![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 9:35:31
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug » linkadge, posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 21:35:24
>Schizophrenia is more than a temporary alteration of biochemical functioning.
>How do you know?
Well a temporary alteration in brain functioning is by definition a state which is only temporary. Schizophrenia is not a temporary disorder. Cocaine can make people high like a manic episode, but this is not bipolar disorder.
>There are real structural differences between >the brains of healthy people. Few cases of >schizophrenia have ever been conclusively linked >to pathological brain structure.I guess it is hard to link a substance to a disease, when the underlying cause of the disease is not understood. I'm not saying its impossable for marajuanna to cause schizophrenia, I am just saying that it is possalbe that false associations could be made. If marajuanna were shrinking the hippocampus, for instance, I would say that could be a risk factor for mood disorders. I just think there needs to be a little more proof than: "here's a bunch of people with schizophrenia, and see...they smoke pot"
>How can you tell the difference? I was using the >word stoned as a general adjective for marijuana >intoxication.
Well, a number of people believe it is possable. Just as it is possable to use stimulants theraputically for ADHD without getting high.
I took two puffs one night, and found that it helped me sleep. This was much less than I needed to get high. It didn't make me high, it just helped me sleep, killed GI problems etc.
>I have had residual effects from prescription drugs. For instance, lithium + SSRI's was very trippy. I thought the railway crossing barriers were swords of giant soldiers.
>That sounds like a 'seeing as' hallucination, or >delusion? I was alarmed to read in my dothiepin >patient information leaflet of the risk that it >could "precipitate schizophrenia". Many OTC >cough and cold remedies containing >diphenhydramine and dextromethorphan carry a >similar risk so this isn't just 'War on Drugs' >propaganda. Marijuana does trigger psychotic >episodes in some people - I think that's a >better way of describing what happens to those >unfortunate people rather than 'causing >schizophrenia'.
I think we are in agreement.
My older brother, for instance, is a walking timebomb. He shows all the symptoms of developing a mood disorder in the future. He is at high risk, both genetically, and environmentally. If he smoked marajuanna and became psychotic the untrained eye would blame it on the marajuanna, but our family knows that this would just be the straw that broke the cammmel's back, so to speak.
>Thats kinda why I encourage the medicinal use of it. At least people know then what they are getting>I agree, but even then some people have had >psychotic reactions to nabilone and medical >grade marijuana. The only drug that I have ever >had full blown hallucinations with though is >Ambien - I saw little elves dancing around a >maypole on my quilt cover.
Wow, how about that.
I guess what I am really trying to say is that I don't think that the investigation of marajuanna as a medicine should cease based on such reactions.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 9:55:31
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug, posted by Simcha on December 28, 2006, at 23:55:50
My main symptoms are, anhedonia, insomnia, loss of appetite, sensitivity to pain, etc. (I loose a deal of weight) (-20 pounds off a 130 pound frame is no good)
A leading doctor would likely prescribe something like effexor. Well effexor gave me heart palpitions and I could only sleep a few hours on it. It also made me loose MORE weight, and didn't help my depression much.
So a doctor prescribes zyprexa to combat insomnia, and thats great, but then I wake up feeling worthless, and anhedonia is terrable.
And then bla bla, more drugs to combat this side effect or that side effect, and before I know it I'm on 10 drugs and I feel worse than when I started.Certain skills I found were worsened by marajuanna, but other skills were enhanced. My language skills sucked, but my math skills were fine. Music playing was actually better too.
Some people do great on prescription AD's. I don't fall into that category.Linkadge
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 29, 2006, at 10:05:59
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug, posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 9:52:36
Ye, cannabis makes me terribly agitated. It's probably an interaction with one of my 6(!) psychoactive medications, as there were times when I've taken different drugs and cannabis was non-issue.
I know one high expert of addictions, probably one of the leading ones anywhere, who claims (beyond other things) that cannabis is mostly placebo!
J
> All the power to the movement.
>
> I wish my doctor would believe me about such things so I wouldn't be forced to take seroquel the next day which makes me feel like sh*t.
>
> I might gain some weight instead of loosing it.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:32:24
In reply to Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative » blueberry1, posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 18:55:23
What does marijuana do mixed with various psychiatric medications? Anyone know any particulars?
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:33:46
In reply to Re: Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:32:24
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 12:50:00
In reply to Re: Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:32:24
Marijuana interacts badly with TCAs to cause dry mouth and tachycardia, probably because of their anticholinergic effects.
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=865
I took it with Parnate and had no problems, but impurities are obviously a concern when mixing it with MAOIs.
Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 13:15:54
In reply to Re: Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative » laima, posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 12:50:00
Really? No problems with parnate? I had a little when I first started selegeline, and I thought I narrowly skirted a disaster.
Weird and alarming reaction-- later I thought pot might count as an opiate. Thank god I had JUST started selegeline, so it was only a 5mg dose. The experience cured me of any further "maybe I'll just smoke a little again this once" ideas.
> Marijuana interacts badly with TCAs to cause dry mouth and tachycardia, probably because of their anticholinergic effects.
