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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 18:33:47
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . » Malcolm64, posted by Quintal on May 1, 2007, at 12:09:07
> >But I had a date last night, and I felt like a nervous teenager for most of the time. So the med is obviously not working (yet). When I was on Nardil about a year ago, I felt so relaxed during these social encounters, it was almost like having had 6 or 7 cocktails withtout ever being drunk. And I don't drink.
>
> Parnate is unlikely ever to have that effect Malcolm, because as willyee said, one of Nardil's metabolites increases GABA throughout the brain while Parnate decreases it and (usually at high doses) has a stimulant effect. I don't think I've seen anyone have a good response to Parnate for anxiety without adding a benzo or other GABAergic drug to it. I'd say Parnate is a drug more likely to increase anxiety than reduce it - it's probably best for unmotivated, apathetic depressives but can also be good for counteracting the apathy and sedation (and maybe depression) associated with benzos in people who are using them for anxiety.
>
> Q
I'm just curious: where are you getting this information from? B/C my doc has prescribed Parnate for exactly that reason: to reduce social anxiety. As I've said in my previous posts, he thinks that it's a more powerful MAOI than Nardil, which is why we're trying it. Nardil was wonderful, but it slowly stopped working after about four weeks after it kicked in.But what a wonderful four weeks they were!! I don't recall being so relaxed and anxiety-free in my life...EVER. Of course, what it really was was a typical MAOI hypomanic reaction. It was truly a miraculous transformation, but again it only lasted a short while.
Posted by Quintal on May 1, 2007, at 19:24:30
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 18:33:47
Although Parnate and Nardil are both MAOIs they are different drugs with different effects. MAOIs in general tend to have an activating, stimulant effect which often increases nervous tension. Think EMSAM, selegiline, moclobemide etc.
Nardil is unique in boosting GABA, and therefore being anxiolytic and calming. There are some studies re: Nardil's effect on GABA and its metabolite phenylethylidenehydrazine here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=pubmed_DocSum&db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=11754874. This is probably where the similarities to drunkenness come from - many people here have said the same thing.
I'm not sure how your pdoc is judging the power of each MAOI. Parnate is certainly a powerful drug, but probably less effective *for anxiety* as a monotherapy than Nardil for the reasons I've already explained. There's more info on the differences between Parnate and Nardil here: http://www.psychotropical.com/maois_full.shtml. This doesn't mean Parnate isn't effective for anxiety, especially in combo with a benzo, but taken as a monotherapy it has quite a different feel to Nardil.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2007, at 19:32:45
In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by willyee on May 1, 2007, at 10:35:17
Will pdoc said no too stimulating for me. Love Phillipa maybe someday.
Posted by FredPotter on May 2, 2007, at 4:35:11
In reply to Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ...., posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 1, 2007, at 3:28:41
I found to my surprise on Nardil that I was hardly taking any Xanax. Just forgot. I guess it's the GABA effect of Nardil
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 2, 2007, at 4:40:24
In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired? » willyee, posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2007, at 19:32:45
No disrespect, but some of the past things that your pdocs have suggested to you and you posted on here seem quite questionable.
Emsam does seem to give ppl a little energy boost, but every med affects everyone differently. You will never know unless you try. Ever.
Posted by willyee on May 2, 2007, at 6:57:04
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 18:33:47
> I'm just curious: where are you getting this information from? B/C my doc has prescribed Parnate for exactly that reason: to reduce social anxiety. As I've said in my previous posts, he thinks that it's a more powerful MAOI than Nardil, which is why we're trying it. Nardil was wonderful, but it slowly stopped working after about four weeks after it kicked in.Quintal stated the technical reasons perfect,or at least what we can rely on as true in the world of data sheets.Thats the chemical reasoning.
NOW i can contribute what is only a opioniated response,this from the use of the drug,and reading on it for 5 years now.
In theory and likly true depression itself is slaughter on the average persons personality,it steals you of so much,the cymbalta commercial is sly in its marketing for this reason as in there commercial they show the husband quiet at dinner,...the employee shaken at work,and other various images as this.
A strong anit depressant response can for some allow them to access there personality a bit more,sometimes too much,but the AIM i believe is for confideance,which leads to motivation,which leads to possably a smile on your face,maybe a smirk,and likly if someone doesent feel doomed and feels some form of hope then they will approach social situations more strongly,back in a corner less,and come out of a shell more.
The only anaology i can use is...
Parnate acts as if a boxer was scared cold in his corner,when working,the boxer will stand tall with confidence,and possably even motivated to head out to the fight.The fear of even loosing might not bother him,as a sense of high confidence is alive.
Nardil on the other hand will have similiar reactions,but unlike parnate where the urge is usualy to be go go go nardil the fighter might actual not see a reason to fight and instead invite his oppenaent to a beer to chat.
