Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 3670

Shown: posts 106 to 130 of 130. Go back in thread:

 

Re: Effexor Withdrawl starrgem

Posted by SLS on June 15, 2004, at 5:53:20

In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl, posted by starrgem on June 15, 2004, at 3:52:31

> I ran out of effexor xr two days ago and cannot renew my script until my new insurance kicks in at the beginning of July. I don't know how I'm going to fare after the withdrawls I have had for the last 24 hours. I have been extremely light headed, disoriented, had periods of disorganized thoughts and speech, feelings of electricity in my brain, and numbness and tingling in me face and arms (mostly in my lips,cheeks,and gums). I have also been crying alot and have had periods of agitation so severe that I have almost been looking for a fight. I was worried I was having a stroke until I remembered my husband complained of some of the same symptoms when he missed a dose. This message board has brought me some relief (knowing I'm not having a stroke) but also makes me wonder what else I might be up against. If I end up having to wait until July 1st I don't think I will even consider going back to the effexor. It helped me through a really tough spot in my life but I never want to feel like this again if I can help it.


Maybe you can get some free samples from your doctor.

I wish you luck.


- Scott

 

Re: Effexor Symptoms

Posted by lostCause on July 26, 2004, at 14:25:13

In reply to Re: Effexor Symptoms, posted by robz on April 8, 2004, at 19:03:27

So let's say you were already dumb enough to go two days "Cold Turkey" without "tapering" from 300mg's of Effexor XR/day.. and you are starting to have pretty severe reactions (like everyone else: zinging, heart palps, dizziness, confusion, etc.) do you a) jump back on it full force and then begin to taper, b) get on it half force, c) call the p-doc, or d) keep suffering in the hopes that the misery ends soon????

 

Re: Effexor Symptoms

Posted by Camille Dumont on July 26, 2004, at 14:44:39

In reply to Re: Effexor Symptoms, posted by lostCause on July 26, 2004, at 14:25:13

Well, since I'm one of the "dumb enough" who did exactly that ... that is stop cold turkey from effexor 300 and celexa 20 ... I'll share my experience.

It was bad ... but tolerable for the first 4 days but on the fifth it was very very bad. I would throw up and could not hold any food. I kept hurting myself because I kept falling or bumping into stuff because I was so dizzy ... and I could barely make it from my bed to the bathroom ... I was sweating ... felt like I had a fever, caughing and being really miserable. When I started shaking I started to be afraid ... and then the suicidal thoughts crept up on me slowly, those insinuous little voices repeating to you over and over again how easy it would be to off yourself. So when I caught myself actually considering means I ran to the kitchen and popped two aspirins and a celexa and went to bed.

Lo and behold, 4 hours later I woke up without the dizzyness, without the nausea or the cold-like symptoms and I was actually hungry.

I think I would recommend going to your doctor's office and INSIST on him giving you somethign to mask the withdrawal ... I hear prosac is good for that ... Celexa just happened to be available in my case.

Your doctor will most likely scold you and what not but I mean whats done is done ... he will probably tell you to go back on a lower dose ... 75 or 150 maybe ... but really insist on something else incase the withdrawal happens ... its better to have it at hand than have to crawl in the doctor's office when you feel really bad.

Best of luck.

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by King Vultan on July 26, 2004, at 16:49:41

In reply to Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by lostCause on July 26, 2004, at 14:36:35

> So let's say you were already dumb enough to go two days "Cold Turkey" without "tapering" from 300mg's of Effexor XR/day.. and you are starting to have pretty severe reactions (like everyone else: zinging, heart palps, dizziness, confusion, etc.) do you a) jump back on it full force and then begin to taper, b) get on it half force, c) call the p-doc, or d) keep suffering in the hopes that the misery ends soon????


My choice would be d), I guess, because when I quit cold turkey from 150 mg/day of Effexor years ago, that was what I did. I was in a very debilitated state for a week but fortunately was on vacation, as I think I would have had a hard time working.

On another occasion, I did taper off but suffered withdrawal symptoms at each drop in dosage. I would guess the total amount of withdrawal symptoms added up to about what I experienced when going off it all at once; it was just spread over a longer period of time.

I'll take the experience tapering off vs. cold turkey myself. I would also add that for me, Effexor withdrawal symptoms are not the most horrible thing in the universe, particularly if the drug is tapered. I would compare it in unpleasantness to a mild/moderate case of the flu.

