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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by chiron on April 15, 2007, at 0:38:39
I'm googling, but not getting the detailed answer I want. And I know there are a few wizs here that will know and can explan it to me.
So if someone has a depression problem, and drinks a 6 pack of Bud Light over the duration of a party, what would the implications be on his mood?
And would there be a mood effect from the tyramine problem if they were taking Emsam?
(But it did help me have fun at the party)
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 10:07:59
In reply to How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by chiron on April 15, 2007, at 0:38:39
You know I was only on a very small dose of xanax and used to drink a six pack all the time and felt great so I dont get it either. Love Phillipa ps was not in any way depressed while drinking. I was happy.
Posted by stargazer on April 15, 2007, at 11:44:37
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession? » chiron, posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 10:07:59
My brother treats his bouts of depression with a few drinks every night. I think those prone to agitated depression can do this relatively effectively for years, maybe forever. With depression that is of an agitated type, the alcohol minimizes the symptoms of agitation and excess energy which can escalate if not moderated with something that is sedative in its effects.
In sad or anergic depressions, alcohol will cause an already depressed mood to become more depressed.
I would say the mechanisms are a reduction in neuronal sensitivity and a reduction in the process of nerve stimulation/transmission.
Obviously, the scientists here will be able to explain the exact neurological/biological effects going on.
For myself, since I have the latter type of depression, my symptoms of lethargy, tearfulness, vulnerability to stress, would respond differently to alcohol. More than a few drinks would made me more depressed, with more rumination, feelings of defectiveness and introspection, etc.
Alcohol is known to depress neurological functioning so it can cause a worsening of the depressive symptoms and a reduction in the agitated symptoms. Good for some with depression terribel for others, like me.
I used to say I was allergic to alcohol because of the effects I had...Stargazer
Posted by bassman on April 15, 2007, at 12:25:50
In reply to How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by chiron on April 15, 2007, at 0:38:39
I've also looked up alcohol in terms of if it has an effect during the non-drinking time-that is, does my moderate beeer drinking expose me to a greater chance of depression during the day? I agree that alcohol works very well for agitated depression, BTW.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 15, 2007, at 12:48:45
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by bassman on April 15, 2007, at 12:25:50
I actually find that alcohol acts as an antidepressant with me. I get a mild buzz from a couple of beers, I have to say. I also get a warm feeling of relaxation/mellowness too.
Although sometimes, it can tip the other way and make things appear worse, but on the whole it lifts my mood considerably. I do tend to have just one 330ml beer perhaps on 4-5 nights/week.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Sandra62 on April 15, 2007, at 12:59:18
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 15, 2007, at 12:48:45
For me it is the day after a bout of drinking that I get depressed, paranoid, remorseful etc. When I'm drinking I'm usually relaxed, happy and have a sense of relief. I have both sad and anxious depression/bipolar. I know I'm self-medicating with alcohol. After a particular hard night of partying where I was told some things that I said and did that were embarrassing I've decided to lay off the booze. It can't be good or safe for me to mix with my medications either. My psychologist says that drinking and doing drugs cancels the effects of my meds. I'm excited about being sober and look forward to a better balance of mood overall.
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 19:11:11
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by stargazer on April 15, 2007, at 11:44:37
And that's why I was wonderful with my beer. I should have never gone off it. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 19:14:10
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by Sandra62 on April 15, 2007, at 12:59:18
This is no means meant as any type of criticism. But wonder if bipolar causes excesses of all things. You know like the spending and what not??? Just a thought. Love Phillipa
Posted by stargazer on April 15, 2007, at 22:07:35
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession? » stargazer, posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 19:11:11
There you go. You could still have been fine all these years.
How much worse is that than the search for 'the perfect med' so many of us are searching for when a beer may work just as well. Of course the docs /pharma would never admit this but who's to say it wouldn't work as well for some. Not for me but others with a certain chemical makeup.
My brother admitted he no longer gets depressed (triggered by a divorce or great stressors) since he relies on his evening beer or wine to mellow him out after stressful days. My father was the same way and worked all his life, no missed work, very successful, although he was never diagnosed with the type of depression I have.
I think many people are better off on the alcohol treatment plan if it works for them and doesn't get out of control like anything else. And more for "typical" depression, not the atypical type many here have.
Stargazer
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 22:14:28
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by stargazer on April 15, 2007, at 22:07:35
Stargazer I'd still be working and happy. I have no doubt about that. Love Phillipa
Posted by chiron on April 16, 2007, at 0:00:44
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by stargazer on April 15, 2007, at 22:07:35
Wise words.
-thx
Posted by Sebastian on April 16, 2007, at 11:57:20
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession? » chiron, posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 10:07:59
My pdoc even agrees. He doesn't suggest more than 2 a day. Drinking a lot causes depression. Plus you feel like crap.