Here you see how both drugs impact a persons social behaviour,i just find parnate unlike nardil on its own will never provide a robust social response to where the need to interact is strong.Parnate kinda gives u the ability to be ok with being alone,or having little social interaction,just secure in knowing u can if needed.
Nardil seems to give an actual DESIRE for it as well.
Parnate however is stronger and faster,so for people on a last thread it might be a better choice for them,where as later on they can opt to switch to nardil.Nardil takes more time to settle in,and side effects usualy show before benifit,which require patieance on the person,some people might not be in a spot to deal with this.
So parnate does pack a faster,harder punch.Nardil less,but more solid when settled in.
As a doc choosing the two,id recomend parnate for the desperate grabbing straws imobile patient.This is to get them from point a to b fast.For the frustrated fed up patient,id use nardil,letting them know how crucial patiaence is with this med.
In the end,parnate with a gaba agent,or nardil possably with some sort of stimulant as needed would be a choice id have to discuss with the patient as they both come close to the same long term effect.
Posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 9:14:09
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by willyee on May 2, 2007, at 6:57:04
>The only anaology i can use is...
>
>Parnate acts as if a boxer was scared cold in his corner,when working,the boxer will stand tall with confidence,and possibly even motivated to head out to the fight.The fear of even loosing might >not bother him,as a sense of high confidence is alive.
That's pretty much what I wanted to add to my post after I'd gotten the technical stuff out of the way willyee. Yeah, Parnate can be helpful in social anxiety disorder not so much because it reduces anxiety, but because it makes you feel so speedy and confident while it works - and that's totally different to the mellow contentment of Nardil, so if you're looking for that you're unlikely to get it with Parnate - that's all I was saying in my earlier post Malcolm, not pooh-poohing the idea of Parnate for social anxiety.'High' is a good way to describe the sensation of when Parnate works. Parnate felt like coke when I was taking 80-120mg, better than coke in fact. I don't think I could have tolerated a dose so high without a hefty dose of Klonopin either, and I don't think Parnate would have worked for me at all in doses below 40mg. I think this is more or less true of most people taking it for social anxiety, so I would give up on it until you've reached a dose where you're feeling that kind of effect. For most people that's at least 40mg, usually much higher.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2007, at 19:46:27
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 9:14:09
Since I have no desire to feel high the opposite to be able to sit still I guess these meds are out for me. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 20:19:16
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2007, at 19:46:27
I think it's been explained many times before that Nardil would probably be a very good med for you Phillipa - because of the calming and anxiolytic effect it usually has, but I'm not going down the route of trying to persuade you to take it if you don't want to.
Q
Posted by Malcolm64 on May 2, 2007, at 20:30:23
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 20:19:16
> I think it's been explained many times before that Nardil would probably be a very good med for you Phillipa - because of the calming and anxiolytic effect it usually has, but I'm not going down the route of trying to persuade you to take it if you don't want to.
>
> QNot to discourage anyone here from posting, but why does Phillipa keep posting messages if she doesn't actually use or intend on using any of the meds discussed? I would think that the board is most helpful to others if the messages are being posted by people who are actually using or have experience with these meds.
It's not a criticism, just an observation.
Malcolm
Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2007, at 21:29:13
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Malcolm64 on May 2, 2007, at 20:30:23
The only meds I haven't used are MAOI's and EMSAM. Now would you use a med one just one person's opinion or would you throughly research it first which is what I am doing and will keep doing. Then I will be in a situation to make a decision whatever that may be. Love Phillipa
Posted by KayeBaby on May 2, 2007, at 23:31:09
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Malcolm64 on May 2, 2007, at 20:30:23
I can't speak for anyone but myself but I am facinated by pharmecueticals and also enjoy researching anything that catches my interest.
It has been very beneficial to me to get to know the different personalities here and how they respond to different agents. It has broadened my view of how meds work. I could not possibly have gotten this much insight from reading just studies or dry med package inserts.
I have gotten good direction here and enjoy the comraderie. Most people do not want to hear about ones day to day med details. I want to tell mine and learn about others'.
This place is a psyche-meds goldmine. Even if I became cured of everything that ails me I would still find PB facinating and would read the boards often.
I don't see why Phillipa's presence and pace of psychotrophic drug consumption (or lack thereof) to be worthy of singling out.
Take Care,
Kaye
Posted by willyee on May 3, 2007, at 9:05:50
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Malcolm64 on May 2, 2007, at 20:30:23
> > I think it's been explained many times before that Nardil would probably be a very good med for you Phillipa - because of the calming and anxiolytic effect it usually has, but I'm not going down the route of trying to persuade you to take it if you don't want to.
