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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 10:20:07
I'm taking this from Kraepelin's book, Ch. X
entitled CAUSES. I would like to search
the authors, but it may be difficult.He starts with a presupposition:
"Manic-depressive insanity in the sense here
delimited is a very frequent disease. About
10 to 15 per cent. of the admissions in our
hospital belong to it. The causes of the malady
we must seek, as it appears, essentially in *morbid predisposition*."And he goes on to list various doctors with their theories about what causes it:
HEREDITARY:
Parental taint: 36%
Alcoholism: 33%
Some diseases not significant in a
hereditary role are epilepsy,
arteriosclerosis, dementia praecox.Doctors' findings:
Vogt: 22% in father, 35.2% in mother
Kolpin: 7 out of 10 children of presumed manic depressive parents were manic-depressive
Rehm: 44 chilren of 19 families with psychic degeneration in 52%
Bergamasco: in 157 patients from 59 families,
109 belonged to manic-depressive insanity
AGE:Friedmann: mild forms in attacks of excitement in young ages, only
Liebers: one case of true mania in a 5 yr. old boy
(the greatest number of cases begin in late teens and continue to early thirties)
SEX:
Kraepelin finds 70% in women and related
to sexual development, puerperium, and involusion;
in advanced age males are higher and arteriosclerosis may be significant;Peixoto: men 6.2 %, women 6.8% with women starting earlier
PERSONAL IDIOSYNCRACY:Reiss:
Temperaments-
Depressive: 64.2 depressive 8.3 manic 27.5 mixed
Manic 35.6 23.3 41.1
Irritable 45.5 24.4 30.1
Cyclothymic 35.3 11.7 53.0
EXTERNAL INFLUENCES:(Kraepelin believes that these are subordinate
in comparison to innate):Alcoholism:
In male patients 25% of malady, but Kraepelin interprets this as a result of the consequences of alcoholism;
Syphilis:
Kraepelin: 8%
Ziehen: acquired or inherited
Pilcz: coarse brain disease- 7 cases of apoplexy,
10 cases of tangible brain diseaseHoppe: cyst of the pia, brain scars
Saiz and Taubert: brain scars
Neisser: apoplexy with paralysis
Kraepelin: observed similar case to Neisser;
he also observes head injury as cause;Monkemoller: in 56 cases of periodic insanity, he found 13 cases of cranical traumata, occuring many years after the injury;
BODILY ILLNESSES:
Typhoid, erysipelas, pneumonia, stomach, ear operations, pleurisy, cholera nostras, inluenza, blood-poisoining, haemoptysis,;
CONFINEMENT:
Beginning during or after pregnancy:
- very frequent
PSYCHIC INFLUENCES:
Situations of grief, for example:
- in 49 observations of death of relative, attacks occured 24 times; after dental operation; during pregnancy, fright, loss of livelihood, loos of love, self-abortion, and many others.
Kraepelin interprets these life miseries
"The certain conclusion, which can be drawn from these and similar extremely frequent experiences, leads us to this, that we must regard all alleged injuries as possibly sparks for the discharge of individual attacks, but that the real cause of the malady must be sought in *permanent internal changes", which at least very often, perhaps always, are innate..."NATURE OF DISEASE:
("About the nature of manic-depressive insanity we are still in complete uncertainty." - K)
Theories:
Maynert: Periodic disturbances of vasomotor innervation;
Lange: Metabolic
Stegmann: Diminution of Uric Acid Excretion
Pardo: Coprology (intestinal bacteria)
Parhon and Marbe: Insufficiency of thyroid gland activity
Muratow: Endocrinological - suprarenals
Stransky: Metabolic (Basedow's disease), as well as auto-intoxication, such as alcohol and products of fatigue;
Morel and Doutrebente and Anglade and Jaquin:
- EpilepsyThalbitzer (after Helweg): diseased vasomotor paths;
--------------
Well, there you have it-- a very rough sketch of what some doctors though regarding the causes of this psychosis. Searching the works of these theories may be difficult, but rewarding in seeing the development of their ideas to the present searches.
/Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2007, at 11:41:19
In reply to Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum, posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 10:20:07
Squiggles that is quite a list.Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 11:45:13
In reply to Re: Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2007, at 11:41:19
> Squiggles that is quite a list.Love Phillipa
Too much? I just read/posted an excellent paper
by Adrian Harwood and Robin Williams on the yahoo lithium site. I notice the Carl Lange was a great influence on the late Dr. Schou, regarding uric acid elmination. It's a really good paper with a good ref. section, entitled "Lithium Metallotherapeutics"-- like a mouthful of lead, lol.Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on February 14, 2007, at 12:36:43
In reply to Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum, posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 10:20:07
>dementia praecox.
