![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by TheMeanReds on March 21, 2007, at 17:55:43
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by Declan on March 21, 2007, at 16:29:29
I have learned ssris dont work for me, within the 5 years. I dont touch them anymore. So, I do know that for myself. I was only trying to say that I read posts of people who have tried alot because I have not. I didnt mean it as an insult to their minds or their decision making skills.
Posted by Declan on March 21, 2007, at 20:00:45
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds » Declan, posted by TheMeanReds on March 21, 2007, at 17:55:43
No, of course not, I understand etc etc.
This medium is so liable to produce misunderstanding.
I've never tried an SSRI myself. My chemistry is screwed up enough as it is.
Posted by Phillipa on March 21, 2007, at 20:16:53
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds » TheMeanReds, posted by Declan on March 21, 2007, at 20:00:45
Hence why I've stuck to benzos all these years and deal with the down periods with excercise. love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on March 22, 2007, at 2:23:32
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by Declan on March 21, 2007, at 16:29:29
> If you already have a screwed up chemical balance in your brain (or whatever), it can't be good for you to try one med after another.
> Liable to screw up your brain chemistry more.
> And you'll be lucky to get it right without lots of trials.
> There's lots of people who believe they have been changed permanently from the trial of a particular med.
This board period has seen some of the most negativity I have seen on the board in some time towards medications and psychiatry on part of a board that I thought was supposed to discuss at least something good about them. What is the point of even talking about them? We look forward to the next big thing, due to come in 20xx, and then complain about side effects as soon as it comes out of the pharmacy. It leaves me with more disillusion than I already have. The negativity pervades. I used to come here to discuss medications and my illness and get something out of it. Now my depression is just increased by endless posts about how medications, psychiatry, and science are utterly useless or even worse. Its 2007. We live in 2007. This is the state of things at the moment and they're by no means perfect but they're certainly better than when the aunt I never knew blew her head off. The last time I checked nobody was being injected with insulin or stabbed in the head.
Posted by stargazer on March 22, 2007, at 9:02:20
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by yxibow on March 22, 2007, at 2:23:32
Yxibow...You're right. It's not fair for my negativity to bring others down. I do not want that effect. I have to find a way to express my feelings in a less negative way. I want to present things realistically without being so negative. I will try to do this but I don't want to sugar coat either when things were not so happy.
I will try and do this so as not to discourage others from trying and we know everyones' experiences differ greatly.
SG
Posted by yxibow on March 22, 2007, at 13:31:13
In reply to No hope in more useless drugs/Negativity/yxibow, posted by stargazer on March 22, 2007, at 9:02:20
> Yxibow...You're right. It's not fair for my negativity to bring others down. I do not want that effect. I have to find a way to express my feelings in a less negative way. I want to present things realistically without being so negative. I will try to do this but I don't want to sugar coat either when things were not so happy.
>
> I will try and do this so as not to discourage others from trying and we know everyones' experiences differ greatly.
>
> SGOh gosh no -- I wasn't saying to sugar coat things, please bring out unhappiness if its there and also bring out when things do work, I also like to hear that.
I was projecting myself somewhat I guess because things are in the air a bit as of late, it was just a general feeling not directed at anyone and thats why I didnt do an "add name of previous poster".
-- tidings
Posted by stargazer on March 22, 2007, at 23:18:41
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/Negativity/yxibo » stargazer, posted by yxibow on March 22, 2007, at 13:31:13
I try and present everything as I experience it; the good, the bad and the ugly. They're all part of this process and I don't think many here have escaped seeing alot of what I've seen.
But I know my attitude has been real negative and I have to watch myself with that since I don't want to take away any hope that others have. That is too important to keep as long as you have decided that med trials are the route to go.
I'm not against med trials, I'm against trying so many things without a plan or logic behind which med to try. The process gets to be too frustrating and feels like experimentation, not science. When they work, you don't care how the med is chosen, when they don't you get cynical and angry, like I have been the past few months.
Also, some times the meds can make you angry and that recently happened.That's when you're on the 4th or 5th med and nothing has made any difference in your situation.
Let see, since last year, I have tried without any success...Marplan, Risperdal, Seroquel, Lamictal, Cymbalta...a bit of improvement with Emsam, Emsam with Provigil (dizziness), now Emsam with Abilify...I'm getting a glimmer that something may be starting to work with this combo, keep your fingers crossed for me.