Posted by FredPotter on April 16, 2007, at 22:01:18
In reply to Re: Alcohol is an AD for me., posted by Sebastian on April 16, 2007, at 11:57:20
Yes you have to be very careful it doesn't get out of control. I juggle with antabuse so I don't drink in the week, as I know I can go downhill fast. Of course alcohol is a CNS depressant, which doesn't mean it gives you depression. But downstream there are a lot of metabolites I would guess that aggravate depression. So the idea is for these to do their stuff while you sleep. Plus don't drink too much or it will come back and bite you in the bum. Other than that, the AD and anxiolytic effects of alcohol are fast and reliable. But don't overdo it and don't drive.
Phillipa why don't you drink anymore? You keep saying you don't but you never say why.
Fred
Posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2007, at 22:36:34
In reply to Re: Alcohol is an AD for me., posted by FredPotter on April 16, 2007, at 22:01:18
Fred I was at one time put on chloral hydrate with alchohol it's a Mickey Finn. Hence why. Plus I lost my sense of taste and smell three years ago no reason that I can find. Went to DC and Wake Forrest to two taste and smell centers and they said a virus in the nose and that is hogwash as far as I'm concerned. I loved corona and lime so much to not taste it would break my heart. Love Jan Write me later Fred. Catch me up.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 17, 2007, at 9:25:40
In reply to How does alcohol cause depession?, posted by chiron on April 15, 2007, at 0:38:39
> I'm googling, but not getting the detailed answer I want. And I know there are a few wizs here that will know and can explan it to me.
Two possible reasons. It's very complicated; what we thought was true 15 years ago isn't true at all.
Here's a decently understandable slide show about the whole thing:
http://www.rsoa.org/lectures/2_02/2_02.pdfBasically, dopamine is enhanced in the reward pathway, but there's a complex interplay going on between excitation and inhibition of virtually every neurotransmitter/neuromodulator examined.
We used to think that alcohol was an indiscriminant releaser of neurochemicals, and that the hangover was due to general depletion. Chronic drinking led to chronic depletion, and thus mood depression. In fact, alcohol tends to be a general inhibitor, with some specific exceptions. It is the variable interaction between these multiple effects that causes the variable reaction to alcohol intake.
> So if someone has a depression problem, and drinks a 6 pack of Bud Light over the duration of a party, what would the implications be on his mood?
Acutely, they might enjoy the buzz, or they might become moodier. Immediately post-withdrawal, mood depression might be more likely than in the population at large. (There is some evidence that the intermediate in alcohol metabolism, the aldehyde, inhibits metabolism of neurotransmitters, leading to self-inhibitory products that would otherwise occur at very low concentrations.) After a few days, I wouldn't expect any lasting effects, unless the process is repeated before the brain can fully recover.
The slide show kind of gets into it, but there are two types of receptors influenced by alcohol. The first type are the ion channels. Changes in ion flow have an immediate impact on brain function. That's the whole disinhibition/intoxication thingie. However, other receptors, called metabotropic receptors, are also influenced. Loosely, metabotropic means "function changing". These are the receptors that (predominantly) influence the future responses of the neuron, i.e. up-regulation, down-regulation, de novo protein synthesis, etc. via second messengers like G-proteins. Chronic alcohol use changes the brain, and thus the acute experience of alcohol changes with time, too.
What is most amazing about this drug, alcohol, is the difference in threshold dosing for the metabotropic effects to become dominant. Some people can drink regularly, and remain happy. Others should avoid alcohol like it's poison. If you drink enough, alcohol will always be depressogenic. It's how much "enough" is, that differs markedly between individuals.
I've seen people speak in this thread about using alcohol as a self-medication. I see nothing whatsoever wrong with that (except for the risk of overdoing it), but if and only if the person also monitors state of mind. People who drink a couple of drinks a day tend to be healthier than total abstainers. People who drink significantly more than that are worse off than abstainers. Statistically.
Individual differences in response to alcohol *must* be given precedence over any other data considered.
> And would there be a mood effect from the tyramine problem if they were taking Emsam?I'm not sure what you mean. Low tyramine exposure might be stimulating, mood wise, but I wouldn't go looking for this to happen. If you meant an interaction with alcohol, I don't know of one.
> (But it did help me have fun at the party)
Nothing wrong with that, IMHO.
Lar
Posted by bassman on April 17, 2007, at 9:40:28
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession? » chiron, posted by Larry Hoover on April 17, 2007, at 9:25:40
Once again, Larry shows his incredible knowledge and insight. Glad you're back, man.
