's. I also have movement problems that only improve when I go back on the drugs.can i ask what kind of movement problems? i can barely walk now, its like my legs are turning to wood or something, i kind of have this funny "shuffle" (imagine that your legs are tied to wooden planks and you kind you dont have free movement of them..)
Posted by SteelyDan on January 19, 2008, at 14:43:10
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by Racer on January 19, 2008, at 11:03:44
> >
> > Telling patients to stay on the drugs long term is not yet data based (IMHO), and is probably more so that patients don't have to go through withdrawl.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
>
> For what it's worth, I tend to think it's really about doctors trying to protect their patients from another episode of depression -- they are human, and probably get pretty frustrated at how little is really known about the causes of depression, what is the best way to avoid relapse, etc. I realize many here won't agree with me, but I tend to think of psychiatrists as generally well meaning people, doing the best they can with the tools they've got. I'm sure they're wishing they had better, but sometimes you gotta make do.
>
> Just another view on the topic...Just my opinion, i tend to agree with you. I think many Psychiatrists get frustrated because Depression is very hard to treat, and their resources are limited. They basically make an educated guess when dispensing a medication, many times I have actually chosen my own medications, as i'm sure many people here have done the same.
Dan
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2008, at 18:57:56
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors? » Racer, posted by SteelyDan on January 19, 2008, at 14:43:10
No argument but the pdoc I got when I moved here was an eating disorder specialist. What meds would he have used for an eating disorder. He was a huge man for his Height. Me the double doses of cymbalta. I did not like his attitude at all. First visit 20minutes husband timed it. I usually am asked what I'd like to try with the far away pdoc but I need another. So hard to find a good one. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on January 19, 2008, at 19:34:42
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by Justherself54 on January 19, 2008, at 9:32:28
> I have to agree that many AD's I have taken most certainly did change aspects of my personality..the depression was lifted but I didn't feel like "myself" EVER..the AD I'm taking now has changed that.. I'm the old me, with all my old quirks and habits..it's like going back in time and finding myself again..What is your medication(s)? Curious.
Posted by Jeroen on January 19, 2008, at 22:47:04
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors? » rett, posted by Racer on January 18, 2008, at 23:34:49
it saved my life an SSRI few years ago read
i had severe pannick attacks, something wrong with my seratoninethe SSRI seroxat 30 mg, corrected the problem instead of 'resetting' as you mean even after quiting it, it corrected the imbalance and i didnt need to stay on
i hope this is bit usefull to you
Posted by rett on January 21, 2008, at 1:27:25
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by linkadge on January 19, 2008, at 9:55:32
> I've read other studies that suggest there is a permanant alteration in 5-ht1a autoreceptor function in mice given SERT blockers at for certain periods, and some studies suggest that > I personally have been "worse than before" since coming off long term use of SSRI's. I also have movement problems that only improve when I go back on the drugs. >>
sorry, could i ask what your movement disorders are off the drug if you dont mind sharing because i have them too..
Posted by stargazer2 on January 21, 2008, at 8:41:00
In reply to resetting brain neurotransmittors?, posted by rett on January 18, 2008, at 22:50:06
Posted by linkadge on January 21, 2008, at 16:06:37
In reply to Perfect post for new 'neurotransmittors' section.. (nm), posted by stargazer2 on January 21, 2008, at 8:41:00
For starters my body doesn't feel symetrical or ballanced. I have feelings like my head is being twisted to the left. My handwriting is garbage, yet before meds it was model. Co-ordination and ballance problems. I feel an inner motion like sombody is pushing me or proping me up with a pole. I sometimes feel a tendancy to move my head in sinusoial head motion like a chicken pecking. I have a tenancy to move my mouth and lips like a smacking type of motion. I sometimes feel an "inner warbling" or spinning to the earth. I am always miscaculating the height of the ground like it is too high or too low. I also feel an extreme tightness of motion, stiffness, motion is not smooth its always jerky. I have lost dexterity. The list goes on.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2008, at 18:41:01
In reply to Re: Perfect post for new 'neurotransmittors' section.., posted by linkadge on January 21, 2008, at 16:06:37
Link how old were you when you were put on SSRI's and it sounds like what happens from the old antipsychtics. My heart goes out to you as a lot of the inserts on an SSRI says the trials were for about 8 weeks. I think I read that if someone is stable for two years try weaning off the med. Anyone know anything about this?
Posted by rett on January 21, 2008, at 23:52:35
In reply to Re: Perfect post for new 'neurotransmittors' section.., posted by linkadge on January 21, 2008, at 16:06:37
> For starters my body doesn't feel symetrical or ballanced. I have feelings like my head is being twisted to the left. My handwriting is garbage, yet before meds it was model. Co-ordination and ballance problems. I feel an inner motion like sombody is pushing me or proping me up with a pole. I sometimes feel a tendancy to move my head in sinusoial head motion like a chicken pecking. I have a tenancy to move my mouth and lips like a smacking type of motion. I sometimes feel an "inner warbling" or spinning to the earth. I am always miscaculating the height of the ground like it is too high or too low. I also feel an extreme tightness of motion, stiffness, motion is not smooth its always jerky. I have lost dexterity. The list goes on.
>
> Linkadgethanks for the tips, do you mind me asking what the med is/was?
Posted by rett on January 21, 2008, at 23:56:21
In reply to Re: Perfect post for new 'neurotransmittors' section.., posted by rett on January 21, 2008, at 23:52:35
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> thanks for the tips, do you mind me asking what the med is/was?p.s. how long were you on it?
i feel like my body has been tied to a piece of wood and i can barely walk.. it s incredible, my problem is i have no idea which drug it was as they thre me on so much stuff in the last year...
Posted by elanor roosevelt on January 23, 2008, at 22:44:56
In reply to p.s. linkdage, posted by rett on January 21, 2008, at 23:56:21
This is such a difficult question to contemplate
1)pdocs were sold a bill of goods years ago. they did believe that the drugs were going to reset brain chemistry for a while.
2) chronic depression tends to worsen over time and each major episode can cause damage
c'mon oh wise ones, is it to the glia?
3) once the meds have taken away pieces of us, when we go on a quest to regain ourselves, many pdocs act as if this is an odd and unrealistic desire. it seems the longer we struggle with depression, the lower the expectations of pdocs (as in settling for "functional")
4) pdocs have to recognize the problem before they can help us with this. i do think there are ways to reboot the brain chemistry. I don't know what they are yet but i am going to keep trying
good luck to you all]
hang in there
Posted by linkadge on January 24, 2008, at 17:52:30
In reply to Re: Perfect post for new 'neurotransmittors' section.., posted by rett on January 21, 2008, at 23:52:35
what med. well its hard to pin down. It occured mainly during celexa, and zoloft usage.
Linkadge
Posted by Justherself54 on January 26, 2008, at 18:33:59
In reply to Re: resetting brain neurotransmittors? » Justherself54, posted by bleauberry on January 19, 2008, at 19:34:42
>
> > I have to agree that many AD's I have taken most certainly did change aspects of my personality..the depression was lifted but I didn't feel like "myself" EVER..the AD I'm taking now has changed that.. I'm the old me, with all my old quirks and habits..it's like going back in time and finding myself again..
>
> What is your medication(s)? Curious.Sorry to take so long to reply..didn't check this thread for awhile..I'm taking Nardil..
>
This is the end of the thread.
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