Stargazer
Posted by yxibow on March 23, 2007, at 1:11:06
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/Negativity/yxibo, posted by stargazer on March 22, 2007, at 23:18:41
> I try and present everything as I experience it; the good, the bad and the ugly. They're all part of this process and I don't think many here have escaped seeing alot of what I've seen.
>
> But I know my attitude has been real negative and I have to watch myself with that since I don't want to take away any hope that others have. That is too important to keep as long as you have decided that med trials are the route to go.
Med trials are a very valuable part of treatment for a disorder I never bargained for that has made life the loneliest time I can think. Life changing OCD and dysthymia seem to pale in comparison to this. Or maybe by not fighting the loneliness and depression I've added to a disorder that doesn't fit any category and thus every medication I take is off label. There's been only one other person on this board who has had a form of my condition -- Somatiform disorder.But they're not the only part -- doing things, hard work, therapy is a valuable part of treatment too.
> I'm not against med trials, I'm against trying so many things without a plan or logic behind which med to try. The process gets to be too frustrating and feels like experimentation, not science. When they work, you don't care how the med is chosen, when they don't you get cynical and angry, like I have been the past few months.
> Also, some times the meds can make you angry and that recently happened.
>I fully understand.
> That's when you're on the 4th or 5th med and nothing has made any difference in your situation.
The trouble in a way is I'm on more than 5 meds...
But I also fully grasp this.
> Let see, since last year, I have tried without any success...Marplan, Risperdal, Seroquel, Lamictal, Cymbalta...a bit of improvement with Emsam, Emsam with Provigil (dizziness), now Emsam with Abilify...I'm getting a glimmer that something may be starting to work with this combo, keep your fingers crossed for me.
I will.
I'm getting a glimmer that something in therapy is starting to work but then things get turned upside down a bit when you try to reduce medication. Of course I want the elimination of this disorder. But if I can't, at least I want it to reduce to such a whisper that it doesn't occupy a substantial part of my life, that distractions in my vision and auditory space (this isn't psychosis) return to a noise level. And that I gain more satisfaction from life and finally become my own person and gain my nest egg and all of that, that I and everyone else here at my stage of life deserve.
> Stargazer
Posted by rvanson on March 23, 2007, at 9:34:25
In reply to No hope in more useless drugs to test on us, posted by stargazer on March 20, 2007, at 8:44:33
> One of the best meds I was on in 1994 was discontinued by Roche, who felt that Marplan could be replaced by the "newer, better" SSRI meds that had come onto the market. Well, my life went downhill and never fully came back from that point. I have tried every (almost) new drug out there since '94 and none of them worked as well as Marplan. I have lost so much time and faith in the system that I don't believe anything I am told anymore.
>
> I still think the older meds are still the best for so many of us who have long term resistent depression, which is a good number of us here. Why do you think so many are taking MAO's despite, their side effect profile?
>
> Sorry for my rant, but I am not impressed with the pharmaceutical advances in psychiatry. I don't think we are that much further along, despite the numbers of drugs that have emerged in the last 20 years. From my standpoint anyway.
>
> In my opinion, less is more. The sheer numbers of meds just make the whole process more confusing and frustrating and postpone finding an the right >answer.
I agree with you, Stargazer.For me it was 1985, when the A/D "Merital" was released, and then suddenly pulled off the shelfs after only a few months due to a rare side-effect that I never experienced. Funny, it was marketed in Europe for 8 years previously with few problems.
Nothing but a MAOI has even come close to Merital in helping with my adhedonia and now they are talking about "triple-reuptake" inhibitors by 2010?
Just more blood $$ in big pharmas' pockets and these drugs will still have lots of unreported side-effects, despite all thier slick ads.
I am no longer waiting for the "new drug" to come along.
Posted by KayeBaby on March 23, 2007, at 19:05:27
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs to test on us, posted by rvanson on March 23, 2007, at 9:34:25
My neuropsych mentioned that he took Merital until it was removed. I asked him why it was removed and he told me that it could cause a high fever and the when people would experience this rare side effect the Dr's wouldn't know what was causing it or what to do.
I said that now they would know and stop the drug. I don't recall that it was fatal or common.
I said that there are worse side effects from currently used drugs and that it didn't seem to make much sense. My Doc shrugged.He liked the drug personally.
Is it still in use in other countries?
