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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 1:32:06
In reply to The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 0:58:38
Time to try a bit of alcohol. I hate to do it, but I am desperate.
Posted by star008 on December 31, 2007, at 7:39:11
In reply to The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 0:58:38
have you tried lunesta Maxime?? Works fairly well most of the time and no hangover the next day from it. Ambien actually kept me up.. I can take Lunesta and stay up if i want to..but when I do go to bed I sleep at leat for a few hours.
Posted by Justherself54 on December 31, 2007, at 8:03:12
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by star008 on December 31, 2007, at 7:39:11
When do you take your seroquel Maxime? Can you take it closer to bedtime. What about zopiclone..have you tried that..if not, it would be worth a shot..your lack of sleep is probably feeding your depression and IMO needs to be taken seriously..it's not fun being awake all night.. I'm taking Nardil and going through the insomnia thing..
Maybe all of us insomniacs need to set up a 2 in the morning chat session! At least it wouldn't feel so lonely..
Posted by Phoenix1 on December 31, 2007, at 9:00:00
In reply to The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 0:58:38
Mi Maxime,
I have always had insomnia that got much worse during depression. And my currently low Nardil dosage is making it worse. I take 75mg Seroquel, and 7.5 Zopiclone (just switched from Oxazepam). I fall asleep fine, but wake up 2 or 3 hours later and then lie awake for the rest of the night. It's not much fun.
I don't think there are many other pharmaceutical options if you are trying to avoid benzos. (Not sure if you are or not) Temazepam and Oxazepam are both used for sleep and have appropriate half lives. If it's just sleep onset but not maintetnance that's the issue, then triazolam is sometimes used. Benzos like Valium and Clonazepam are not considered good sleep meds, especially clonazepam. More anxiolysis than sedation, and LONG half-lives. In my experience, while less potent on the charts, zopiclone makes a better sleep med than the traditional benzos. But I find that it is considered to be just about as dependance and tolerance causing as any of the benzos. (Please don't PBC me for overgeneralization, I can cite literature if necessary). For a while, we had a cool drug in Canada called Stil-Noc (I think Sonata in the US). Zaleplon is the generic name although it is no longer manufactured from what I understand. It worked well for me because it had such a short half life and quick onset of action that I could take one to fall asleep and then another in the middle of the night if I woke up again, and still not feel hung-over the next day. I wish we had Ambien CR in Canada...
There are antihistamines like diphenhydramine, hydroxyzine, or promethazine, but they have some drawbacks as well, and anyways the Seroquel your on has it's own antihistaminic action which I think is what is supposed to make it sedating.
And then there are things like doxepin and trazodone. I haven't had much luck with them, but many others have.
Finally, gabapentin and pregabalin seem to help sleep. There is literature on this if you do a search. They are not indicated for sleep, but I believe pregabalin is indicated for anxiety disorders in some countries. I certainly slept better while using either one of these. But, although there isn't much literature on this, I personally found that they caused worse dependance than the benzos, and my withdrawal experience from pregabalin (even in the presence of a taper) was horrid, and lasted for weeks.
Anyways, I'm sure you already know most of this, but just thought I'd post my experiences. I hope you find a way to sleep better, because I can certainly sympathize. I've had my share of those nights, and still battle them sometimes. See what your pdoc has to say. Mine thinks that establishing somewhat normal sleep patterns is an important part of relieving depression. Good luck.
Phoenix1
Posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 18:23:15
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by star008 on December 31, 2007, at 7:39:11
> have you tried lunesta Maxime?? Works fairly well most of the time and no hangover the next day from it. Ambien actually kept me up.. I can take Lunesta and stay up if i want to..but when I do go to bed I sleep at leat for a few hours.
We don't have Lunesta is Canada. But we do have Immovane which is similar. All it does is leave a nasty taste in my mouth. We don't have Ambien either. I used it when I lived in the States and found it worked well.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 18:26:44
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Justherself54 on December 31, 2007, at 8:03:12
I take my Seroquel in the morning and before bed (100 mg each time). I tried taking 200 mg at bedtime for sleep, but it didn't help.Zopiclone doesn't work on me.
I didn't sleep at all last night. It's bad for me because I am more depressed at night and I tend to cut due to anxiety. I had too many hours to self-destruct last night. :(
Yeah, an insomniacs chatroom would be great!
