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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jesus is Savior on June 11, 2007, at 12:11:33
My Pdoc just started me on Zyprexa 10mgs. for benzo resistant anxiety and so far it's working great.
Is 10 mgs. an average dose, and is bedtime the best time to take it? Also, what is the 1/2 life of Zyprexa?
Thanks, MJ
Posted by Quintal on June 11, 2007, at 14:57:29
In reply to Zyprexa...working well!, posted by Jesus is Savior on June 11, 2007, at 12:11:33
Great news Monte! 10mg is a substantial dose to start off with. It depends on how conservative your pdoc is, but mine for example started me off on 2.5mg at night raising it to 5mg if necessary. The half-life of olanzapine is 21-54 hours, so once daily dosing at bedtime is usually adequate and causes less daytime drowsiness, brain f*rt etc.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2007, at 17:09:47
In reply to Re: Zyprexa...working well! » Jesus is Savior, posted by Quintal on June 11, 2007, at 14:57:29
Quintal how do you taper or just keep taking benzos with zyprexa? Any ideas? Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on June 12, 2007, at 1:36:26
In reply to Re: Zyprexa...working well!, posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2007, at 17:09:47
The precise rate of withdrawal is an individual matter. It depends on many factors including the dose and type of benzodiazepine used, duration of use, personality, lifestyle, previous experience, specific vulnerabilities, and the (perhaps genetically determined) speed of your recovery systems. Usually the best judge is you, yourself; you must be in control and must proceed at the pace that is comfortable for you. You may need to resist attempts from outsiders (clinics, doctors) to persuade you into a rapid withdrawal. The classic six weeks withdrawal period adopted by many clinics and doctors is much too fast for many long-term users. Actually, the rate of withdrawal, as long as it is slow enough, is not critical. Whether it takes 6 months, 12 months or 18 months is of little significance if you have taken benzodiazepines for a matter of years.
It is sometimes claimed that very slow withdrawal from benzodiazepines "merely prolongs the agony" and it is better to get it over with as quickly as possible. However, the experience of most patients is that slow withdrawal is greatly preferable, especially when the subject dictates the pace. Indeed, many patients find that there is little or no "agony" involved. Nevertheless there is no magic rate of withdrawal and each person must find the pace that suits him best. People who have been on low doses of benzodiazepine for a relatively short time (less than a year) can usually withdraw fairly rapidly. Those who have been on high doses of potent benzodiazepines such as Xanax and Klonopin are likely to need more time.
Some doctors in the US switch patients onto clonazepam (Klonopin, [Rivotril in Canada]), believing that it will be easier to withdraw from than say alprazolam (Xanax) or lorazepam (Ativan) because it is more slowly eliminated. However, Klonopin is far from ideal for this purpose. It is an extremely potent drug, is eliminated much faster than diazepam (See Table 1, Chapter I), and the smallest available tablet in the US is 0.5mg (equivalent to 10mg diazepam) and 0.25mg in Canada (equivalent to 5mg Valium). It is difficult with this drug to achieve a smooth, slow fall in blood concentration, and there is some evidence that withdrawal is particularly difficult from high potency benzodiazepines, including Klonopin. Some people, however, appear to have particular difficulty in switching from Klonopin to diazepam. In such cases it is possible to have special capsules made up containing small doses, e.g. an eighth or a sixteenth of a milligram or less, which can be used to make gradual dosage reductions straight from Klonopin. These capsules require a doctor's prescription and can be made up by hospital pharmacists and some chemists in the UK, and by compounding pharmacists in North America. A similar technique can be used for those on other benzodiazepines who find it hard to substitute diazepam. To locate a compounding pharmacist in the USA or Canada this web site may be useful: www.iacprx.org. Care must be taken to ensure that the compounding pharmacist can guarantee the same formula on each prescription renewal. It should be noted, however, that this approach to benzodiazepine withdrawal can be troublesome and is not recommended for general use.
Designing and following the withdrawal schedule.
------------------------------------------------Some examples of withdrawal schedules are given on later pages. Most of them are actual schedules which have been used and found to work by real people who withdrew successfully. But each schedule must be tailored to individual needs; no two schedules are necessarily the same. Below is a summary of points to consider when drawing up your own schedule.
1. Design the schedule around your own symptoms. For example, if insomnia is a major problem, take most of your dosage at bedtime; if getting out of the house in the morning is a difficulty, take some of the dose first thing (but not a large enough dose to make you sleepy or incompetent at driving!).
2. When switching over to diazepam, substitute one dose at a time, usually starting with the evening or night-time dose, then replace the other doses, one by one, at intervals of a few days or a week. Unless you are starting from very large doses, there is no need to aim for a reduction at this stage; simply aim for an approximately equivalent dosage. When you have done this, you can start reducing the diazepam slowly.If, however, you are on a high dose, such as 6mg alprazolam (equivalent to 120mg diazepam), you may need to undertake some reduction while switching over, and may need to switch only part of the dosage at a time (see Schedule 1). The aim is to find a dose of diazepam which largely prevents withdrawal symptoms but is not so excessive as to make you sleepy.
3. Diazepam is very slowly eliminated and needs only, at most, twice daily administration to achieve smooth blood concentrations. If you are taking benzodiazepines three or four times a day it is advisable to space out your dosage to twice daily once you are on diazepam. The less often you take tablets the less your day will revolve around your medication.