Todd

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by rolie12 on July 26, 2004, at 20:12:08

In reply to Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by lostCause on July 26, 2004, at 14:36:35

Well, I am a dumb one too (ha, ha) because I was taking 300 mg for about 5 1/2 months and took 150 mg the next and quit cold turkey. I never had withdrawals before so I figured it wont be too bad. WRONG! I was already getting the zaps/electrical jolt thing while on it, that's why I quit, but by Thursday morning (Wed was the last time I took a dose) I was not well. Had to leave work early and that's when the vomiting, extreme fatigue, felt very sick to my stomach started. For three days I could not keep anything down, yet I was so thirsty and hungry I would eat and then get sick. Sunday was the first day I did not get sick. I went back to work today with zaps still, but am feeling better. Will be happy when zaps are gone!

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by Camille Dumont on July 26, 2004, at 20:18:23

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by rolie12 on July 26, 2004, at 20:12:08

Isn't it horrible ... I would get so hungry I felt like puking and was dizzy ... but then I'd eat and then feel nauseaous again ... and puke, and then get hungry ... god awfull feeling.

Have you though about asking for a small dose of prozac to get you through the withdrawal ... for me the Celexa was a godsend ... it totally killed the zaps and the dizzyness.

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by rolie12 on July 26, 2004, at 20:46:56

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by Camille Dumont on July 26, 2004, at 20:18:23

I am laughing and not in a mean way, to hear I am not the only one that had the same thing. I was STARVING and so thirsty I would eat when I wasn't feeling so sick to my stomach, then puke and start the vicious cycle over again. The past two nights I started having the leg muscle spasms like if you are cold and you shake. I get up walk around, drink something and it goes away. I will be glad when it is all out of my system. Then I will be depressed and have to start a new med. LIke I said, vicious cycle! hehe

> Isn't it horrible ... I would get so hungry I felt like puking and was dizzy ... but then I'd eat and then feel nauseaous again ... and puke, and then get hungry ... god awfull feeling.
>
> Have you though about asking for a small dose of prozac to get you through the withdrawal ... for me the Celexa was a godsend ... it totally killed the zaps and the dizzyness.

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by Sad Panda on July 26, 2004, at 23:13:51

In reply to Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by lostCause on July 26, 2004, at 14:36:35

> So let's say you were already dumb enough to go two days "Cold Turkey" without "tapering" from 300mg's of Effexor XR/day.. and you are starting to have pretty severe reactions (like everyone else: zinging, heart palps, dizziness, confusion, etc.) do you a) jump back on it full force and then begin to taper, b) get on it half force, c) call the p-doc, or d) keep suffering in the hopes that the misery ends soon????
>
>

e) Get a script for Prozac, take Prozac as a substitute until your withdrawl symptoms subside & then quit Prozac which has no withdrawl symptoms for most people due to it's extremely long half life. Effexor has a very short half life.

Cheers,
Panda.


 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by podo on August 26, 2004, at 15:27:15

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by Sad Panda on July 26, 2004, at 23:13:51

I was on 225mg of Effexor for about 2 years, then weened off slowly, 225 to 150 for several months, then down to 75mg for another several months, and just finished 3 days ago. The withdrawal is awful, I can barely work, I'm so nauscious, dizzy, headaches and flu-like symptoms, I just want to sleep forever. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to get on something else, if this withdrawal only lasts another day or two or three I can deal. Does anyone know how long I should be feeling this awful, going from 75mg to 0? Thanks.

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle... podo

Posted by jjamas on August 27, 2004, at 10:00:43

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by podo on August 26, 2004, at 15:27:15

If you take the tapering a lot slower, you won't have such severe withdrawal. I was on 37.5 mg for over a year and started to taper in June. I skipped a day and had horrible withdrawal symptoms. So I took it slower. I took 37.5 and alternated it with 25 mg (its prescribed for children). Then 25 mg everyday until side effects went away. Then 25mg alternating with half of the tablet (12.5). Then 12.5 everyday. Then half of that- 6.25, then off. I haven't taken any in 3 days now and the only symptoms I have are slight headaches and very slight vertigo. Other than that, I am w/d symptom free. Good luck!

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle... podo

Posted by Cybele on August 27, 2004, at 17:04:15

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by podo on August 26, 2004, at 15:27:15

I think you should considering doing 37.5 mg for a while. It's gotta be hard going cold turkey off 75mg!

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by Camille Dumont on August 28, 2004, at 15:22:48

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle... podo, posted by Cybele on August 27, 2004, at 17:04:15

Ask your doctor for some Prozac ... it will mask the w/d.

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by Cybele on August 28, 2004, at 15:58:59

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle... podo, posted by Cybele on August 27, 2004, at 17:04:15

I've decided to get off Effexor-XR. The weight gain (10 pounds in 10 weeks) is really making me DEPRESSED and the vivid dreams leave me disoriented in the mornings. My doc said she'd give me 37.5mg samples, but I'll just try dumping out half of the contents of the gel capsules. Isn't that all the 37.5 capsules are?