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 18:31:05
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » Maxime, posted by Phoenix1 on December 31, 2007, at 9:00:00
Thanks Phoenix.
I am trying to stay away from benzos. I am finally off clonazepam and I don't want to use a benzo ever again. I take 100 mg of Seroquel at night (anxiety/depression).
Benedryl doesn't work on me anymore. Today I was tempted to by Nyquil but I don't want to get addicted to it.
Ideally I would like to be able to sleep without meds. But right now I really need sleep. I've gone several days without out. Everything seems worse.
Nardil helped me sleep when I was on it.
Thanks for your input! :)
Maxime
Posted by kezia on December 31, 2007, at 20:18:20
In reply to The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 0:58:38
Ok, I know it sounds crazy, but I have been using this sleep cd. Someone on Babble recommended it, and it has been great. I am not at home right now, so I don't have the exact name, but it is by a Dr. named Jeffrey Thompson (I think that is right). It is a deltawave sleep aid. It is very soothing. I find I fall asleep with my headphones on. You can get it at Chapters and it's not expensive at all. Other than that, I have heard of 2 herbs that help with sleep - valerian root and ashwaghanda.
Yeah, and alcohol does help with sleep, but it is not a restorative sleep, unfortunately.
I hope you find something to help you sleep soon.
> It's almost 2 am and I am wide awake. This wouldn't bother me too much except for the fact that I didn't at all the night before.
>
> I have yet to find a med that helps me sleep.
>
> Insomnia is lonely. Anyone else out there sleepless?
>
> I did a body relaxation exercise, but it didn't really take. I've had some milk to drink.
>
> I just wish I could find something that would help
>
> Maxime
Posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 20:29:20
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » Maxime, posted by kezia on December 31, 2007, at 20:18:20
Usinf a CD is not crazy at all. I have one to relax the body. I will look up the chap you mentioned.
I didn't know you lived in Canada!
Maxime
>
Posted by star008 on January 1, 2008, at 2:06:51
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » star008, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 18:23:15
yeah.. i know the nasty taste thing. Do you have Rozerem? I wasn't thrilled with the hangovers but it might work for you.Ambien made me "drunk",, I tokk one and it didn't work, took another, still not tired, I think I took a third and ended up chatting with guys on the net and having no memeory of what i said or who they were.. E-GADS.
I was getting messages the next day that told me waht I had done.. oh, no,, what ever did I tell these men??
Posted by Mikez on January 1, 2008, at 4:51:28
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » kezia, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 20:29:20
Have you tried low dose seroquel...the higher the dose, the less sedating it is actually...I took 25mg at night and woke up feeling like a new person. Previously I couldnt get to bed until 8 am, but on it, was going to bed 12 each night.
Posted by linkadge on January 1, 2008, at 15:35:40
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Mikez on January 1, 2008, at 4:51:28
Can't help but jump in on the post. My own battle with insomnia has been rough. It is by far the single most disruptive problem I have. Insomnia can destroys lives, frienships, jobs, you name it.
Chronic insomniacs have a crappy quality of life IMHO.My mother has had insomnia for like 20 years. Her sleep wake cycle is f*ck*d up (please excuse the language but nothing else describes it).
Anyhow, I wish I could say more, but I sympathize, and hope scientists come up with something novel to help those who need it.
Linkadge
Posted by BGB on January 1, 2008, at 16:47:34
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by linkadge on January 1, 2008, at 15:35:40
I found that Seroquel had a paradoxical response as far as sleep went. 600mg at bedtime (for mood stabilization) made me a little drowsy, but when I took 25mg, I got knocked out like a light.
I had the same experience with Remeron. 15mg put me down like a sledgehammer but the 60mg I take now has no effect on me.
I also have good luck with Melatonin. I especially like the sublingual tablets that you can get at health food stores or online, because they work quickly. BTW, Melatonin is the only nutritional supplement, herb, vitamin, or other "natural" non-drug product that I have ever tried (for any purpose) that has had any noticeable effect on me at all.
Best of luck to you dear, sleep is so important to your mental and physical health. If you have access to one, maybe you could try seeing a "sleep neurologist"? I have one for my sleep apnea and she is wonderful.
