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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cumulative on September 25, 2007, at 23:31:01
Every medicine develops tolerance. Euphoric effects may be related to dopaminergic activity in the nucleus accumbens, to which you develop a tolerance extremely quickly.
Must I trick a doctor into giving me an electrode, hide the euphoria from them while it's implanted? Yes.
Peace out,
Cumulative
Posted by obsidian on September 26, 2007, at 0:46:25
In reply to I seek permanent hypomania., posted by cumulative on September 25, 2007, at 23:31:01
good luck in your quest
Posted by Netch on September 26, 2007, at 4:02:39
In reply to I seek permanent hypomania., posted by cumulative on September 25, 2007, at 23:31:01
happiness comes, happiness goes... euphoria is transient for everyone. What you should look for is peace of mind... I think :-)
Posted by tecknohed on September 26, 2007, at 6:20:32
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by Netch on September 26, 2007, at 4:02:39
I just wanna be able to COPE with life. Nardil helped me cope (for a while) & a lot more besides!
Posted by Phillipa on September 26, 2007, at 12:09:41
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by tecknohed on September 26, 2007, at 6:20:32
Me too one week of normal and being able to go out on my own and getting up before ll am and being to drive and wanting to go somewhere and smiling and looking happy like the people I see in their cars. And not wanting to sleep all day now. I had lots of energy a few months ago and it's all gone. Phillipa
Posted by sometimesblue on September 27, 2007, at 8:41:18
In reply to I seek permanent hypomania., posted by cumulative on September 25, 2007, at 23:31:01
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2007, at 12:04:13
In reply to I seek permanent hypomania., posted by cumulative on September 25, 2007, at 23:31:01
>Every medicine develops tolerance. Euphoric >effects may be related to dopaminergic activity >in the nucleus accumbens, to which you develop a >tolerance extremely quickly.
>Must I trick a doctor into giving me an >electrode, hide the euphoria from them while >it's implanted? Yes.
You're seeking bipolar gene expression. No doctor would implant an electrode directly into your Neucleus accumbens. I don't think this is what DBS does.
Even so, rat experiments show that they will develop tollerance to threshold electrical stimulation of the neucleus accumbens.
It is *too* hard wired. It is impossable to think your way around it. Its got feedback loops on its feedback loops.
It is the nature of human to believe he can achieve perpetual happiness, but your brain would never let you get there as then nothing else would matter.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on September 27, 2007, at 15:46:32
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by linkadge on September 27, 2007, at 12:04:13
> >Every medicine develops tolerance. Euphoric >effects may be related to dopaminergic activity >in the nucleus accumbens, to which you develop a >tolerance extremely quickly.
>
> >Must I trick a doctor into giving me an >electrode, hide the euphoria from them while >it's implanted? Yes.
>
> You're seeking bipolar gene expression. No doctor would implant an electrode directly into your Neucleus accumbens. I don't think this is what DBS does.
>
> Even so, rat experiments show that they will develop tollerance to threshold electrical stimulation of the neucleus accumbens.
>
> It is *too* hard wired. It is impossable to think your way around it. Its got feedback loops on its feedback loops.
>
> It is the nature of human to believe he can achieve perpetual happiness, but your brain would never let you get there as then nothing else would matter.
>
> Linkadge
>I don't know much about biology, but i have noticed that sensory and perceptual information processing works very much like electrical switches: for example, when a saturation point of stimulation is reached in the senses, the organ switches off, and requires a set time to revive.
An example, would be bright lights' threshold and time needed to recover pre-stimulation state.I've wondered if it is possible that manic-depressive states may follow a similar principle. But that is just an analogy and i guess the whole brain would not work the same way as sensory apparatus.
A permanent steady state is probably not possible even in a coma. Only death as far as we know-- maybe that's why they say "rest in peace".
Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2007, at 20:06:45
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania. » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on September 27, 2007, at 15:46:32
Yeah, what you are saying is likely true. There is only so much potential within the circutry. The cell can only fire so often before it will either die off from overstimulation (glutamate neurotoxicity) or simply stop to recharge.
Linkadge
Posted by Schess81 on September 28, 2007, at 11:51:25
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by linkadge on September 27, 2007, at 20:06:45
This all seems a little too pessimistic. My question is why do some people seem perpetually happy, rarely ever being depressed, while for others depression is a way of life- as far back as they can remember.
There must be subtle genetic differences that can effect the modulation of these systems, perhaps enhancing ones stress threshold, making serious depression extremely difficult to achieve in some individuals.
Posted by linkadge on September 28, 2007, at 23:14:05
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by Schess81 on September 28, 2007, at 11:51:25
>This all seems a little too pessimistic. My >question is why do some people seem perpetually >happy, rarely ever being depressed, while for >others depression is a way of life- as far back >as they can remember
I don't believe the perpetual hypomanic individual does truely exist. My mother oftentimes appears as one of those perpetual hypomanic individuals in public but then behind closed doors (its a little too "Ordinary People"ish)
I think it is fair to seek a lasting sence of well being, but asking for permanant hypomania is probably not possable.