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by ishy on August 29, 2004, at 17:43:30

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by Cybele on August 28, 2004, at 15:58:59

I highly suggest going to your doctor (or a new one like I did), and ask for Prozac to help you get off it. I got from 75 to 37 but got all the terrible side effects (dizziness, zings/electric shocks, headache, stomachache, etc) trying to go any lower (even slowly) than 37. Prozac has made a world of difference, but you have to take it for a mnth (I just stayed at 37 on Effexor), and then started going back down again. So worth it...

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle... ishy

Posted by Cybele on August 29, 2004, at 18:31:27

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by ishy on August 29, 2004, at 17:43:30

> I highly suggest going to your doctor (or a new one like I did), and ask for Prozac to help you get off it. I got from 75 to 37 but got all the terrible side effects (dizziness, zings/electric shocks, headache, stomachache, etc) trying to go any lower (even slowly) than 37. Prozac has made a world of difference, but you have to take it for a mnth (I just stayed at 37 on Effexor), and then started going back down again. So worth it...


How long were you on Effexor-XR 75mg?

Everyone: Are the side effects worse if you've been on it a long time versus only a few weeks or months?

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by tablasco1 on August 30, 2004, at 10:28:44

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by King Vultan on July 26, 2004, at 16:49:41

I have been experiencing withdrawal effects from Effexor XR for about 3 months now. I have had withdrawal symptoms: anxiety, dizziness, blurred vision, and now depression. I went off of Effexor (as well as Paxil and Zoloft within the past year or so) because I was having similar symptoms on the drugs. I have had much fear about what I am feeling and even though I have been through therapy, much of what I have been feeling doesn't make sense. I am thinking of starting back on Effexor once again after 3 months of withdrawal to soothe the withdrawal symptoms as well as help with my depression. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by laurie_lu on August 30, 2004, at 13:20:59

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by tablasco1 on August 30, 2004, at 10:28:44

In addition to taking Benadryl, I've stopped drinking coffee. It seems my dizziness and nausea are much less if I skip the coffee. I am beginning to think caffeine makes the symptoms worse. I saw a definate pattern of extreme nausea and dizziness 20 minutes after finishing my usual morning cup of coffee. I must say too that drinking alcohol makes the side effects 100 times worse the next day. Yesterday I also began taking St. Johns Wort as I am nearing the end of my Effexor tapering. I am hoping the SJW takes the edge off of the WD.

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...

Posted by tablasco1 on August 30, 2004, at 13:33:33

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by laurie_lu on August 30, 2004, at 13:20:59

Ironically, I was just going to grab a cup of coffee. I also felt the side effects moreso because I was drinking Sat. night at a wedding. I'm not much of a drinker, so just a few can get me drunk. I was feeling the effects of that yesterday. Good luck with the tapering. Hope the effexts are not anywhere near, or as long as mine.

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle... laurie_lu

Posted by Cybele on August 30, 2004, at 14:31:02

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by laurie_lu on August 30, 2004, at 13:20:59

> In addition to taking Benadryl, I've stopped drinking coffee. It seems my dizziness and nausea are much less if I skip the coffee. I am beginning to think caffeine makes the symptoms worse. I saw a definate pattern of extreme nausea and dizziness 20 minutes after finishing my usual morning cup of coffee. I must say too that drinking alcohol makes the side effects 100 times worse the next day. Yesterday I also began taking St. Johns Wort as I am nearing the end of my Effexor tapering. I am hoping the SJW takes the edge off of the WD.


Have you read the advice re: Prozac on Dr. Bob's "Antidepressant discontinuation reactions" page?

http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/split/Antidepressant-discontinua.html

Dr. Ivan Goldberg seems pretty sold on this. I asked my doctor for some Prozac samples in case the withdrawal are bad. You only need to take 2 or 3 doses. (My impression is they should be 24 or more hours apart, but do not have to be successive days--only when the withdrawal effects are bad.) I am also armed with Benadryl for bedtime, Excedrin in case of headaches, and Dramamine in case of nausea! I'm on day 2 of 37.5 mg after 10 weeks on 75 mg of XR, no WD effects at all yet.

The best antidepressant in the world, in my opinion, is 30-45 minutes of aerobic exercise for 5-6 days a week. I've had stress-induced depression since I was 13 (30 years ago), and regular exercise is really the only thing that works for me. Leisurely walk won't cut it; you need to break a sweat.