> >
> > Q
>
> Not to discourage anyone here from posting, but why does Phillipa keep posting messages if she doesn't actually use or intend on using any of the meds discussed? I would think that the board is most helpful to others if the messages are being posted by people who are actually using or have experience with these meds.
>
> It's not a criticism, just an observation.
>
> MalcolmI agree,and i think its very unfair that certain people almost jump on you for stating this.
The point is not that one should not post,but to consinstly post in a thread to which you cant offer any actual experiance to the question is just conterproductive for everyone.Why is it anytime someone attempts to say this,they are made to feel as if they dislike phillipa or do not want her here.This is not true and i believe getting stale.
Ill use myself for example,i know about ssris,been on them all,however i have not in a long time,more important i do not plan to,so i dont think you will ever find a post of me invovled with ssris here.
So if your not intersted in using it,why have a user open the post.
Lets not make this anything more,i just simply agree,yess her support is obviously extremly appreciated,but i also agree about her postings.
Posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2007, at 18:12:17
In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by willyee on May 3, 2007, at 9:05:50
And if I go back to psych nursing wouldn't it be helpful to have someone on board that has learned a few things about these meds and might be able to convince a pdoc that it could be a good choice for the patient? Love Phillipa ps was nationally certified for five years in psych
Posted by Anne-Margrock on May 3, 2007, at 18:55:28
In reply to Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Malcolm64 on April 30, 2007, at 13:42:41
I just want to let you know that I read this site often and I appreciate all the time and energy that Phillipa gives to this site. Please don't stop posting Phillipa you seem like such a great support and kind person. Sometimes all a person needs to know is that someone out there is listening and that is what you do.
Posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2007, at 19:41:45
In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired? Phillipa, posted by Anne-Margrock on May 3, 2007, at 18:55:28
Thank-you I sure appreciate you taking the time and energy to post this. Makes it feel worth my time and I do try. Love Phillipa ps anytime you want to talk babble is on.
Posted by KayeBaby on May 3, 2007, at 23:19:16
In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired? Phillipa » Anne-Margrock, posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2007, at 19:41:45
Is it necessary to justify ones participation here?
I don't think anyone is intentionally being unkind but, I am interested in knowing what the heart of the matter is?
Possibly it is frustration for Phillipa rather than WITH her.
I know that I commonly lose patients with people when they ponder something for what seems to me and endless amount of time.
I am decisive and downright rash as a rule so I do not relate well to what appears to me to be a state of self-inflicted limbo.
I would prefer myself to be more gracious in respecting others' method of realizing in the same way that I demand mine be.
If we are open enough to share these thoughts then I think we should just as willing to explore their origins. Otherwise what good can come of it?
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by willyee on May 4, 2007, at 11:32:26
In reply to help me understand the issue, posted by KayeBaby on May 3, 2007, at 23:19:16
STOP already,its not unclear,the poster said exactly why,one expects to post on a med board and find a answer,or some information pretaining to med.Simple as that.Social support is great,we all have,and will go out of our way for phillipa and everyone here when they are in need,it was just a statement but every single time its made its like missle are brought out,enough,its his view,theres no defense needed,hes not say dont post,hes just asking a statement,why not let for once phillipa answer the post,see if it ends with her answer,and let it be,we dont need the calvery every single time,god.
> Is it necessary to justify ones participation here?
>
> I don't think anyone is intentionally being unkind but, I am interested in knowing what the heart of the matter is?
>
> Possibly it is frustration for Phillipa rather than WITH her.
>
> I know that I commonly lose patients with people when they ponder something for what seems to me and endless amount of time.
>
> I am decisive and downright rash as a rule so I do not relate well to what appears to me to be a state of self-inflicted limbo.
>
> I would prefer myself to be more gracious in respecting others' method of realizing in the same way that I demand mine be.
>
> If we are open enough to share these thoughts then I think we should just as willing to explore their origins. Otherwise what good can come of it?
>
>
>
> Peace,
> Kaye
>
>
>
>
Posted by Quintal on May 4, 2007, at 12:27:12
In reply to Re: help me understand the issue, posted by willyee on May 4, 2007, at 11:32:26
I think the last ten posts illustrate very well the heart of the issue Malcolm and willyee were trying to address - that threads tend to go off on a tangent and this isn't very helpful or supportive to the originator of the thread.
Q
Posted by KayeBaby on May 4, 2007, at 14:46:08
In reply to Re: help me understand the issue, posted by willyee on May 4, 2007, at 11:32:26
>
> STOP already,its not unclear,the poster said exactly why,one expects to post on a med board and find a answer,or some information pretaining to med.Simple as that.I asked for further clarity. No one is not required to respond to my questions.
> Social support is great,we all have,and will go out of our way for phillipa and everyone here when they are in need,it was just a statement but every single time its made its like missle are brought outMaybe I have missed that. Has the issue of her participation been addressed many times??
