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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by KayeBaby on April 20, 2007, at 22:33:47
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by linkadge on April 20, 2007, at 16:29:48
> Yes, I have found that SD is one of the most complete and fast acting antidepressant stategies.
>
> Sometimes it can be sustained with either lithium, 5-htp, or exercise.
>
> If I do SD alone, I ususally don't lapse for a few days.
>
> There can be are a number of profound changes in brain and limbic functioning after SD.
>
> I find it has a good effect on core sense of worthlessness or guilt.
>
> Suprisingly, SD also has a potent antiparkinson's effect, hinting at a partial dopaminergic mechanism.
>
> Not very good for psyhotic depression, as it will probably worsen it.
>
> Friday nights are probably good, or maybe Saturday.
>
> For some occupations it is more feasable than for others. As a student I find it very infeasable, but during the summer months I use it all the time.
>
> Linkadge
>
>Linkadge,
Your experience echos my own. The outstanding feature for me is socability. It's amazing.I get dingy from lack of sleep but so friendly and chatty.
One of the most disturbing changes to me in mrecent years is my withdrawal from social contact. I used to thrive on interaction and now it just wears me out. I feel drained afterward even with my favorite people. My isolation feels self-protective, some sort of unamable conservation. I really detest this aspect of my difficulties.
Thanks for the input. It helps more than you can know just to be able to relate.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by KayeBaby on April 20, 2007, at 22:40:56
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect? » KayeBaby, posted by peddidle on April 20, 2007, at 16:41:07
> I've never gone without any sleep at all, but I usually get 5 or 6 hours during the week. I've found that it actually makes my mood worse. Then I feel kind of blah when I try to catch up and get 7 or 8 hours on the weekends.
>
> I'm kind of nocturnal though-- it's not that I can't fall asleep, it's just that I can't get myself to go to bed at a reasonable time.
>
> I guess I didn't really help at all.
Actually Peddidle,
I have had this same problem. I have been taking ambien for a couple of years no and it helps but still, there is no reason for me to take it till I am ready to sleep because I will override it. I am a night owl and no matter how bad my day has been I can count on the last hours of my day being the best. Without fail this is true.It is 10:30 right now and I wrote my original post this afternoon. I feel fine right now. I was in the absolute dumps earlier today.
Too bad I come alive just as the rest of the world is ready to call it a night. This has been an huge issue for many, many years and I have yet found the answer for it.
Thanks!
Kaye
Posted by KayeBaby on April 20, 2007, at 22:43:11
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by Phillipa on April 20, 2007, at 20:21:03
Phillipa,
Strange thing is that I am a mess without at least 7-8 on a regular basis. But, it's different with occassional sleep dep. The difference between a little (too little) sleep and none at all is huge.Thanks!
kaye
Posted by linkadge on April 21, 2007, at 8:02:58
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by KayeBaby on April 20, 2007, at 22:43:11
There can be a big difference between sleep deprivation and just plain insomnia. Insomnia is usually associated with extreme dysporia to begin with. Ie. its not your decision, it just happens to you wich makes you feel out of controll. Insomnia is also associated (perhaps caused by) with anxiety. A lot of the time (for me at least) insomnia always happens on a day that I have to get up and do something significant.
Sleep deprivation can be a different. I certainly feel more in controll when I do sleep deprivation. There is less anxiety when I am choosing not to sleep vs. insomnia. Also, I can choose to do it on a night with nothing due the next day, so that lessens anxiety further.Linkadge
Posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 9:40:35
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by linkadge on April 21, 2007, at 8:02:58
If your so depressed, why stay awake all the time and extend the pain? Taking a pill is easier and more effective. I guess if your exhausted you can't obsess about depression and anxiety! Makes no sense to me............
Posted by linkadge on April 21, 2007, at 10:10:38
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 9:40:35
>I guess if your exhausted you can't obsess about >depression and anxiety! Makes no sense to >me............
No its not that simple. Doctors have known for a long time that completely depriving deeply depressed patients of one nights sleep results in rapid (but temprary) euthemiua in 60+% of patients.
There are hundreds of articles on the topic dating back to the 70's, and earlier before antidepressant drugs were introduced.
See:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.sleepdep.html
Depressed patients have pathological REM patterns beginning too early. Manic patients have the opposite, prolonged REM onset. Sometimes sleep deprivation has the ability to sort of reset (perhaps temporarily) this pathological pattern.
One problem is that as little as 1 second of REM sleep recorded on an EEG can result in complete relaspe, that is why insomnia is *not* the same thing as sleep deprivation, since even in insomnia, there is often small periods of REM sleep.Also note, that most antidepressant drugs work by reducing REM sleep, the degree of REM suprsession often correlates with clinical effect.
Bipolars often have a manic epsiode from sleep deprivation, and epileptics often have worsened seizure threshold. These are all evidences of increased synaptic excitability.
Sleep deprivation dramatically increases hippocampal levels of serotonin (albeiet temporarily), as well as increasing D2 receptor sensitivity.
So, it is not really a matter of just being so drowsy that you don't think about depression, for a number of people there is a specific and robust antidepressant effect.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 14:38:01
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect? » flmm, posted by linkadge on April 21, 2007, at 10:10:38
Whatever! If beating depression is this complicated, your doing something wrong!
Posted by linkadge on April 21, 2007, at 15:04:25
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 14:38:01
>Whatever! If beating depression is this >complicated, your doing something wrong!
Chemical antidepressants only help a fraction of patients with major depression.
There are likely many people like me who are desparate enough to try just about anything.
I wouldn't say we are doing anything wrong.
I have been on all the SSRI's, several TCA's, MAOI's, lithium, all atpicals, a few conventiaonl AP's, several anticonvulsants, several stimulants, and a host of sedatives.
If sleep deprivation helps my depression, who am I to argue!
Linkadge
Posted by Ines on April 21, 2007, at 16:51:51
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 14:38:01
Flmm, beating depression can be VERY complicated for some people. It sounds like you are one of the lucky ones, but don't dismiss other people as fools because they will try anything that might work- depression hurts that much.
Ines
Posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 16:56:11
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect? » flmm, posted by linkadge on April 21, 2007, at 15:04:25
Maybe more time away from this site and going outside,doing something positive, would be more effective then sleep deprivation. I really doubt the answers to depression will be found here.
Posted by Ines on April 21, 2007, at 17:27:06
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 16:56:11
One of the problems with depression is how lonely/ isolated it can make you feel. This site can really help with that. I'm sure it helps a lot of us cope, or else we wouldn't be here. And I feel it's a positive thing to get opinions from people with similar clinical profiles, and to offer my opinion when I think I can help. It has certainly helped me cope in the last couple of months since I joined. And you're assuming we don't spend anytime outside doing positive things, which is certainly a wrong assumption as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, to each their own opinion and you're certainly entitled to yours.
Ines
Posted by linkadge on April 21, 2007, at 18:31:08
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 16:56:11
>Maybe more time away from this site and going >outside,doing something positive, would be more >effective then sleep deprivation. I really doubt >the answers to depression will be found here.
Wow!, thats a really nasty statment. This statement is assuming that you know exactly how people are currently living their lives, and their past histories of treatment.Most people don't rely solely on this board for their mental health, they are simply using it as one available tool.
If solutions cannot be found here, I would wonder why on earth you are here.
So, I assume that you don't take medications and that you treat your depression by going outside and doing positive things?
This board is a wealth of knowledge, and I am sure that many people have gained both hope and more active treatment plans by visiting this board.
Clearly if somebody could relive their depression by going outside and doing something positive, I am sure this would come ahead of sleep deprivation in their treatment order.
I think it is wrong to assume that people are not doing everything in their power to improve their outlook.
As was mentioned before, the antidepressant effect of one night of complete sleep deprivation can sometimes last for days or weeks.
What you have against this particular statagy is beyond me and seems nonsensicle.
Linkadge
Posted by KayeBaby on April 21, 2007, at 20:32:44
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 14:38:01
> Whatever! If beating depression is this complicated, your doing something wrong!
I don't know that your questions are meant for me but, I believe I am having a spell of the blahs induced by smoking cessation complicated by PMS so there is no need for me to start a long course of medication.