4. The larger the dose you are taking initially, the greater the size of each dose reduction can be. You could aim at reducing dosage by up to one tenth at each decrement. For example, if you are taking 40mg diazepam equivalent you could reduce at first by 2-4mg every week or two. When you are down to 20mg, reductions could be 1-2mg weekly or fortnightly. When you are down to 10mg, 1mg reductions are probably indicated. From 5mg diazepam some people prefer to reduce by 0.5mg every week or two.
5. There is no need to draw up your withdrawal schedule right up to the end. It is usually sensible to plan the first few weeks and then review and if necessary amend your schedule according to your progress. Prepare your doctor to be flexible and to be ready for your schedule to be adjusted to a slower (or faster) pace at any time.
6. As far as possible, never go backwards. You can stand still at a certain stage in your schedule and have a vacation from further withdrawal for a few weeks if circumstances change (if for instance there is a family crisis), but try to avoid ever increasing the dosage again. You don't want to back over ground you have already covered.
7. Avoid taking extra tablets in times of stress. Learn to gain control over your symptoms. This will give you extra confidence that you can cope without benzodiazepines (see Chapter III, Withdrawal Symptoms).
8. Avoid compensating for benzodiazepines by increasing your intake of alcohol, cannabis or non-prescription drugs. Occasionally your doctor may suggest other drugs for particular symptoms (see Chapter III, Withdrawal Symptoms), but do not take the sleeping tablets zolpidem (Ambien), zopiclone (Zimovane, Imovane) or zaleplon (Sonata) as they have the same actions as benzodiazepines.
9. Getting off the last tablet: Stopping the last few milligrams is often viewed as particularly difficult. This is mainly due to fear of how you will cope without any drug at all. In fact, the final parting is surprisingly easy. People are usually delighted by the new sense of freedom gained. In any case the 1mg or 0.5mg diazepam per day which you are taking at the end of your schedule is having little effect apart from keeping the dependence going. Do not be tempted to spin out the withdrawal to a ridiculously slow rate towards the end (such as 0.25mg each month). Take the plunge when you reach 0.5mg daily; full recovery cannot begin until you have got off your tablets completely. Some people after completing withdrawal like to carry around a few tablets with them for security "just in case", but find that they rarely if ever use them.
10. Do not become obsessed with your withdrawal schedule. Let it just become a normal way of life for the next few months. Okay, you are withdrawing from your benzodiazepines; so are many others. It's no big deal.
11. If for any reason you do not (or did not) succeed at your first attempt at benzodiazepine withdrawal, you can always try again. They say that most smokers make 7 or 8 attempts before they finally give up cigarettes. The good news is that most long-term benzodiazepine users are successful after the first attempt. Those who need a second try have usually been withdrawn too quickly the first time. A slow and steady benzodiazepine withdrawal, with you in control, is nearly always successful.(4) Withdrawal in older people. Older people can withdraw from benzodiazepines as successfully as younger people, even if they have taken the drugs for years. A recent trial with an elderly population of 273 general practice patients on long-term (mean 15 years) benzodiazepines showed that voluntary dosage reduction and total withdrawal of benzodiazepines was accompanied by better sleep, improvement in psychological and physical health and fewer visits to doctors. These findings have been repeated in several other studies of elderly patients taking benzodiazepines long-term.
There are particularly compelling reasons why older people should withdraw from benzodiazepines since, as age advances, they become more prone to falls and fractures, confusion, memory loss and psychiatric problems (see Chapter 1).
Methods of benzodiazepine withdrawal in older people are similar to those recommended above for younger adults. A slow tapering regimen, in my experience, is easily tolerated, even by people in their 80s who have taken benzodiazepines for 20 or more years. The schedule may include the use of liquid preparations if available and judicious stepwise substitution with diazepam (Valium) if necessary. There is, of course, a great deal of variation in the age at which individuals become "older" - perhaps 65-70 years would fit the definition in most cases.
The above summary applies to people who are planning to manage their own withdrawal - probably the majority of readers. Those who have the help of a knowledgeable and understanding doctor or counsellor may wish to share the burden somewhat. In my withdrawal clinic I used usually to draw up a draft schedule which I discussed with each patient. Most patients took a close interest in the schedule and suggested amendments from time to time. However, there were some who preferred not to think about the details too much but simply to follow the schedule rigidly to the end. This group was equally successful. A very few (probably about 20 patients out of 300) wished to know nothing about the schedule, but just to follow instructions; some of these also entered a clinical trial of withdrawal. For this group (with their consent or by their own request), dummy tablets were gradually substituted for the benzodiazepines. This method was also successful and at the end of the process the patients were amazed and delighted when they found they had been off benzodiazepines and taking only dummy tablets for the last 4 weeks. There are more ways than one of killing a cat, as they say!
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha02.htm#11Here is a pre-made withdrawal schedule suggesting one way of tapering off 3mg Klonopin:
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s6Q
Posted by Zyprexa on June 12, 2007, at 11:42:01
In reply to Zyprexa...working well!, posted by Jesus is Savior on June 11, 2007, at 12:11:33
10 mg is the most average dose, target dose. Half life is 1-2 days. 2-3 hours before bed. Zyprexa is excelent on anxiety.
Zyprexa
Posted by Zyprexa on June 12, 2007, at 11:49:28
In reply to Re: Zyprexa...working well!, posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2007, at 17:09:47
Phillipa?, are you taking zyprexa now? And stoping benzos?
Zyprexa
Posted by Phillipa on June 12, 2007, at 19:52:44
In reply to Re: Zyprexa...working well! » Phillipa, posted by Zyprexa on June 12, 2007, at 11:49:28
Not taking it e-mail me I'll explain. Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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