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by stargazer on March 24, 2007, at 7:28:14
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs to test on us, posted by rvanson on March 23, 2007, at 9:34:25
Do you remember the generic (chemical)name for Merital? Just trying to refresh my memory and see if I recall it.
Thanks.SG
Posted by KayeBaby on March 24, 2007, at 16:48:42
In reply to Merital?/rvanson, posted by stargazer on March 24, 2007, at 7:28:14
> Do you remember the generic (chemical)name for Merital? Just trying to refresh my memory and see if I recall it.
> Thanks.
>
> SGNomifensine
Posted by rvanson on March 25, 2007, at 19:23:02
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs to test on us, posted by KayeBaby on March 23, 2007, at 19:05:27
> My neuropsych mentioned that he took Merital until it was removed. I asked him why it was removed and he told me that it could cause a high fever and the when people would experience this rare side effect the Dr's wouldn't know what was causing it or what to do.
>
> I said that now they would know and stop the drug. I don't recall that it was fatal or common.
> I said that there are worse side effects from currently used drugs and that it didn't seem to make much sense. My Doc shrugged.
>
> He liked the drug personally.
>
> Is it still in use in other countries?
No, it is not available anywhere, to my knowledge.A few people came down with hemolytic anemia, so died and it was decided by the hacks at the FDA to pull it off the shelves after only two months of availability here in the US.
The FDA has a lot of clout in the western world and the other countries followed in the ban on Merital even though it was in use in Europe before release in the USA.
The fatal side-effects of Merital were very rare, much more so then other drugs like the anti-pain medication, Vioxx, which was banned recently because of many more fatalities then Merital ever had.
Merital was a quite effective medication, worked quite fast and had little or no sexual side-effects (in fact it was pro-sexual for many) and was well tolerated by many who could not stay on the other tricyclic anti-depressants for long, due to anti-colinergic/anti-histamine reactions.
Needless to say, I was one of these unlucky people, who found myself S-O-L without my helpful medication, Merital.
Posted by rvanson on March 25, 2007, at 19:24:47
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs to test on us, posted by KayeBaby on March 23, 2007, at 19:05:27
> My neuropsych mentioned that he took Merital until it was removed. I asked him why it was removed and he told me that it could cause a high fever and the when people would experience this rare side effect the Dr's wouldn't know what was causing it or what to do.
>
> I said that now they would know and stop the drug. I don't recall that it was fatal or common.
> I said that there are worse side effects from currently used drugs and that it didn't seem to make much sense. My Doc shrugged.
>
> He liked the drug personally.
>
> Is it still in use in other countries?
No, it is not available anywhere, to my knowledge.A few people came down with hemolytic anemia, so died and it was decided by the hacks at the FDA to pull it off the shelves after only two months of availability here in the US.
The FDA has a lot of clout in the western world and the other countries followed in the ban on Merital even though it was in use in Europe before release in the USA.
The fatal side-effects of Merital were very rare, much more so then other drugs like the anti-pain medication, Vioxx, which was banned recently because of many more fatalities then Merital ever had.
Merital was a quite effective medication, worked quite fast and had little or no sexual side-effects (in fact it was pro-sexual for many) and was well tolerated by many who could not stay on the other tricyclic anti-depressants for long, due to anti-colinergic/anti-histamine reactions.
Needless to say, I was one of these unlucky people, who found myself S-O-L without my helpful medication, Merital.
Posted by rvanson on March 25, 2007, at 19:28:46
In reply to Merital?/rvanson, posted by stargazer on March 24, 2007, at 7:28:14
> Do you remember the generic (chemical)name for Merital? Just trying to refresh my memory and see if I recall it.
> Thanks.
>Yes, the generic name for Merital is Nomifensine.
You are welcome.
> SG
Posted by rvanson on March 25, 2007, at 19:54:31
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by yxibow on March 22, 2007, at 2:23:32
> This board period has seen some of the most negativity I have seen on the board in some time towards medications and psychiatry on part of a board that I thought was supposed to discuss at least something good about them. What is the point of even talking about them? We look forward to the next big thing, due to come in 20xx, and then complain about side effects as soon as it comes out of the pharmacy. It leaves me with more disillusion than I already have. The negativity pervades. I used to come here to discuss medications and my illness and get something out of it. Now my depression is just increased by endless posts about how medications, psychiatry, and science are utterly useless or even worse. Its 2007. We live in 2007. This is the state of things at the moment and they're by no means perfect but they're certainly better than when the aunt I never knew blew her head off. The last time I checked nobody was being injected with insulin or stabbed in the head.<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Some of us are older and wiser now. We wonder why certain medications are no longer used much (MAOI's) when it is clear that they work for many people much better then the current crop of big pharma money-maker SSRI's and SNRI'sthat are prescribed by every kind of doctor under the sun, and often not a Pdoc.