I have fired no missiles.
>,enough,its his view,theres no defense >needed,hes not say dont post,I agree. He made it clear that he was not asking anyone to refrain from posting. I did not think he was being unkind. I thought he was trying to ask a tough question with some tact.
>hes just asking a statement
I'm sorry? Do you mean to say that he is ASKING a question or making a STATEMENT?
I thought he was asking a question.
Did I misunderstand?Is "asking a statement" similar to a rhetorical question?
If so, this is may be the source of my confusion.
>,why not let for once phillipa answer the >post,see if it ends with her answer,and let it be,Why not? I am not stopping her.
Maybe I am more interested in the question than I am the answer. It may be that I am addressing it in order to better understand a situation completely outside of this message board.
I am sorry if you are offended by my attempt to communicate about this particualr issue and I feel that you are ascribing to me motives that are not accurate.
>we dont need the calvery every single time,god.I am not the calvery, nor am I God. I don't know Phillipa except from reading her post and she is in no sort of danger that would require a defense from me.
If no one cares to respond further to my probing then this post will fall into the abyss and I am quite capable of living without my every curiosity satisfied.
I would like to thank you, though.
Your response has illuminated the topic for me quite well.
Appreciation,
Kaye
Posted by KayeBaby on May 4, 2007, at 15:06:48
In reply to Re: help me understand the issue, posted by Quintal on May 4, 2007, at 12:27:12
> I think the last ten posts illustrate very well the heart of the issue Malcolm and willyee were trying to address - that threads tend to go off on a tangent and this isn't very helpful or supportive to the originator of the thread.
>
> QYes. I see that this thread has veered off course and is in need of a title change at least if not moved.
But, why would a topic be raised and when it is responded to be met with such a hearty number of others who reply with demands to not broach the subject.
I think that if----- asking a statement ----- generates so many replys then that is what is called a 'hot topic' Hot topics are just what any message board needs.
I'll bet in the future should this subject come around again I will be thoroughly bored by it.
I would probably not reply to it at all so as to allow it to die a natural death.
Hot topics are one thing, but wasting bandwith is practically sinful.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by shasling on May 4, 2007, at 15:15:19
In reply to Re: help me understand the issue, posted by KayeBaby on May 4, 2007, at 15:06:48
Okay, that's twice. Make you feel better to be sarcatsic about his grammer? Smarter? What?
"PEACE" Suzie
Posted by willyee on May 4, 2007, at 16:14:15
In reply to Re: help me understand the issue » KayeBaby, posted by shasling on May 4, 2007, at 15:15:19
> Okay, that's twice. Make you feel better to be sarcatsic about his grammer? Smarter? What?
>
> "PEACE" SuzieThanks,lol i have hooked on phonics ordered so we should be seeing some major differences provided it works,they even have a money back guarentee.
More seriously i hope this thread stops as its really not doing anyone any good.
Posted by Phillipa on May 4, 2007, at 19:04:19
In reply to Re: help me understand the issue, posted by willyee on May 4, 2007, at 16:14:15
Is this not a board for learning about meds? I thought it was? With civility being number one. Each time an MAOI post is posted it brings out tons of more info and I love to learn. Do you like to teach as well as share and learn? Love Phillipa
Posted by Malcolm64 on May 4, 2007, at 19:47:20
In reply to Re: help me understand the issue, posted by Phillipa on May 4, 2007, at 19:04:19
>>Is this not a board for learning about meds? I thought it was? With civility being number one. Each time an MAOI post is posted it brings out tons of more info and I love to learn. Do you like to teach as well as share and learn? Love Phillipa?>>
Again, I really apologize if my comment came across as discouraging your contribution in any way. It's just that I read your posts and they often don't answer (or half-answer) the subjects being discussed. I often find them cryptic or undecipherable in the context of what is being discussed. Not to mention bad grammar.
And sometimes, they often don't even address the subject being discussed. Go back and read some of your own posts and you will see what we're talking about.
Neither I, nor anyone else, can stop you from contributing to this board, but it would really be helpful if instead of posting whatever thought comes to mind regardless of its relevance to the topic under discussion, you would directly answer (or attempt to answer) the question.
I think most people on here (myself included) are at their wits end in trying to find meds that work that it's no help at all to read posts that don't offer any information whatsoever.
Please don't get me wrong, I think that you have much to contribute, it's just sometime hard to figure out exactly what you're talking about.
Another thing, I think it's a bit of a strange affection to end every post the way you do with with "Love Phillipa". You cannot possibly love us, b/c we're all strangers to you (and to each other).
I apologize if this comes across as being a bit harsh. But as a regular reader of this board, these things have begun to urk me. Perhaps they don't others, in which case mine is REALLY a minority opinion. If so, then I doubly apologize.
Malcolm
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