Sounds as though you're quoting a very old text there Sqiggles. I haven't heard that term used to describe Schizophrenia for a long time. I've just been looking through my mother's old psychology textbook from the 1940s though, and it seems to be much more clear-sighted and penetrating than the psychology I studied at college.
Q
Posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 12:43:52
In reply to Re: Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 14, 2007, at 12:36:43
> >dementia praecox.
>
> Sounds as though you're quoting a very old text there Sqiggles. I haven't heard that term used to describe Schizophrenia for a long time. I've just been looking through my mother's old psychology textbook from the 1940s though, and it seems to be much more clear-sighted and penetrating than the psychology I studied at college.
>
> QYup.. "Manic-Depressive Insanity and Paranoia" by Emil Kraepelin, 1856-1926.
dementia praecox = senility and as we know it now Alzheimer's, who was a student of Kraepelin's.
I like this book because it is relatively fresh during a time when scientific disoveries were not under the influence of trends.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 13:05:35
In reply to Re: Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum, posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 12:43:52
> > >dementia praecox.
> >
> > Sounds as though you're quoting a very old text there Sqiggles.
sorry, Q-- i made mistake:how could i forget? dementia praecox is
what we now call schizophrenia; praecox is Latin
for 'early', or 'heralding' or 'prodromal' -- sorry i couldn't find the precise Latin term.".. which he defined as the "sub-acute development of a peculiar simple condition of mental weakness occurring at a youthful age."
(from Wikipedia)S
Posted by Quintal on February 14, 2007, at 13:07:06
In reply to Re: Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum, posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 12:43:52
>I like this book because it is relatively fresh during a time when scientific disoveries were not under the influence of trends.
..............and political correctness. The section on homosexuality in that book speaks more clearly than all the stuff about some elusive 'Gay Gene' in the modern psychology curriculum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Kraepelin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_praecoxQ
Posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 14:57:01
In reply to Re: Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 14, 2007, at 13:07:06
but ya know, i've seen his name implicated
in many articles on Transcultural Psychiatry.
During his time and Victorian times, anthropological expeditions to exotic lands and comparisons of natives to Europeans, were 'exploration science'-- equivalent to our trips to the moon. Darwin and Havelock Ellis come to mind. But I am not so sure that Kraepelin is not more like the Critical Psychiatry School describes him-- the father of clinical, scientific psychiatry, against the alienists, against Freud, against anything non-medical in psychiatry, rather than a serious investigator of anthropology.Then again I have not examined his bibliography very well - it's all in German (dang)!
But he may have been interested in this Amazonian sport, on a day like today:-).
http://www.photovault.com/Link/Sports/Archery/show.asp?tg=SARVolume01/SARV01P04_06
Squiggles
Posted by munificentexegete on February 16, 2007, at 21:42:59
In reply to Possible causes of bipolar and its spectrum, posted by Squiggles on February 14, 2007, at 10:20:07
from its orgins to the modern day definition:
from the DSMIV...
Bipolar I Disorder
Sometimes individuals experience severe mood swings from periods of extreme depression to periods of exaggerated happiness. This is known as bipolar disorder or manic-depressive illness, an illness that involves episodes of serious mania and depression. The individual's mood usually swings from overly "high" and irritable (mania) to sad and hopeless (depression) and then back again, with periods of normal moods interspersed.
Everyone gets happy and sad in cycles every day, every week, every year, indeed life is a series fluctuations in mood from happiness to melancholia and back again. They have defined life as a disease. Every single person on the planet can be diagnosed as bipolar.
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 21:51:49
In reply to Re: DSMIV definition, posted by munificentexegete on February 16, 2007, at 21:42:59
Not me haven't been happy in years. Wish I could be. Love Phillipa
Posted by lcat10 on February 17, 2007, at 13:38:33
In reply to Re: DSMIV definition » munificentexegete, posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 21:51:49
Posted by Squiggles on February 17, 2007, at 15:08:19
In reply to Re: I'm confused here too. (nm), posted by lcat10 on February 17, 2007, at 13:38:33
What is too high a dose of K, if you are taking
another AD?Would 3mg cause hypersomnia and hyperphagia, or is
it the AD?I noticed that this started (on someone else) when
the K was raised.Drs. say it may be reaching boomer age.
