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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 83 to 107 of 135. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on January 7, 2007, at 12:02:36
In reply to Re: Patient paid to accept neuroleptic depot injec » laima, posted by Quintal on January 6, 2007, at 22:38:32
>I did eventually take it and he refused to >believe that 5mg was making me feel spaced out >and drowsy. He also thought Zyprexa would cause >no significant impairment in driving performance >even if taken in the morning.
Wow. They just believe whatever those leaflets tell them. Ask him to go home, take 10mg of zyprexa, and then see if you remember how to butter toast.
Actually I remember an article about a psychiatrist who, had a whole paradigm shift in the way she dealt drugs, after ingesting some haldol.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 7, 2007, at 12:44:09
In reply to Re: Patient paid to accept neuroleptic depot injec » Quintal, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 7:58:42
>Almost all of them found it extremely >unpleasant, and some had to be admitted to a >psych ward for treatment after receiving a >single dose. One pdoc became profoundly >suicidal.
The effects of the drug were probably compounded by a cumulative..."what have I been doing to my patients"
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 7, 2007, at 12:47:58
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 9:41:48
>I have an ambien flashlight- I suppose it's for >those times ambien's not working.
Good one!!
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 7, 2007, at 12:48:57
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by linkadge on January 7, 2007, at 12:47:58
Or maybe when you wake up at night and can't sleep. The flashlight helps you find the drugs faster.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 13:32:13
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 9:41:48
>I think a zyprexa measuring tape might be handy, too. Or a scale...
How appropriate. I'll suggest it if I see a drug rep from Lilly!
Ed
Posted by Quintal on January 7, 2007, at 15:28:46
In reply to Re: Patient paid to accept neuroleptic depot injec » Quintal, posted by linkadge on January 7, 2007, at 12:02:36
>Wow. They just believe whatever those leaflets tell them. Ask him to go home, take 10mg of zyprexa, and then see if you remember how to butter toast.
I did ask him if he would take it himself and he said he would. I also asked him if he would object to a person taking 5mg Zyprexa driving the school bus his children used and he said he would have no problem with that. I can't help but wonder if I was involved in a serious accident if the fact that I was taking Zyprexa would be brought up in court? I imagine it would - it's just too irresponsible to ignore it.
>Actually I remember an article about a psychiatrist who, had a whole paradigm shift in the way she dealt drugs, after ingesting some haldol.
That's very gratifying to hear, but not really surprising.
Q
Posted by Quintal on January 7, 2007, at 16:06:28
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens » laima, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 13:32:13
What's the most bizarre piece of promotional material anyone has seen? We've had Risperdal door jambs, Abilify cupboards, Ambien flashlights and of course the ubiquitous pens, mugs and notepads......
I've seen Xyzal clocks, Neoclarityn tissues (my GP has chronic rhinorrhea and is usually sniffling into one) and a Lustral plant pot.
Q
Posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 16:07:17
In reply to Re: Patient paid to accept neuroleptic depot injec » linkadge, posted by Quintal on January 7, 2007, at 15:28:46
>I did ask him if he would take it himself and he said he would.
........but I assume he never has!
>I also asked him if he would object to a person taking 5mg Zyprexa driving the school bus his children used and he said he would have no problem with that.
He sounds irresponsible.
Ed
Posted by Quintal on January 7, 2007, at 16:09:35
In reply to Re: Patient paid to accept neuroleptic depot injec » Quintal, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 16:07:17
>........but I assume he never has!
No, and never will either I bet........
>He sounds irresponsible.
I think he was just trying to annoy me.
Q
Posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 16:20:28
In reply to Big Pharma Bribes/Freebies/Propoganda/Brainwashing » ed_uk, posted by Quintal on January 7, 2007, at 16:06:28
I have some Zestril scissors - not that scissors are bizarre.
Ed
Posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 17:15:06
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens » linkadge, posted by linkadge on January 7, 2007, at 12:48:57
Yes! Ambien: A Night-time Lifestyle. "If Our Signature Product Doesn't Make You Sleepy: You'll Love Our Flashlight."> Or maybe when you wake up at night and can't sleep. The flashlight helps you find the drugs faster.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 17:16:27
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens » laima, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 13:32:13
Of course! Such products would be akin to the already existing Ambien Flashlight. :)
> >I think a zyprexa measuring tape might be handy, too. Or a scale...
>
> How appropriate. I'll suggest it if I see a drug rep from Lilly!
