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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 10, 2007, at 10:39:19
Hi all,
Been a while since I last posted on this board. I won't go into full details here, but I have borderline low testosterone, and have had a diagnosis of Dysthymia.
I'm 34 years old btw, 5'7'' 165 lbs, have had plenty of blood tests, and just had many more last week.
I'm aware that low testosterone can bring about Dysthymia, but has there been any studies showing the reverse happens too ?
Has there been any studies showing that Dysthymia alone can bring about low Testosterone ? My *main* complaint is low libido, that's been going on for 8 years now. I'm also quite anxious, which by many standard is what Dysthymia is ; much anxiety.
I'm really trying to dig up scientific evidence that Dysthymia can cause Testosterone to go down.
If any of you hold such paper or link to such paper, I'd be very grateful that you bring it to my attention.
Many thanks,
Marc
Posted by bulldog2 on March 10, 2007, at 18:34:51
In reply to Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Marc Boucher on March 10, 2007, at 10:39:19
I can't show you the studies but depressed men routinely have lower testosterone levels than non depressed men. I've had my testosterone elevated to normal levels and didn't do much for mood. Have a feeling the depression causes the testosterone to drop.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 10, 2007, at 18:37:08
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by bulldog2 on March 10, 2007, at 18:34:51
This is interesting to say the least. I suspect the same you do, but haven't found much in the way of scientific evidence yet.
Posted by notfred on March 10, 2007, at 20:58:36
In reply to Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Marc Boucher on March 10, 2007, at 10:39:19
google testosterone+depression. There are a few studies.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 10, 2007, at 22:07:06
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by notfred on March 10, 2007, at 20:58:36
There's but the link made is that Testosterone brings about depression.
What I'm after is : can dysthymia cause low T ?
Posted by notfred on March 10, 2007, at 22:41:44
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Marc Boucher on March 10, 2007, at 22:07:06
> There's but the link made is that Testosterone brings about depression.
>That is not what I get when I google those terms.
testosterone+dysthymia brings up a lot of studies, too. I would not pick nits, though, over depression or dysthymia + testosterone
Posted by jonathanupr on March 12, 2007, at 1:28:18
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by notfred on March 10, 2007, at 22:41:44
I ust did a quick google on hypothyroid and low testosterone levels, they seem to be proportional to one another. Low thyroid definitely can give way to a seemingly sad state of lethargic behavior. Been there, and am at times still there.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 12, 2007, at 9:53:43
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by jonathanupr on March 12, 2007, at 1:28:18
yes, low thyroid has been correlated to low Testosterone in many cases indeed. I'm currently investigating this possibility through proper testing.
Posted by Franz on March 12, 2007, at 17:25:27
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by jonathanupr on March 12, 2007, at 1:28:18
> I ust did a quick google on hypothyroid and low testosterone levels, they seem to be proportional to one another. Low thyroid definitely can give way to a seemingly sad state of lethargic behavior. Been there, and am at times still there.
I have some questions:* which is a "desirable" testosterone level in relation to age?. I found different reference levels.
* interesting relation of low Testosterone and Thyroid jonathanupr. From a web search I coulnīt find a causative relation.
* how efficient is a DHEA supplement to elevate T?. I read it is unpredictable
* from some articles I see it is important to test for estrogen and other hormones and not only total and free Test, but doctors tend to stick with just two.
Thanks
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 12, 2007, at 17:53:43
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Franz on March 12, 2007, at 17:25:27
>
> * which is a "desirable" testosterone level in relation to age?. I found different reference levels.
>
> * interesting relation of low Testosterone and Thyroid jonathanupr. From a web search I coulnīt find a causative relation.
>
> * how efficient is a DHEA supplement to elevate T?. I read it is unpredictable
>
> * from some articles I see it is important to test for estrogen and other hormones and not only total and free Test, but doctors tend to stick with just two.
A total Testosterone of ~650 ng/dl is the target--if at this level low libido is still present, then one needs to consider imbalances in either other hormones (thyroid, DHEA-S, SHBG etc..), cytokines, or neurotransmitters.
With regards to thyroid and T levels ;thyroid hormones most likely T3 is known to increase testicular levels of androgens, and it increases the size and amount of mitochondria everywhere in the body, thus it's large role in energy metabolism. Testosterone can also increase or decrease thyroid functions.DHEA's more easily converts to testosterone in women, than it does in men--it has the ability to convert to both testosterone or estradiol (E2)--I think this ability is direct, however if it wasn't testosterone itself can be converted to E2 through aromatase.
Some doctors know what to test for and what to look for in test results, many don't unfortunately. Total testosterone, free T, SHBG, E2, LH/FSH, IGF-1, DHEA/DHEA-s, FT3, FT4, TSH, insulin, all are important hormones to be tested for. They all affect one another in complex ways. Testosterone can raise E2, and more E2 can mean less Free T because it can increase SHBG. Insulin is a very important hormone to keep in check too, as it can in the long run be pro-inflammatory, and inflammation is tied to heart disease, cancer, atherosclerosis, as well as Alzheimer's disease (Amyloid plaques)
Posted by Franz on March 12, 2007, at 22:05:25
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Marc Boucher on March 12, 2007, at 17:53:43
> >
> > * which is a "desirable" testosterone level in relation to age?. I found different reference levels.