Take care. =)
==DISCLAIMER: None of the above statements are generalizations. I am not generalizing that natural medicine products do not work. These are just my own personal experiences.==
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 1, 2008, at 19:25:09
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by BGB on January 1, 2008, at 16:47:34
Can anyone explain pharmacologically the paradoxical low-dose being more sedating thatn high dose for Seroquel. I know for Remeron, it's H1 effects kick in at a very low dose and cause sedation but at higher doses, there is a NE boost that countereffects the sedation. What does Seroquel do at higher doses to cause less sedation?
Oh, and sorry if I'm stealing your thread Maxime. But maybe less Seroquel at night = better sleep?
Phoenix1
> I found that Seroquel had a paradoxical response as far as sleep went. 600mg at bedtime (for mood stabilization) made me a little drowsy, but when I took 25mg, I got knocked out like a light.
>
> I had the same experience with Remeron. 15mg put me down like a sledgehammer but the 60mg I take now has no effect on me.
>
> I also have good luck with Melatonin. I especially like the sublingual tablets that you can get at health food stores or online, because they work quickly. BTW, Melatonin is the only nutritional supplement, herb, vitamin, or other "natural" non-drug product that I have ever tried (for any purpose) that has had any noticeable effect on me at all.
>
> Best of luck to you dear, sleep is so important to your mental and physical health. If you have access to one, maybe you could try seeing a "sleep neurologist"? I have one for my sleep apnea and she is wonderful.
>
> Take care. =)
>
> ==DISCLAIMER: None of the above statements are generalizations. I am not generalizing that natural medicine products do not work. These are just my own personal experiences.==
Posted by Maxime on January 1, 2008, at 20:36:50
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Mikez on January 1, 2008, at 4:51:28
> Have you tried low dose seroquel...the higher the dose, the less sedating it is actually...I took 25mg at night and woke up feeling like a new person. Previously I couldnt get to bed until 8 am, but on it, was going to bed 12 each night.
I need the high dose of Seroquel because it's my mood stabiliser.
Maxime
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 1, 2008, at 21:31:01
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » Mikez, posted by Maxime on January 1, 2008, at 20:36:50
> > Have you tried low dose seroquel...the higher the dose, the less sedating it is actually...I took 25mg at night and woke up feeling like a new person. Previously I couldnt get to bed until 8 am, but on it, was going to bed 12 each night.
>
> I need the high dose of Seroquel because it's my mood stabiliser.
>
> Maxime
Maxime,Wondering if it is possible for you to adjust your dosing schedule so that at night you only take a small dose, and in the morning you take the large one. Or does it sedate you too much for daytime use? I'm not sure if it would help even if it is an option, but just a thought. Hope you find some sleep tonight.
Phoenix1
Posted by linkadge on January 1, 2008, at 22:12:41
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » Maxime, posted by Phoenix1 on January 1, 2008, at 21:31:01
I know this is not related, but seroquel has a nasty withdrawl for me. I use small doses as a sleep aid, but when I stop, my thinking gets very distorted. Somtimes I sit in the courner and stare at the wall for a day or two.
Linkadge
Posted by amigan on January 2, 2008, at 0:45:57
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » Maxime, posted by Phoenix1 on December 31, 2007, at 9:00:00
As phoenix1 said, i recommend you to try Hydroxyzine or Promethazine. They both works as potent hypnotics for me. The only drawback is their long half-lives and that you start to develop tolerance after some weeks.
Trazodone doesn't do much for me. I think it works well for depressive insomniacs, only.
Alcohol is a bad choice, imho.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on January 2, 2008, at 3:26:01
In reply to Why is Seroquel more sedating at low doses?, posted by Phoenix1 on January 1, 2008, at 19:25:09
I have found that to be the case after taking Seroquel for many years. When taking NO other meds, Seroquel makes me very sedated at 25-50mg and not much sedated at 100+.
Posted by Maxime on January 2, 2008, at 16:59:03
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by linkadge on January 1, 2008, at 22:12:41
> I know this is not related, but seroquel has a nasty withdrawl for me. I use small doses as a sleep aid, but when I stop, my thinking gets very distorted. Somtimes I sit in the courner and stare at the wall for a day or two.