Some of "those" people who appear to be perpetually hypomanic may too have mood disorders that are not seen,
You just don't know and thats why you cannot base how you should feel on how others "appear" to be feeling. You need to seek to do whats right and healthy for you.
Linkadge
Posted by cumulative on September 29, 2007, at 1:44:15
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by linkadge on September 28, 2007, at 23:14:05
>No doctor would implant an electrode directly into your Neucleus accumbens
In the electrical stimulation experiments, many patients became euphoric and they turned it down, or moved the device. Too bad. I would just lie to the researchers. I recognize that this effect would probably develop tolerance or other issues, though.
>It is the nature of human to believe he can achieve perpetual happiness, but your brain would never let you get there as then nothing else would matter.
Hypomania, in my experience, is not an experience of "nothing else mattering" but it is in fact intensely productive and intellectually useful. It may not be great for evolution on a wide scale (although the genes stick around) and that's why the ability to be constantly euphoric has apparently been selected against with feedback mechanisms ... but see, what's good for evolution isn't necessarily what's good for the individual -- otherwise women would take sperm pills instead of birth control pills.
>I don't believe the perpetual hypomanic individual does truely exist.
Why not? It's a spectrum. Frankly there are plenty of individuals who are constantly euphoric. This has actually been somewhat researched. Look up the hyperthymic temperament. A very few people rarely, if ever, come down.
You should know that my post was somewhat in jest and I don't feel this way entirely. I would probably best like to be able to summon the state at will, instead of "constantly" hypomanic.
>You need to seek to do whats right and healthy for you.
I'm not basing it on what I see in others, I'm basing it on my own experiences with drug-induced hypomania.
Posted by linkadge on September 29, 2007, at 15:43:55
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by cumulative on September 29, 2007, at 1:44:15
>Why not? It's a spectrum. Frankly there are >plenty of individuals who are constantly >euphoric. This has actually been somewhat >researched. Look up the hyperthymic temperament. >A very few people rarely, if ever, come down.
I don't see it as a spectrum at all. There are individuals who are stable, and then there are indivuduals who are not stable.
I've never known an individual who I could say is perpetually euphoric. I've known people who appear to be euphoric for long periods of time, but I don't live with them so I don't know.
The reason I don't believe they exist is because it would be unhealthy. Pain and discomfort exist to motivate just as much as pleasure does. Suppose an individual had a higher level of dopamine in the brain or something. The brain would eventually adapt just as it does to illegal drugs.
I think that some people might have forms of ultra slow cylothemia, ie they can go for years on hypomania and then years on dysthemia etc.
For every ying there is a yang.
>You should know that my post was somewhat in >jest and I don't feel this way entirely. I would >probably best like to be able to summon the >state at will, instead of "constantly" hypomanic.
Thats what illegal drugs are for.
>You need to seek to do whats right and healthy for you.
>I'm not basing it on what I see in others, I'm >basing it on my own experiences with drug->induced hypomania.
Exactly. Illegal drugs turn on genes that cause parts of the brain to "believe" in the ability to be constantly euphoric. Everybody who does drugs has a feeling of power that they have uncovered some secret ability to surmount that will last forever. If you were thinking about how it would be ending in a few hours then it wouldn't really be euporia.
Linkadge
Posted by cumulative on September 29, 2007, at 15:59:01
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by linkadge on September 29, 2007, at 15:43:55
>I don't see it as a spectrum at all. There are individuals who are stable, and then there are indivuduals who are not stable.
Some people are stable and much "higher" than others.
>I've never known an individual who I could say is perpetually euphoric.
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/stanley/2ndbipconf/ppt/W404_13/tsld012.htm
...not episode-bound and constitute part of the habitual long-term functioning of the individual ...
>The reason I don't believe they exist is because it would be unhealthy. Pain and discomfort exist to motivate just as much as pleasure does.
Autoimmune diseases are unhealthy too, they're still in the genes. You place far too much faith in the "proper" working of the system. Now, again, what's unhealthy for evolution isn't necessarily what's unhealthy for the individual.
>Suppose an individual had a higher level of dopamine in the brain or something. The brain would eventually adapt just as it does to illegal drugs.
It's just this -- people have different baselines. Some people's baselines are very high.
>Thats what illegal drugs are for.
Generally, they are crude tools. MAOIs are better, but like illegal drugs tolerance develops to euphoria, although excellent positive results usually remain.
>Exactly. Illegal drugs turn on genes that cause parts of the brain to "believe" in the ability to be constantly euphoric.
No they don't. Methamphetamine releases massive amounts of catecholamines. Hyperthymia is also associated with high catecholamine activity. Neither of these are relevant to the fact that in the literature, people who almost never, if ever, come down from their hyperthymic temperament.
>Everybody who does drugs has a feeling of power that they have uncovered some secret ability to surmount that will last forever.
No they don't.
>If you were thinking about how it would be ending in a few hours then it wouldn't really be euporia.
Probably true.
Posted by linkadge on September 30, 2007, at 9:59:00
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by cumulative on September 29, 2007, at 15:59:01
>Some people are stable and much "higher" than >others.