IMO, no one with severe mental illness should ever be treated by a GP or an internist with these inferior medications, and some Pdocs need to spend less time with the pretty little 30 year old pharmacutical representatives in thier cute little convertables, and more time treating patients who are sick, with whatever medications work for them, old or new.
I left my last Pdoc because 50 percent of the time I saw a big Pharma sales rep waiting in the lobby to foist another new medication on him and down his patients throats, regardless of its effectiveness or lack therof.
Its all about making $$$ and not our health in many cases these days.
No more.
Sorry to hear that you dont like what you are reading here about the medications, as sometimes it hurts to know the truth, but thats life for you.
Posted by yxibow on March 26, 2007, at 3:02:13
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by rvanson on March 25, 2007, at 19:54:31
> > This board period has seen some of the most negativity I have seen on the board in some time towards medications and psychiatry on part of a board that I thought was supposed to discuss at least something good about them. What is the point of even talking about them? We look forward to the next big thing, due to come in 20xx, and then complain about side effects as soon as it comes out of the pharmacy. It leaves me with more disillusion than I already have. The negativity pervades. I used to come here to discuss medications and my illness and get something out of it. Now my depression is just increased by endless posts about how medications, psychiatry, and science are utterly useless or even worse. Its 2007. We live in 2007. This is the state of things at the moment and they're by no means perfect but they're certainly better than when the aunt I never knew blew her head off. The last time I checked nobody was being injected with insulin or stabbed in the head.<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Some of us are older and wiser now. We wonder why certain medications are no longer used much (MAOI's) when it is clear that they work for many people much better then the current crop of big pharma money-maker SSRI's and SNRI'sthat are prescribed by every kind of doctor under the sun, and often not a Pdoc.
>
> IMO, no one with severe mental illness should ever be treated by a GP or an internist with these inferior medications, and some Pdocs need to spend less time with the pretty little 30 year old pharmacutical representatives in thier cute little convertables, and more time treating patients who are sick, with whatever medications work for them, old or new.
>
> I left my last Pdoc because 50 percent of the time I saw a big Pharma sales rep waiting in the lobby to foist another new medication on him and down his patients throats, regardless of its effectiveness or lack therof.
>
> Its all about making $$$ and not our health in many cases these days.
>
> No more.
>
> Sorry to hear that you dont like what you are reading here about the medications, as sometimes it hurts to know the truth, but thats life for you.
Yes its "life for me", whatever that means at this point.It's fine for your own sake to throw away psychiatry but don't make gross generalizations for others who are trying to repair their lives.
I feel that you, in your insinuation, don't even know or care or give a four-letter word what my life is like. For the past 5 and a half years I have been afflicted by a rare disorder that has required medication and therapy to keep me at a state that I can even control half the life around me. I can't yet work, I can't go forward in life even for the medications I do take and the therapy I receive.
I find your tone incredibly offensive, insensitive, and if you had read any of my previous posts you would have half the human decency not to post this way. I don't enjoy taking the medications that I take every day. I can't doubt you wouldn't enjoy polypharmacy. I don't but its somewhere between an inconvenient reality and a necessary evil.
My life has been turned upside down -- yes, I genetically have a lifetime of biochemical (mental) disorders like a number of people here do, if they haven't gained them by other means, but I have never been beset like this before.
So take a walk in my shoes sometime -- feel what it is like to have burning eyes and pain on bad days from a rare visual Somatiform disorder -- imagine that your mind is perfectly sane and intelligent but you can't control the fact that traffic lights appear bright at night or that you have static in your vision trying to read and maybe you'll have some compassion.
Jay
Posted by yxibow on March 26, 2007, at 8:50:44
In reply to Re: Please be courteous » rvanson, posted by yxibow on March 26, 2007, at 3:02:13
> I find your tone incredibly offensive, insensitive, and if you had read any of my previous posts you would have half the human decency not to post this way. I don't enjoy taking the medications that I take every day. I can't doubt you wouldn't enjoy polypharmacy. I don't but its somewhere between an inconvenient reality and a necessary evil.