> >
> > * interesting relation of low Testosterone and Thyroid jonathanupr. From a web search I coulnīt find a causative relation.
> >
> > * how efficient is a DHEA supplement to elevate T?. I read it is unpredictable
> >
> > * from some articles I see it is important to test for estrogen and other hormones and not only total and free Test, but doctors tend to stick with just two.
>
>
> A total Testosterone of ~650 ng/dl is the target--if at this level low libido is still present, then one needs to consider imbalances in either other hormones (thyroid, DHEA-S, SHBG etc..), cytokines, or neurotransmitters.
>
>
> With regards to thyroid and T levels ;thyroid hormones most likely T3 is known to increase testicular levels of androgens, and it increases the size and amount of mitochondria everywhere in the body, thus it's large role in energy metabolism. Testosterone can also increase or decrease thyroid functions.
>
> DHEA's more easily converts to testosterone in women, than it does in men--it has the ability to convert to both testosterone or estradiol (E2)--I think this ability is direct, however if it wasn't testosterone itself can be converted to E2 through aromatase.
>
> Some doctors know what to test for and what to look for in test results, many don't unfortunately. Total testosterone, free T, SHBG, E2, LH/FSH, IGF-1, DHEA/DHEA-s, FT3, FT4, TSH, insulin, all are important hormones to be tested for. They all affect one another in complex ways. Testosterone can raise E2, and more E2 can mean less Free T because it can increase SHBG. Insulin is a very important hormone to keep in check too, as it can in the long run be pro-inflammatory, and inflammation is tied to heart disease, cancer, atherosclerosis, as well as Alzheimer's disease (Amyloid plaques)
>
>
Thanks for the explanation.I forgot about this: isnīt that DHT is the active hormone for sex?.
What is an adequete level of free testosterone?.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 13, 2007, at 0:03:58
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Franz on March 12, 2007, at 22:05:25
Yes DHT is known to have a major role in libido, but some researchers think that it's Testosterone that does--I pretty much think they're both right. Testosterone increases brain dopamine btw.
On free Testosterone, I cannot say from memory, cause I've recently reviewed so much info that I need to review again, but generally speaking as one retired researcher in endocrinology friend of mine told me, Mid-range is usually what you want to shoot for. This applies to pretty much all hormones.
Posted by Franz on March 13, 2007, at 3:24:21
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Marc Boucher on March 13, 2007, at 0:03:58
> Yes DHT is known to have a major role in libido, but some researchers think that it's Testosterone that does--I pretty much think they're both right. Testosterone increases brain dopamine btw.
>
> On free Testosterone, I cannot say from memory, cause I've recently reviewed so much info that I need to review again, but generally speaking as one retired researcher in endocrinology friend of mine told me, Mid-range is usually what you want to shoot for. This applies to pretty much all hormones.I see, good suggestion from your friend.
So the problem is that to increase Testosterone the only option that is proved to work is to inject testosterone right, or use a patch?. I do not know the administration methods available.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 13, 2007, at 8:37:32
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Franz on March 13, 2007, at 3:24:21
Patches, creams/gels, slow-release pellets injected in the buttocks. Usually patches and pellet are the preferred method, because they do not cause sypraphysiological spikes in total testosterone, which causes much of it to be converted to E2. Too much E2 is bad for the endothelial functions among other things.
As far as how to increase T, well, DHEA can work in some males, I've known someone for whom it's worked but that's the only one that I know of personally. Then I know that Dr. Eric Braverman says he has some success with the use of DHEA--I'm one of his patient, but haven't consulted him for months now, because he's too expensive.
Then there's the herb Eurycoma Longifolia which may increase T to some extent according to Dr. Nicholas Perricone. Zinc can lower T, but that is if you're deficient in it.
Best
Marc
Posted by Franz on March 14, 2007, at 12:27:31
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Marc Boucher on March 13, 2007, at 8:37:32
Thanks for the explanation Marc.
So, are you going to try testosterone replacemenet?. The gel seems like the best alternative to manage the dose and ease of use.
Posted by Marc Boucher on March 14, 2007, at 12:41:33
In reply to Re: Low testosterone : Dysthymia, posted by Franz on March 14, 2007, at 12:27:31
Well, for now I'm going to have a Synacthen test on Friday morning of this week to see whether the low cortisol issue lies with the pituiatry ACTH output or if it's the adrenals been worned out. This test should have been done long ago. It's important that you know that without cortisol, One will have low GH, and low Testosterone. Cortisol is an absolutely essention hormone for other hormones to work or to be in relative balance.
Then once the low cortisol issue is worked out, i'll move the the next step, which is to wait and see whether T goes up.
By the way, I've tried Eurycoma Longifolia from this source : http://www.lj100.com/
It's quite potent I must say, but there's one thing i dont like about it, whch is major ; it causes insomnia big time ! This isn't good at all. I could probably take it with magnesium to offset the effect but then, i'm mistrustful of herbs such as this one as there's no long term studies on it's safety. Better safe than sorry is my motto.
I'll also make sure that my thyroid is doing fine, cause this can lower T as well. I really want to find out what's causing the low T and I will, but I may be a few tests away though.
My energy is really good, but it's the low libido that's being my main complaint.
This is the end of the thread.
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