>
> Ed
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2007, at 17:18:29
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens » linkadge, posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 17:15:06
Well they also send on great vacations for using their products. When cymbalta came out I never had to pay for it. Every one left that pdocs office with a bag of cymbalta. Love Phillipa each and every month
Posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 17:26:05
In reply to Re: Big Pharma Bribes/Freebies/Propoganda/Brainwashing » Quintal, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 16:20:28
You know, I am rather surprised that psychiatrists don't "try" any drugs during their training. It wouldn't be so far-fetched for them to do so, in a controlled setting. Look how many universities give students all kinds of drugs in experiments in controled settings. Seems to me it's very hard to describe a drug experience acurately enough that the other person comprehends exactly what that consciousness felt like. Of course, I could imagine someone arguing back that the drug would affect a "healthy" person differently. Kind of like that tiredish old debate about if anti-depressents do anything beneficial for a nondepressed person, if ADD drugs offer any benefit to a non-ADD person, etc. I can just picture a group of psychiatrists deducing zyprexa made them feel weird because they are not psychotic. I read an article once about a drug expo where one of the companies built some kind of "schizophrenia tank" that psychiatrists could enter to "experience what the world is like for patients". I'm sure it was very dramatic-I remember reading that it was full of flashing lights and noises. The point was that the drug therapy with the sponsored product was very desperately urgent. However- no one seemed to address whether or not the tank was an accurate portrayal of anyone's experience, or exactly how the drug fit in.
Posted by notfred on January 7, 2007, at 17:27:38
In reply to Big Pharma Bribes/Freebies/Propoganda/Brainwashing » ed_uk, posted by Quintal on January 7, 2007, at 16:06:28
> What's the most bizarre piece of promotional material anyone has seen? We've had Risperdal door jambs, Abilify cupboards, Ambien flashlights and of course the ubiquitous pens, mugs and notepads......
>
Well I would not single out Big Pharma; most large
product manufactures have lots of promo goods.
I have the same promo product with different brand
names (same pens and paper branded by Cisco and Juniper).And then there are all to Joe Camel products.
Posted by notfred on January 7, 2007, at 17:32:08
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2007, at 17:18:29
"When cymbalta came out I never had to pay for it. Every one left that pdocs office with a bag of cymbalta. Love Phillipa each and every month"
This would be a good thing. My pdoc gave me at least $1,000 worth of Lunestra to tide me over till my I beat down my insurance to make them pay for it.Generally if start a new med I start with a weeks worth of samples. It helps to figure out the dose
and if I can tolerate a med prior to filling (and paying for) a script.
Posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 17:52:51
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by notfred on January 7, 2007, at 17:32:08
Lots of products have freebies- of course. Some things, like a zyprexa pen or an ambien flashlight, are not much more than funny clues that a sales rep likely passed through the office. Drug samples are different- they are the product itself. It makes sense to try a sample to see if the med agrees with a person, and so forth. It's great when doctors help out their patients who lack insurance by giving them a supply of the samples. But I hope none of my doctors are choosing meds for me based upon trying to reach their prescription quota for a free vacation! Or based upon a rosy and inaccurate sales pitch. Joe Camel is just as problematic. We're talking about people injesting powerful substances which affect their health- and in the case of pharmaceuticals, putting a lot of trust into their doctors to choose precisely and unbiasedly what would be most appropriate- not what's hottest or has the best rewards for the doctor him or herself.
Posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 18:06:25
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 17:52:51
Hi Laima
The problem with samples is that people often end up starting treatment with a highly expensive new drug (which may eventually prove difficult to afford) when they might respond equally well to a much less expensive drug. An example is people starting on Effexor XR instead of generic fluoxetine. I've always found the whole concept of samples rather amusing (we don't have them in England). I can just imagine doctors opening drawers packed with shiny new meds.
Pharm reps in the UK are not like they used to be. They hardly ever bring nice gifts anymore because the government restricts these activities.
Ed
Posted by med_empowered on January 7, 2007, at 18:11:53
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens » laima, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 18:06:25
can docs still get vacations for rx-ing enough of something? I was hoping that practice had stopped.
Samples are pretty crazy...docs have samples for **everything**. I remember once I said no to some Symbyax samples; my doc gave me a puzzled look and walked off for a second, and then came back with a bag full of Tofranil-PM samples. Tofranil-PM?!?
Another time, my shrink wanted me to try depakote ER--so she gave me a stock bottle, just like they'd have in the back of the pharmacy.
Posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 18:30:09
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens » laima, posted by ed_uk on January 7, 2007, at 18:06:25
It's true- I think of doctors giving their needier patients supplies of drugs to be the silver lining of the heavy marketing efforts of the drug companies. I am quite sure that the companies do not like this practice- I don't think that's why they load up the doctors with the samples. Most of the samples I've seen come with some kind of "Welcome to your new medication! Don't forget to take your script to the pharmacy on time every month! The drug only works for as long as you take it, and your condition is chronic!" literature or insert. However, it dawned on me that having such a supply around may very well be the deciding factor when a doctor is choosing a medication for a patient. And like you say, a good way to get the patient interested in starting the most expensive new drug right away- how many of us here in the US got Emsam sample boxes? And the prescription then, for those without adequate insurance- whoops- is about 500$ per month. I mean, I believe if the expensive drug is the one that works for someone- that's great, and it's great that the patient was able to experiment with a sample before investing. But if something cheaper works just as well or better- why not consider?Fortunately, the American Medical Association denounced many of the drug marketing practices last year, and I thought I heard that regulations may change to prohibit the most extreme doctor perks.
> Hi Laima
>
> The problem with samples is that people often end up starting treatment with a highly expensive new drug (which may eventually prove difficult to afford) when they might respond equally well to a much less expensive drug. An example is people starting on Effexor XR instead of generic fluoxetine. I've always found the whole concept of samples rather amusing (we don't have them in England). I can just imagine doctors opening drawers packed with shiny new meds.
>
> Pharm reps in the UK are not like they used to be. They hardly ever bring nice gifts anymore because the government restricts these activities.
>
> Ed
>
>
Posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 18:43:44
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by med_empowered on January 7, 2007, at 18:11:53
Not sure about the vacations- I too remember reading that the practice would be stopped, but don't know if that's in effect yet or not. Doctors also get to discuss the meds over lunch with the company, social outings with the company to golf courses--all kinds of stuff. "Business lunch". I wonder where they will draw the line? Didn't the govt or some officials somewhere come up with a proposed monetary cap for the perks just recently? 25$ sounds familiar- I can't remember for sure. Did this pass during the Bush era, or did I dream it up?
But the marketers are sly- I went to a gastroenterologist after lamictal messed with my rather sensitive stomache, and she had a prevacid prescription pad. All she had to do was write my name on it and sign it (with a Prevacid pen). So easy! There was a poster from Prevacid showing the throat and stomache and their ailments on the wall. She sent me out the door with a couple Prevacid goody-bags, and I never filled the prescription. Besides the Prevacid pills, there were Prevacid lozenges in it, along with an advert letting me know I had a choice of flavours: orange or strawberry. My stomache is fine now. But ah- what about Protonix, Nexium, the rest? I always wondered if she ever got a patient who was not a good candidate for Prevacid.
> can docs still get vacations for rx-ing enough of something? I was hoping that practice had stopped.
>
> Samples are pretty crazy...docs have samples for **everything**. I remember once I said no to some Symbyax samples; my doc gave me a puzzled look and walked off for a second, and then came back with a bag full of Tofranil-PM samples. Tofranil-PM?!?
>
> Another time, my shrink wanted me to try depakote ER--so she gave me a stock bottle, just like they'd have in the back of the pharmacy.
Posted by notfred on January 7, 2007, at 19:04:10
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 17:52:51
"We're talking about people injesting powerful substances which affect their health- and in the case of pharmaceuticals, putting a lot of trust into their doctors to choose precisely and unbiasedly what would be most appropriate- not what's hottest or has the best rewards for the doctor him or herself."
Kinda hard, too, when the majority of drug research is funded via big pharma. OTH my HMO makes sure I can't take almost anything new, so I find this argument pointless. If a doc wrote more scripts just to get a perk, then the problem is with the doc.I think the real issue is research. How can it become unbiased ? Arguing about perks seems like one is missing the big issue and concentrating
on after effects. All these issues mentioned here come way after the drug is researched and developed. In a biased manner.
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2007, at 19:20:09
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by laima on January 7, 2007, at 18:30:09
Let's see I have two boxes of 6mg EMSAM packets, lexapro samples, a bag of boxes of seroquel, multiple sinus meds although I have no sinus problems,zoloft, lamictal 2 starter packs and many more. Now if I ever need a med I have most of them free. Just at the endos office and there is one day a week that all the drug reps are there to see the docs. I was talking to a couple and they were willing at that moment to give me samples on their own of osteoporosis meds as I said I had it. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2007, at 19:24:28
In reply to Re: zyprexa pens, posted by notfred on January 7, 2007, at 19:04:10
Let me add that my pdoc also offered me any med I wanted as the expiration dates of the samples were about up and then they have to throw them away or however they dispose of them. And if they had to give them back to the rep wouldn't look like they were doing their job. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2007, at 19:25:40
In reply to Re: Big Pharma Bribes/Freebies/Propoganda/Brainwas, posted by notfred on January 7, 2007, at 17:27:38
Oh I forgot the coupons for lunesta samples of it and coupons for trileptal. Love Phillipa
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