Sleep deprivation has been a reliable form of relief for me in the past and while I don't expect this spell to last long it is nearly intolerable now.
Sleep deprivation is also a cheap, quick, easy, low-risk therapy for me to try.
If I could get outside, believe me, I would be there. I am an avid gardener-my poor flowers are being neglected. :(
PB makes my 'down-time' a little less lonely and I find valuable ideas here. I would not come here if it made me feel worse.
The best to you on your journey to wellness.
Kaye
Posted by ttee on April 21, 2007, at 20:43:19
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect? » flmm, posted by KayeBaby on April 21, 2007, at 20:32:44
I just got in from a 3 mile jog, outside, but as most evenings, my depression grows worse. Why? Do you think it is because I logged into PB?
Posted by KayeBaby on April 21, 2007, at 21:23:21
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by ttee on April 21, 2007, at 20:43:19
Acck! I just realized that my depression is worse in the morning when I rarely visit PB.
Does PB possess anti-depressant properties?
Hmmm....
;)
You make me smile!Kaye
Posted by flmm on April 22, 2007, at 0:28:03
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect? » ttee, posted by KayeBaby on April 21, 2007, at 21:23:21
Easy people! I only mean that a lot of people expect too much from this site and i believe constantly posting and obsessing about drugs and studies and brain chemicals blah, blah, blah, gets you nowhere!There are only so many drugs to take so take the best ones you find, and stop overanylizing every friggin thing about the brain! No matter what any of you think you know about the brain, chances are you are wrong.I am sure of that and science will prove it years from now!
Posted by KayeBaby on April 22, 2007, at 1:28:29
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 22, 2007, at 0:28:03
flmm,
The intesity of your comments seem so out of context in regards to this post. It makes me wonder what you are really upset about.
> Easy people! I only mean that a lot of people expect too much from this site
How is this relevant? What people? What is too much to expect?
>and i believe constantly posting and obsessing >about drugs and studies and brain chemicals >blah, blah, blah, gets you nowhere!No. You can only know if it gets YOU nowhere.
I'm sorry that you are frustrated.Isn't this the medications/treatment portion of the board? Maybe the Spirituality, Health or Psychology sections might suit your needs better.
>There are only so many drugs to take so take the >best ones you find, and stop overanylizing every >friggin thing about the brain!
Why do you say that we are over-analyzing? I feel that my level of analysis is healthy and appropriate. The original post was not even about meds. It was about a non-medical therapy.
What are you really upset about?
>No matter what any of you think you know about >the brain, chances are you are wrong.I am sure of that and science will prove it years from now!
You got me there! Since we cannot ever know the final, absolute answer we should just give up. What is the point? Ok
You don't believe that.Don't you hope that there is something out there that can help you to feel better. Some method, some medicine, something?
Are you just tired of being dissappointed?I understand that.
The only thing I have going for me right now is hope. I get that here.
Is it your intention to be discouraging or are you trying to entice me to argue you out of your hopelessness ?
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2007, at 8:11:48
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 22, 2007, at 0:28:03
>Easy people! I only mean that a lot of people >expect too much from this site and i believe >constantly posting and obsessing about drugs and >studies and brain chemicals blah, blah, blah, >gets you nowhere!
Well, for starters, this sort of comment could apply to any one of the many posts on this board, so why are you targetting this one, which clearly showed very little in the way of "obsessing", and "brain chemicals"?
"There are only so many drugs to take so take the best ones you find"
Oftentimes, the application of a rational approach can limit the number of medication trials needed to find the "best one".
"and stop overanylizing every friggin thing about the brain!"
When were we doing this? The only time I brought in technical stuff was when you hinted that the antidepressant effect of S.D. was B.S.
"No matter what any of you think you know about the brain, chances are you are wrong.I am sure of that and science will prove it years from now!"
Its not necessarily about being right and wrong. Obviously most people know that the purported mechanisms of these drugs are only guidelines. But, they are guidlines based upon many carefull observations.
It is the observations and patient experience with certain medications and life stategies that can really make a difference.