>
> http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=865
>
> I took it with Parnate and had no problems, but impurities are obviously a concern when mixing it with MAOIs.
>
> Q
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 14:03:22
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 13:15:54
I was under the impression that marajuanna had some monoamine oxidase inhibiting effects.
I can't recomend combining it with other medications. I tried it with celexa, and the two made me kindof irritable.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 14:51:21
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 13:15:54
>Really? No problems with parnate?
Yes, really - no problems with Parnate.
>I had a little when I first started selegeline, and I thought I narrowly skirted a disaster.
Perhaps you did, or maybe that weird reaction was a panic attack triggered due to heightened anxiety at the beginning of treatment? I also smoked marijuana while taking oral selegiline tablets at the 5mg dose now you mention it and had no problems. I tried selegiline again in September this year for about a week and smoked marijuana during that time. I don't remember noticing any difference in my response.
>Weird and alarming reaction-- later I thought pot might count as an opiate.
What exactly was the nature of this reaction - can you describe it? Pot does not count as an opiate unless of course your supply was contaminated with something.
>Thank god I had JUST started selegeline, so it was only a 5mg dose. The experience cured me of any further "maybe I'll just smoke a little again this once" ideas.
I'd be happy to smoke marijuana with any MAOI - unless it had strong anticholinergic effects - after my positive experiences with Parnate and selegiline. Again, I can only suggest you suffered a panic attack unless you experienced hallucinations or something of that nature? It's also possible your source was contaminated with other substances that interact with MAOIs. You are wise to lay off the pot if that is your reaction to it though.
Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 15:43:19
In reply to Re: Marijuana » laima, posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 14:51:21
Seriously, I tried to look up online if there were any warnings about combining pot with selegeline, but came up with nothing. I wasn't exactly an inexperienced smoker either, I'm afraid. And this reaction was the one and only I ever had like it- and I seemed to be the only person to get the reaction. Basically extreme headache (like a vice around temples), hard to breathe, heart rate all over the place, and paranoia over what was going on. (And pretty stoned on top of it.) This lasted a good 8-10 hours at least. So perhaps a seratonin crisis? That's my best guess. I can't imagine how this combination could have caused a hypertensive crisis. I even remember asking someone if they didn't think there was speed in this pot, but they didn't think so at all. I'm not definately so sure, though. Maybe PCP in there? I've been suspicious that the pot in my part of the country (middle of USA) isn't quite so pure as what was going around when I lived on the West Coast. It's not the same.
I used to smoke a lot when I used prozac, no bad reactions, no anxiety with it, ever.
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:04:41
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 15:43:19
It could have been dopaminergic overload. Selegeline may have been potentiating THC like it can potentiate nicotine etc.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:06:03
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 14:03:22
> I was under the impression that marajuanna had some monoamine oxidase inhibiting effects.
How much so? Subtle, I imagine. Not enough to propogate any rumours about avoiding pizza while smoking.
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 16:18:05
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 15:43:19
Sounds more like a mild hypertensive crisis, but I don't see how marijuana alone could do that - it's much more likely that your source was contaminated. I actually asked my own supplier if the pot he gave me contained speed after I had a headache starting a new batch, but I sometimes have that reaction to marijuana anyway and my blood pressure was normal when I tested it (I have a self-inflating cuff at home).
It does seem likely that your pot was contaminated - it's not a risk with pure marijuana but contamination is an inherent risk with street drugs. I guess the moral of the story is not to smoke pot while on an MAOI unless you've grown it yourself or seen it harvested.
Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:39:28
In reply to Re: Marijuana and MAOIs » laima, posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 16:18:05
You think it sounds more like hypertensive crisis? Maybe...it just doesn't make much sense, especially since that was such a small amount of selegeline. But I think it's likely true, that pot was adulterated with something. Especially since you report no problems mixing either selegeline or parnate with it. Very interesting.> Sounds more like a mild hypertensive crisis, but I don't see how marijuana alone could do that - it's much more likely that your source was contaminated. I actually asked my own supplier if the pot he gave me contained speed after I had a headache starting a new batch, but I sometimes have that reaction to marijuana anyway and my blood pressure was normal when I tested it (I have a self-inflating cuff at home).
>
> It does seem likely that your pot was contaminated - it's not a risk with pure marijuana but contamination is an inherent risk with street drugs. I guess the moral of the story is not to smoke pot while on an MAOI unless you've grown it yourself or seen it harvested.
>
> Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:43:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:04:41
What is a dopaminergic overload? Is it a dopamine crisis (as opposed to seratonin crisis)? Yes, I get the impression that selegeline can exasperate the effects of other substances. Whatever happened, I'm not eager to repeat the experiment in order to find out.
> It could have been dopaminergic overload. Selegeline may have been potentiating THC like it can potentiate nicotine etc.