I'm sure it's the K dose/and or interaction with the AD -- should i butt out? Person won't take action, sleeps all day if possible except to eat
and go to the bathroom.Would an MRI be recommended?
Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 15:43:20
In reply to Hypersomnia hyperphagia, clonazepam, posted by Squiggles on February 17, 2007, at 15:08:19
Clonazepam could do all those things. It depends on the AD she's taking. Sedating ones would exacerbate the problem while stimulating ones like Prozac and Wellbutrin might go some way to helping it. I don't see an MRI being at all helpful.
Q
Posted by Squiggles on February 17, 2007, at 15:48:02
In reply to Re: Hypersomnia hyperphagia, clonazepam » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 15:43:20
> Clonazepam could do all those things. It depends on the AD she's taking. Sedating ones would exacerbate the problem while stimulating ones like Prozac and Wellbutrin might go some way to helping it. I don't see an MRI being at all helpful.
>
> QI don't either actually-- unless there was a cerebral event that was not detected, at approximately the same time that clonazepam was raised 33% and Serzone was withdrawn (a rough 6-month period-- can't recall the exact times).
If serzone did not affect the liver, screwing up the imipramine and K metabolism, then it must the increase in K.I think a reduction in clonazepam would improve this condition. Imipramine at 300mg is absolutely necessary, to avoid severe depression. That's just my opinion.
tx for the reply
Squiggles
Posted by Greif on February 17, 2007, at 20:31:26
In reply to Re: Hypersomnia hyperphagia, clonazepam, posted by Squiggles on February 17, 2007, at 15:48:02
Dental operations? yes that is a very old text. The empirical data available now would not include 25% of BP caused by alchoholism. It is now known that BP symptoms
are being medicated by alchohol.
Posted by Squiggles on February 17, 2007, at 20:41:30
In reply to Re: Hypersomnia hyperphagia, clonazepam, posted by Greif on February 17, 2007, at 20:31:26
Is there a virus attacking threads here?
This post does not seem to follow the previous
one in subject or context.Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 18, 2007, at 10:13:28
In reply to Re: DSMIV definition, posted by munificentexegete on February 16, 2007, at 21:42:59
> from its orgins to the modern day definition:
>
> from the DSMIV...
>
> Bipolar I Disorder
>
> Sometimes individuals experience severe mood swings from periods of extreme depression to periods of exaggerated happiness. This is known as bipolar disorder or manic-depressive illness, an illness that involves episodes of serious mania and depression. The individual's mood usually swings from overly "high" and irritable (mania) to sad and hopeless (depression) and then back again, with periods of normal moods interspersed.
>
> Everyone gets happy and sad in cycles every day, every week, every year, indeed life is a series fluctuations in mood from happiness to melancholia and back again. They have defined life as a disease. Every single person on the planet can be diagnosed as bipolar.If you're going to ignore key words in the definition, then you have redefined it. The definition uses words such as: severe, extreme, exaggerated, seriously, overly. Your redefinition avoids any of those adjectives, and therefore encompasses a broader population, rendering it meaningless. The original version had a specific meaning.
Lar
Posted by munificentexegete on February 18, 2007, at 17:06:59
In reply to Re: DSMIV definition » munificentexegete, posted by Larry Hoover on February 18, 2007, at 10:13:28
> If you're going to ignore key words in the definition, then you have redefined it. The definition uses words such as: severe, extreme, exaggerated, seriously, overly. Your redefinition avoids any of those adjectives, and therefore encompasses a broader population, rendering it meaningless. The original version had a specific meaning.
hi Lar
i guess the point is, adding those words does not an objective diagnosis make; how do we distinguish a person with illness from health? everyone gets happy and sad in cycles, that is human nature, that is life itself. With severeity of such changes being determined subjectively, everyone can be diagnosed with such an illness, it is a meanlingless definition with no objective component allowing the well to be defined as ill.
Posted by laima on February 18, 2007, at 17:45:46
In reply to Re: DSMIV definition » Larry Hoover, posted by munificentexegete on February 18, 2007, at 17:06:59
You also have to consider ability to function.
>
> i guess the point is, adding those words does not an objective diagnosis make; how do we distinguish a person with illness from health? everyone gets happy and sad in cycles, that is human nature, that is life itself. With severeity of such changes being determined subjectively, everyone can be diagnosed with such an illness, it is a meanlingless definition with no objective component allowing the well to be defined as ill.
This is the end of the thread.
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