----------------
I was advised to rephrase this, so I will just to go the extra mile, even though I used an I statement to begin with.
I feel offended by the previous message. I feel like my feelings have not been thought through with much sensitivity.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 9:26:18
In reply to Re: Please be courteous, correction » yxibow, posted by yxibow on March 26, 2007, at 8:50:44
> I feel offended by the previous message. I feel like my feelings have not been thought through with much sensitivity.
I'm sorry, but you've been asked to be civil before, so I'm going to have to block you for a week.
You might wish to read the FAQ on civility, particularly as regards to "I" statements. An I statement in this case would refer only to your own feelings and reactions, not to your feelings about someone else or someone else's post.
"I felt hurt (or angry or offended)when I read that."
would have been a fine "I" statement. It was your second statement that is not quite a statement about *you*, if that makes sense.Also, you might wish to use the notify the Administrators button without trying to respond yourself when you're feeling angry.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. He is also free to adjust block lengths as he sees fit. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 9:47:21
In reply to Blocked for a week » yxibow, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 9:26:18
Replies to the administrative aspects of this thread have been redirected to Administration.
Here is a link
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070304/msgs/744313.html
Posted by notfred on March 26, 2007, at 10:16:17
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by yxibow on March 22, 2007, at 2:23:32
"This board period has seen some of the most negativity I have seen on the board in some time towards medications and psychiatry on part of a board that I thought was supposed to discuss at least something good about them."
Right, there are discussions on other lists that at least the main board here is now strongly anti medication and psychiatry. People are not finding it supportive here, for meds, and looking elsewhere.
Posted by Honore on March 26, 2007, at 10:22:24
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by notfred on March 26, 2007, at 10:16:17
Really? I'm surprised. If that's true, I should post here more often, because I've had a very very good experience with my most recent drug combination-- even after going through some difficult and even very unpleasant earlier trials of meds.
It is difficult and discouraging sometimes, but there's also the possiblity, I hope for many more people than realize it, of finding a combination or drug that makes a substantial difference.
Honore
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 10:57:23
In reply to Re: No hope in more useless drugs/TheMean reds, posted by notfred on March 26, 2007, at 10:16:17
> "This board period has seen some of the most negativity I have seen on the board in some time towards medications and psychiatry on part of a board that I thought was supposed to discuss at least something good about them."
>
> Right, there are discussions on other lists that at least the main board here is now strongly anti medication and psychiatry. People are not finding it supportive here, for meds, and looking elsewhere.
>Given that the idea here is to not post anything that could lead other to feel accused or put down, such as not posting anything that could lead medication board posters to feel as if they were being accused of being negative or unsupportive, could you please rephrase?
I know portions of that were a quote from someone else, but Dr. Bob asks that we follow the civility guidelines even when quoting others.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
You might particulary wish to look at the section on "I" statements. For example, an I statement in this case might be
"I often feel discouraged about my medications when reading this board. I know that others have decided to look elsewhere for support in their search for a medication that works for them."
I hope you did not find the above suggestions to be offensive. It is difficult to know how much guidance to give in explaining "I" statements to people who may or may not already be completely familiar with them.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by notfred on March 26, 2007, at 11:14:10
In reply to Please rephrase » notfred, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 10:57:23
Let me rephrase:
I often feel discouraged about the negative outlook expressed here and private attacks on people who post positive reports. I know that others have decided to look elsewhere for support in their search for a medication that works for them.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 11:29:07
In reply to Re: Please rephrase, posted by notfred on March 26, 2007, at 11:14:10
> I often feel discouraged about the negative outlook expressed here and private attacks on people who post positive reports.
Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
Also, if you see or know of any private attacks on anyone on this board, please notify the administrators. I know that sometimes things happen in babblemail, and I'm not sure if it's generally known that babblemail also is covered by the civility guidelines. Any uncivil babblemails should be reported to Dr. Bob. I think there's a place at the bottom of the babblemail to do that. If you find a post uncivil, you can also use the Notify the Administrators function. I realize that many people consider this tattling, or getting someone in trouble, but unfortunately Dr. Bob is not always around and things don't always get noticed. Notifying the Administrator is a way to for posters to help avoid escalation and in general keep the board running more smoothly.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
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