>
> LinkadgeWhy do you stop taking it?
Maxime
Posted by 4WD on January 2, 2008, at 20:10:01
In reply to The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread, posted by Maxime on December 31, 2007, at 0:58:38
> It's almost 2 am and I am wide awake. This wouldn't bother me too much except for the fact that I didn't at all the night before.
>
> I have yet to find a med that helps me sleep.
>
> Insomnia is lonely. Anyone else out there sleepless?
>
> I did a body relaxation exercise, but it didn't really take. I've had some milk to drink.
>
> I just wish I could find something that would help
>
> MaximeHi Maxime,
I guess this might be a dumb suggestion since you've probably already tried it but Trazadone really helps me sleep. Better than Ambien by far. But then my problem isn't falling asleep, it's staying asleep --i.e. waking up way too early.
How long has the insomnia been a problem? I know you are on Zoloft and when I was on Prozac I had terrible insomnia the whole 8 years. When I was switched to Effexor, the insomnia improved greatly. But what got rid of it entirely was when I started taking Cymbalta. I took it for about five months and during that time I could even take naps. I could fall asleep normally and naturally. I took it in the morning so it wasn't from any sedative effect.
What's more, when I stopped Cymbalta, the insomnia did not come back. It's like it changed something in my brain that stayed changed even after I stopped taking the drug.
I sympathize with you deeply. The whole time I was on Prozac I would spend 2-4 hours in bed waiting to fall asleep. I'd get up and go back, get up and go back. Most of the time, though, I'd just lie there and wait. It was horrible. I thank God often that the insomnia is gone.
What have you tried?
Marsha
Posted by Maxime on January 2, 2008, at 20:50:35
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » Maxime, posted by 4WD on January 2, 2008, at 20:10:01
I have suffered from insomnia since I was a young child. I could never fall asleep.
I have trouble with both staying asleep and getting to sleep.
I have tried the following for sleep. Most of them worked, but then stopped working:
Immovane (similar to your Lunesta)
Nozinan
Thorazine
Trazadone
A benzo that I can't remember
Tryptophan
Risperdal
Zyprexa
Seroquel
Benadryl
Surmontil
Amitryptaline
Ativan
AtaraxWe don't have as many sleep meds as you have in the US. When I lived in the US I took Ambien which worked for a while.
Maxime
Posted by linkadge on January 2, 2008, at 22:45:41
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » linkadge, posted by Maxime on January 2, 2008, at 16:59:03
Cause I hate it. (simple answer)
Linkadge
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 3, 2008, at 14:44:05
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » Maxime, posted by linkadge on January 2, 2008, at 22:45:41
> Cause I hate it. (simple answer)
>
> LinkadgeSorry to bug you, but why do you hate it? Do you just take the low doses for sleep, or higher doses as a mood stabilizer? I haven't heard many people complain about it as a sleep aid. I'm interested because I also take low doses for sleep and maybe I'm missing something, because it seems to work pretty well for me. But then again, everybody really reacts differently to different meds, right?
Phoenix1
Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2008, at 15:23:32
In reply to Re: The I can't find a med to help me sleep thread » linkadge, posted by Phoenix1 on January 3, 2008, at 14:44:05
I was prescribed 25-50mg as an adjunctive to an antidepressnat. It kindof helps with sleep, but the next day I am pretty much a zombie. It kills my motivation, messes up my coordination, gives me a stiff neck, induces jaw cleching, makes it hard to move my eyes sometimes. I also tend to bindge on really fattening foods the next day. It gives me a strange heartbeat, and a tight chest. I feel spacey on it till about 3:00pm. It makes things look visually unsymetric. I feel ickey the next day. I feel hungry yet full at the same time, and experience a vague feeling of uneasiness about wheather I am hungry or thirsty or neither. It makes me feel uncomforable in my body, like certain thoughts are being blocked, I feel like I can't acces my whole brain. I kind of feel more worthless the next day, and it seems to kill what little interest I had.
The withdrawl makes me paranoid, and I fly into short bursts of rage. I also have an extreme desire to iscolate myself during withdrawl. Withdrawl makes my thoughts really distorted and nonsensicle.
Short answer, I hate it, it feels so dirty, and I feel dirty on it.
Linkadge
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