Ef-XR made me feel a little better, but not worth the 12 pound weight gain and constant carb cravings. Now I am going off the 'xor and ramping up my exercise to 6 days a week.


http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/split/Antidepressant-discontinua.html

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...**LINK**

Posted by bubblehead on September 2, 2004, at 21:58:07

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle..., posted by tablasco1 on August 30, 2004, at 10:28:44

Those of you that were unaware of the withdrawl troubles you were faced with may be interested in these sites: http://www.rxlist.com/rxboard/effexor.pl?#4729
http://www.rxlist.com/rxboard/effexor.pl?read=4623
http://www.petitiononline.com/effexor/petition.html

You are not alone in this terrible battle.


 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...**LINK**

Posted by Jubilee on October 6, 2004, at 2:37:23

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...**LINK**, posted by bubblehead on September 2, 2004, at 21:58:07

I think this was the thread I may have been trying to post on and started new darn thread instead!Ha.., but never the less , my post"Effexor withdrawal; You can do "is at this address and I pray it will encourage others, and I am kind of spread around. More good threads; as I have had very sucessful withdrawals after learning so much from our babble friends:
"You can Do" http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041002/msgs/398346.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble20041002/msgs/399476.html
http.........babble/20041002/msgs/398603.html
God Bless you. Jubilee

 

Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...**LINK**

Posted by dancingstar on October 6, 2004, at 21:26:01

In reply to Re: Effexor XR WDs... How To Handle...**LINK**, posted by Jubilee on October 6, 2004, at 2:37:23

Three years ago I was in my friend's brother's office. He is a family practice physician. I didn't have a doctor of my own; so I went to him for various health problems that I had, most particularly what I thought was a bad back injury but what was really probably the beginning of mild fibromyalgia. On one particular day that I was there my boyfriend and I had broken up -- yet again...and I was upset. "Dr. Wonderful" suggested taking Effexor. (I'm not really blaming him for this, there's plenty of other things I'm grumpy about in regard to my medical care, but not this.) I started taking 75mg, and somehow sooner or later, I was taking 150mg. Maybe it's not that much, I don't know. When I finally found my terrific internist, I stayed on the same dosage. Every now and then he would ask me if everything was okay with "that Effexor." I'd acknowledge that it was.

It seems that every year towards the latter part of September I either do something out of the blue or something happens to me that sets me on a course that I'm not expecting. For purposes of this board, I'll just say that I ran out of EffexorXR, and I don't know why I was so insistent about not refilling the prescription. I can speculate that originally I was irritated at a memory having to do with the way the original prescribing doctor had handled my care. Then I remembered the last time I weighed 125 pounds, my normal weight. It was about one month before I began taking EffexorXR. I remember my weight ballooning up to 151 pounds I'm 5'6," and a 25lb+ weight gain alone was enough to throw me into my version of deep depression. You see, I'm a happy person by nature. Since then, I've been surviving on between 600 and, maybe, 1200 calories a day, calories lacking in carbohydrates I might add, and I wasn't able to drag my weight back down much below 138 - 140 no matter how much exercise I did.

So, what the hey, I said to myself, let's give up this drug. Little did I know the monsters that lurk beneath the little maroon pill....

Okay, I'm going to drive you nuts here because I mix all the good and bad together in one huge stream of consciousness but here goes: No problem the first couple of days; so I didn't realize what was about to happen to me. From day three to day seven, all I can say is that I don't remember being so sick maybe ever. Today is day eight. Let me first say that nothing ever in the whole wide world will ever make me take this or any antidepressant ever again, nothing!!!!!!!!!!!! I am sick as a dog. I weigh 135 :-). We're going down. The weight is falling off. And yes, I am eating, though nothing stays down. I no longer crave anything sweet, which is interesting to me. I am happy!! Not that I wasn't, but I haven't felt this happy in ages. I can't stop throwing up, etc. My shoulders hurt, my hips hurt, my ankles hurt, my toes hurt. my fingers hurt, my eyes hurt. I don't need my reading glasses to see close up any longer. I can see better than I used to from the back of the room in my art history class. I'm exhausted because it feels as though I can't sleep for long periods of time. It's really a pain because I have so much work to do and cannot afford the downtime that feeling this bad takes. I have to run my business and I also just went back to school for design.

I only post this so that someone else might know that it is very painful for some of us to stop taking this drug, but I would never do it some other way because I want it to be gone, not lingering somewhere in my system.

I am worried about other people like me that are possibly taking it for the wrong reasons. I think that it is being prescribed predominantly by family practitioners and internists for a million and one reasons from anxiety to for weight loss to perimenopause and this could potentially be a very well -- icky situation. Yes, "icky" is as scientific as I'm willing to get. Maybe it is a good drug, I wouldn't know. Is there something in it that makes it impossible to stop taking it, kind of like the cigarette manufacturers make nicotine intentionally addictive? Are there thousands of people that should not be taking it?