Should we just ignore the many reports that sleep deprivation can, for some people, dramatically improve mood? Of course not, as it is a piece of the puzzle, even though we don't know at this point exactly how it works.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2007, at 8:12:53
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect? » flmm, posted by KayeBaby on April 22, 2007, at 1:28:29
>The intesity of your comments seem so out of >context in regards to this post. It makes me >wonder what you are really upset about.
I agree. Is this a backlash to your own internal obsessing about medications and brain chemcials?
I don't get it.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on April 22, 2007, at 10:28:05
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by linkadge on April 22, 2007, at 8:12:53
I think it seemes clear to me that some people spend to much time on this site, period. Which, in my opinion, adds to depression and obsession with depression! This site is valuable on some level to discuss drug side effects etc. But there is a different degree of poster that just lives on this site! Do you think if they spent a little less time away from obsessing about depression and more about having a life, they would feel better! I do.
Posted by Ines on April 22, 2007, at 10:59:53
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 22, 2007, at 10:28:05
> I think it seemes clear to me that some people spend to much time on this site, period. Which, in my opinion, adds to depression and obsession with depression! This site is valuable on some level to discuss drug side effects etc. But there is a different degree of poster that just lives on this site! Do you think if they spent a little less time away from obsessing about depression and more about having a life, they would feel better! I do.
Hmmm... it seems to me that you're spending quite a bit of time contributing to this feed, in a manner that is not particularly constructive and is in fact aggressive towards other bloggers. How do you feel that is helpful? If it is that you are genuinely concerned that this site is unhelpful for some people who spend a lot of time on it, why not bring it up in a less antagonistic manner?
Anyway, re: sleep therapy, I've never tried it- but I do know that when I am going through a bad patch depression wise I dream constantly and have very anxious dreams- I wake up feeling tired even when I've slept 8 or 9 hours. I've reard you can significantly improve depression in a clinical setting by monitoring the patient's sleep and waking them up each them they are just going into REM sleep. I thought that was really interesting.
Ines
Posted by chiron on April 22, 2007, at 11:18:46
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by Ines on April 22, 2007, at 10:59:53
This is something I haven't tried, I think I will try it next weekend. I like the idea of a 'reset'.
Linkadge - I have always respected your posts and found you to be very wise.
KayBaby & tte - I also enjoyed your wise comments.Well I need to leave now to take a shower from my walk, and get some homework done. Yesterday I had brunch with another friend, went to a barbeque, and did a little shopping. But unfortunately, I was still miserable and wanted to die. There are many diseases that we still can't cure, and many that we haven't even discovered yet. Just as there can be diseases in your liver, so can there be disease in your brain.
Posted by chiron on April 22, 2007, at 11:53:20
In reply to Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by KayeBaby on April 20, 2007, at 15:18:24
I would assume that a regular pattern of sleep is good for mood disorders, which can be helped by Ambien. Has anyone heard of any research or had any experiences?
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2007, at 12:14:19
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 22, 2007, at 10:28:05
>I think it seemes clear to me that some people >spend to much time on this site, period.
But whats that got to do with this post? I mean, why wouldn't you just start up a new general thread saying, I think everybody here is spending too much time.
I also find it interesting that you are here to answer all of these responces, and yet you tell other people they are spending too much time here.
>Which, in my opinion, adds to depression and >obsession with depression!
But who says we are obsessing? Somebody asks a simple question, and all of a sudden they are obsessing?
>This site is valuable on some level to discuss >drug side effects etc.Thats pretty much what we were doing.
>But there is a different degree of poster that >just lives on this site! Do you think if they >spent a little less time away from obsessing >about depression and more about having a life, >they would feel better! I do.
I don't know who you are reffering to. I just got back from a 50 min jog.
Linkadge
Posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2007, at 15:38:29
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation-Antidepressant effect?, posted by flmm on April 21, 2007, at 14:38:01
> Whatever! If beating depression is this complicated, your doing something wrong!
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. You've been asked to be civil, so now I am blocking you from posting.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
Follow-ups regarding these issues should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions. Thus, you can always appeal this decision to him, and he may choose a different action.Namaste
gg acting as deputy
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