Dave
Posted by ClubSoda on April 17, 2007, at 13:12:08
In reply to Re: Alcohol is an AD for me., posted by FredPotter on April 16, 2007, at 22:01:18
Alcoholism runs in the family on my father's side and depression on my mother's side. My brother and I wound up with both. His children wound up with neither. Mother Nature is a mad scientist. Since I'm an alcoholic my body reacts differently to alcohol. I put it in my body and I start the phenomenon of craving and the cycle begins. I usually felt ok while I was drinking until I got drunk then I felt rotten. The guilt, shame and remorse the next day just fueled my already depressive nature. I haven't had a drink in 6.5 years and don't miss it a bit.
Mark
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2007, at 19:43:41
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession? » chiron, posted by Larry Hoover on April 17, 2007, at 9:25:40
So I wasn't wrong my 4-6 beers a night made me feel good the next day and every day. I should have never quit . Knew my limit and never craved. Still be working now if I'd continued no doubt of that. Love Phillipa ps happy too
Posted by stargazer on April 17, 2007, at 21:14:43
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession? » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2007, at 19:43:41
Jan,
So alcohol was the best medication for you so far, is it too late to have a beer or two and see what the effects are? You may be surprised that you could actually feel better than with all this other stuff you are taking. And you would probably sleep too.I could never drink more than two myself and with some drinks (L.I. ice tea), one was enough. I always said I was allergic to alcohol because I would react so poorly to it the next day, the hangovers were so intense. I earned to refrain from having more than a few ever else I would regret it.
I think I needed medications much earlier since something biochemically was missing. When I'm on the right medication I can have a drink or two and feel fine. Alcohol on it's own is much more reactive in my body. Whatever chemical imbalence is present that impacts my depression also causes me a severe reaction to alcohol at small levels. Any ideas?
Stargazer
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2007, at 21:36:48
In reply to Alcohol reactivity at low doses?Phillipa, posted by stargazer on April 17, 2007, at 21:14:43
Stargazer yes. As my ex-father-inlaw was fine and a super achiever for many years. Amassed millions in a few or about 20years. During World War II he got an honorable discharge from the Military no one talked of it. But when dating my first husband knew he got deathly ill if he drank. Then in his 50's he experienced his first manic reaction. They were living in Florida he'd retired in his 50's as the stress of owning so much property got to him. Sold his car dealership too in CT on US I. His manic episode consisted of him chopping down all the palm trees in the yard of the house, spending money at Jai Lai and throwing it all over the floor he told the VA it was his wife that was nuts. Well they saw and he was put on lithium. He continued twice a year to go off his meds then the mania for two weeks then a dark depression for weeks at a time. Now he's 85 in an assisted facility in Florida his wife stuck by him. And he's been emotionally fine since someone makes sure he takes his meds. So could it be one of those new categories of bipolar with a baseline of depression? Just a thought. I would try drinking again if I could taste. The thought of not tasting corona and lime is more than I can bear as I loved it so much. Sometimes I think if docs would leave us be we would be better off. Well that's just a thought. Love Phillipa
Posted by stargazer on April 17, 2007, at 22:55:56
In reply to Re: Alcohol reactivity at low doses?Phillipa » stargazer, posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2007, at 21:36:48
The only way docs would let us be is if we stopped going to them or if we questioned their treatment more, which is a very prudent thing to do after seeing how many people here are so messed up with their meds.
There is to be something said for the way people lived years ago, questioning every med. Not all meds are good, some will turn a minor inconvenience into a chronic condition. I think many who are only situationally depressed try AD's and get more messed up than they were originally. But docs are quick to prescribe rather than telling someone that the meds might be too powerful or risky for their depression and the best treatment is none. Can you imagine that being said today? I doubt it. It is much easier to write a script for Prozac or Effexor and end that conversation. Most situational depressions are time limited and will resolve in a few weeks or so without any treatment. A better choice would be a therapist for this type of depression.
I think you should still try the Corona and lime, that may be enough to trigger the return of your taste. Wouldn't that be great!....
Stargazer
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2007, at 23:01:43
In reply to Re: Alcohol reactivity at low doses?Phillipa, posted by stargazer on April 17, 2007, at 22:55:56
Stargazer answer to a dream but with the benzos so high I would be afraid. I don't want to die. Love Phillipa ps I need to tell you something in private too.
Posted by nolegirl23 on April 20, 2007, at 22:04:19
In reply to Re: How does alcohol cause depession? » chiron, posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2007, at 10:07:59
> You know I was only on a very small dose of xanax and used to drink a six pack all the time and felt great so I dont get it either. Love Phillipa ps was not in any way depressed while drinking. I was happy.
I agree with the above. I am on xanax, lexapro and lamictal. Lamictal has no warning about alcohol, however lexapro and xanax do.
Because of the warning, I stick to beer and wine only (mostly wine). I feel great when I have a couple of glasses of wine; however, if I over-do it, I feel horribly depressed the next day, sometimes even days after.
My unscientific brief synopsis is that alcohol is okay, in smallish doses.
This is the end of the thread.
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