Even though I am sick in a very bad flu-like way, I feel more calm without this drug, more sane, more normal, more happy, more content.

Also, and here's a good question for you scientists: I'm on 75mg of Armour thyroid that I have only begun to take in the last one and a half years. I read something on this board about the relationship between thyroid and EffexorXR.

And one more that someone asked about albeit a long time ago was the working out connection. When I began taking Effexor, I was in the very best shape of my life. I was probably in "fitness" shape. I don't do it for a living as I have a completely different business, but I am also a private trainer. Now I am having trouble even working out at all. I was getting weaker and weaker.

Ultimately, there were lots of things that made me want to find some answers, and I don't know that quitting one drug is the cure all. I was just surprised to see that other people had so many similar complaints, one might say shocked even.

At any rate, best of luck to everyone. You will make it through, I know you will!!! I will check back in and let you know when this terrible feeling is over. If anyone has any nondrug recommendations, please send them along. Also, I have an appointment with my internist tomorrow. Fortunately, he is also holistic, when necessary. I know he will give me some great withdrawal advice. He doesn't even know that I have done this yet, though he knows I can do some interesting things from time to time. I'll pass along any tips that he might have.

 

Re: Effexor Withdrawl

Posted by Gamediva2112 on July 6, 2005, at 14:21:47

In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl john, posted by BadEffects on July 7, 2002, at 13:31:21

Effexor is very expensive. I have been paying about $118 a month. My insurance only knocks off $15. About every four months I call my doc and ask if there are any "free samples" layin around. This gets me about 2-3 free months a year. She has always had plenty to provide me as the drug rep is more than happy to keep her stocked. Do this. Especially if you are going off because the sample packs include the "half dose" of 37.5 mg.

 

Watchout for extreme anger

Posted by heidi kissinger on July 22, 2005, at 21:07:32

In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl, posted by john on March 28, 1999, at 20:52:30

I want to add.....

My bro took the same drug-Effexor- Any time he forgot his meds or ran -out, he turned into a monster. My parents and I were afriad the he would severely hurt himself or others. This happened 3 times. His anger was so severe that he was throwing aroung hammers, slamming people verbally, and saying that he "can't take it anymore"- I should say almost screaming it.He was crying and screaming at the same time. The rage was like nothing I've ever seen.

His rage was so uncontrolable, we almost checked him in to the local mental health center each time. Luckily, My mom worked there, and knew how to handle mentally insane. people.

He turned into the scariest version that I have ever seen. Not himself. It's bologna to say that it's not "scientifically proven" Doctors should have to have patients sign consent forms before allowing patients to be put on these meds. There has to be a legal way to make sure that each patient knows the risks!

He is fine now. tapered off a while ago. -After he got a new doc.-However, I hope nobody has to experience this for themselves. Be responsible with your meds and take it easy. It's your brain we're talking about here.

 

Re: Sorry for Mistakes -- It's Late

Posted by Effexor13 on June 5, 2007, at 13:56:30

In reply to Sorry for Mistakes -- It's Late BobS., posted by Ron Hill on December 24, 2001, at 1:29:15

I've been on Effexor for 13 years and have experience with trying to go off it.

James makes a good point, that I would boil down to this: It's unclear exactly how antidepressants work.

The manufacturers are fairly up front about this. If you read the fine-print handout (the material that's reprinted in the PDR), it usually has a line similar to this: "The mechanism of action is unknown."

Effexor has generally helped me. I've noticed that descriptions of Effexor withdrawal vary pretty widely. For years, I would infrequently stop it, just to see what would happen. Consistently, a few days I would become very emotional. It's wasn't really bad; I would get a little teary-eyed just by watching something as harmless a cute little kitten. I'd go back on at this point, not wanting to see if it got worse.

But, what very nearly killed, was stopping during a time when several extremely "bad things" occurred simultaneously--things bad enough to bring on a powerful depression even if I never taken Effexor or any AD in my life. But the withdrawal combined with the other stuff resulted in a complete meltdown, a very serious meltdown.

I didn't get much relief until I went back on Effexor (I should note that when I stopped Effexor, I went on Paxil and later added Wellbutrin--these weren't too much help--gave 'em about a 3- to 4-month try).

I have asked my doctor whether the years of Effexor made the depression so much worse. She said it "doesn't work that way" but I have limited confidence in her knowledge, so the question for me remains unanswered. I don't think there an airtight answer. Treating depression I think is, as they say, "much art than science."


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.