I don't personally believe so. I think it is probably a self constructed illusion. I would need to personally study such an individual before I could be convinved that such a phenomnia exists. The only person I knew to 'seemingly' fit that model ended up offing themselves. Apparently their hyperthemic personality trait was a reaction formation defense mechanism.
>...not episode-bound and constitute part of the >habitual long-term functioning of the >individual ...
Yeah, but I am not the one making the defintions or around to see that they are indeed acurate as oppsed to a person presenting longer term hypomania that crashes years down the road or that comes out behind closed doors ect.
Think of it this way. Hyperthemic personality can also be a self fufilling/sustaining prophecy. It is easy to hate the hyperthemic personality, so the individual may feel they need to fake a consistent hapiness in order to avoid the embarassment of publicly showing an alternate mood. Ie, they may feel "trapped" in the hyperthemic role etc.
Individuals like Robin Williams were once thought to be hyperthemic, but it is more evident now that they are A) good actors, and B) good at hiding alternate moods C) feel like they must maintain a certain mood image. D) possably good at brining on hypomania when needed.
Robin Williams has full fledged Bipolar, but from the image he presents, you'd never know it.
Theres also a problem of mood congruent memories. Ie a person in a long term hypomania may simply not recall times of depression. It may in fact seem to them that such a mood has always been.
>It's just this -- people have different >baselines. Some people's baselines are very high.I should have been more clear above. The reason I don't believe it is possable is that homeostasis reflects the most sustainable state. As soon as you deviate dramatically, the state becomes less likely to be sustainable. It taxes the system and will eventually take its toll.
>Generally, they are crude tools. MAOIs are >better, but like illegal drugs tolerance >develops to euphoria, although excellent >positive results usually remain.
I hated MAOI's. Parnate for me was psychosis in pill form. I would have had fewer side effects by performing manual sleep deprivation.
>No they don't. Methamphetamine releases massive >amounts of catecholamines. Hyperthymia is also >associated with high catecholamine activity.Yes they do. Most illegal drugs turn on "addiction genes", which tend to activate parts of the brain that are involved in the maintainance of reward seeking behavior and drug seeking behavior. If you look at the gene expression activated by methamphetamine there are a lot of paralells with bipolar mania. Ie PKC, GRK, CLOCK, etc.
>Neither of these are relevant to the fact that >in the literature, people who almost never, if >ever, come down from their hyperthymic >temperament.
I don't necessarily believe something that I read. Unless you monitor a peson 24/7 for a lifetime, you don't know how leeching out occurs in other aspects of their lives.
Linkadge
Posted by cumulative on September 30, 2007, at 16:54:34
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by linkadge on September 30, 2007, at 9:59:00
"Yes they do. Most illegal drugs turn on "addiction genes", which tend to activate parts of the brain that are involved in the maintainance of reward seeking behavior and drug seeking behavior"
And this is far, far from the belief-structure that hypomania can be maintained. No drug can CREATE such a belief -- people create beliefs. For the record, I've spent a lot lot lot of time around methamphetamine users (I was one) and no one ever thought what they were doing was sustainable.
The rest of your post is "I don't believe the literature on hyperthymia". Heh, whatever. I agree that most hyperthymics might get sad once in a while. I would still rather be hyperthymic MOST OF THE TIME, which is what for all intents and purposes I am referring to.
Peace,
cumulative
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2007, at 21:41:22
In reply to Re: I seek permanent hypomania., posted by cumulative on September 30, 2007, at 16:54:34
>And this is far, far from the belief-structure >that hypomania can be maintained. No drug can >CREATE such a belief -- people create beliefs. >For the record, I've spent a lot lot lot of time >around methamphetamine users (I was one) and no >one ever thought what they were doing was >sustainable.
But the fact that you are here, now, asking these questions, and desiring these realities is a testament to the notion that part of you desires the a permanant form of the unsustainable glimpse you may have been offered with the illegal drugs.
The fact is that illegal drugs such as methamphetamine turn on intermediate early genes, ie "addiction genes" that are very hard to turn off. Infact some studies show that such genes remain activated even years after a user has remained sober. It has been proposed that the acivation of such genes is why many former users have a very difficult time letting go of certain "seeking behavior" ie trying to recreate a mood whose memory is forever burned on your contious.
I have uses certain substances too. I wish I had never been exposed to certain substances, cause a major reason I am here now is a result of some of the doors that have been previously opened, (this includes legal prescription drugs)
When I suggest that a particular drug created a particular belief or turned on a particular pathway, I am not referring to a purely contious, rational, or logical knowledge. Everbody knows that a drug will eventually cause a crash, but more that it turns pathways that believe that an individual can activly control the way they feel, as opposed to letting the emotions do naturally as they will.
Get some ibogaine if you can, it shuts off the genes (in mice at least).
>The rest of your post is "I don't believe the >literature on hyperthymia". Heh, whatever. I >agree that most hyperthymics might get sad once >in a while. I would still rather be hyperthymic >MOST OF THE TIME, which is what for all intents >and purposes I am referring to
Well, I don't personally need to believe in the validity of hyperthemia. It still may be a good goal to shoot for though.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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