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:51:50
In reply to Re: Marijuana » linkadge, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:06:03
I don't know, I guess it also depends on the nature of the inhibition. For instance, regular coffee drinkers actually show reduced monoamine oxidase function ~50%, on account of the beta carboline content of coffee, but need not worry about dietary restrictions.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:57:36
In reply to Re: Marijuana » linkadge, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:43:38
I don't think its a mediacal term....dopamine overload :) More that selegeline will prolong the biological activity of dopamine in the brain, so drugs like marajuanna which release dopamine in certain areas would be potentiated by selegeline.
Just like how selegiline can enhance the activity of l-dopa, and perhaps accordingly enhance the risk of psychological side effects.
I had a worse experience with marajuanna and zoloft, than with marajuanna and celexa. Zoloft is a mild dopamine reuptake inhibitor, wherase celexa is more selective. That may have been a factor.
Linkadge
Posted by blueberry1 on December 29, 2006, at 18:50:07
In reply to Marijuana, the Anti-Drug, posted by notfred on December 28, 2006, at 4:48:07
I've heard smoking scullcap is close to marijuana. I've heard scullcap is even used to help wean people off of opiates? I wonder, what are the closest alternatives to marijuana, if someone were seeking that relaxed feel just fine kind of feeling.
It's odd that as I look back, all the awards I won at work for being a high acheiver, all the interest I took in life and family, all the great songs I wrote on guitar, everything, was when I used marijuana on a daily basis. Admittedly I abused it on weekends and smoked more than I should have. But during the week I took puffs very much like doses of prescription medicine, very measured and purposeful. If I could figure out an inexpensive legal reliable substitute, that would be pretty cool.
So far the only thing I have heard of is scullcap from the health food store. Any other ideas?
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 19:05:30
In reply to Re: Marijuana. What's the Best Legal Alternative?, posted by blueberry1 on December 29, 2006, at 18:50:07
You don't mean taking skullcap capsules apart and smoking the powder, do you? Or do some stores sell the entire herb for tea or something?
> I've heard smoking scullcap is close to marijuana. I've heard scullcap is even used to help wean people off of opiates? I wonder, what are the closest alternatives to marijuana, if someone were seeking that relaxed feel just fine kind of feeling.
>
> It's odd that as I look back, all the awards I won at work for being a high acheiver, all the interest I took in life and family, all the great songs I wrote on guitar, everything, was when I used marijuana on a daily basis. Admittedly I abused it on weekends and smoked more than I should have. But during the week I took puffs very much like doses of prescription medicine, very measured and purposeful. If I could figure out an inexpensive legal reliable substitute, that would be pretty cool.
>
> So far the only thing I have heard of is scullcap from the health food store. Any other ideas?
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 19:10:44
In reply to Re: Marijuana. What's the Best Legal Alternative? » blueberry1, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 19:05:30
I am following the progress of URB-597, a so called, "cannabanoid reuptake inhibitor", in the pipelines for anxiety/depression etc.
Linkadge
Posted by TenMan on December 29, 2006, at 19:14:56
In reply to Re: Marijuana. What's the Best Legal Alternative? » blueberry1, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 19:05:30
I have also found marijuana to interact negatively with selegiline. That along with St. Johns Wort were the worst to combine and they both have strong dopaminergic actions. The SJW I was taking had a high hyperforin content which is implicated in the stimulating effects of the plant. I wonder if I would've have the same reaction on a low hyperforin extract? Hard to speculate but I will definitely attest to the dopamine overload (scientific term) :) that link described. Not a fun experience.
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 19:18:42
In reply to Re: Marijuana. What's the Best Legal Alternative?, posted by blueberry1 on December 29, 2006, at 18:50:07
I've tried a few smoking blends containing passiflora, valerian, scullcap, opium lettuce and kratom. The best marijuana alternative I've ever taken is the herbal 'Spice' smoking blend I posted further up this thread. It's identical to smoking the real thing for me. Mcanxious who sometimes posts here can also confirm its effectiveness if he happens to be lurking.
Here are the ingredients with an explanation of their uses - it may be an idea to try and replicate them? For me Blue lotus has the closest effect to marijuana when taken alone.
__________________________________________________
SpiceSpice contains a combination of plants and aromatic extracts including:
Baybean - Canavalia maritima
Smoked on the Gulf Coast of Mexico as Marijuana substitute. Seeds have been found in royal grave sites in the Yucatan and Peru dating from 300 B.C. to A.D. 900.Blue Lotus - Nymphaea caerulea & Nymphaea alba
Worshipped by ancient Egyptians as a symbol for the origins of life. The flowers were known for their visionary and inebriating effects. White Lotus was successfully used as an anesthetic in WWI when the more traditional opiate anesthetic wasn't available.Dwarf scullcap - Scuttelaria nana
Scullcap is well-known among the Cherokee and other Native American tribes as a sedative and excellent treatment for anxiety and insomnia. It has been known to cause giddiness when large amounts are ingested.Indian Warrior - Pedicularis densiflora
At least one Native American tribe is known to smoke the flowers of certain Pedicularis species for their narcotic effects. Pedicularis densiflora is one of the most rare and potent species of Pedicularis. It has been used for many years as an aphrodisiac, muscle relaxer and strong sedative. More potent than any other herb of its kind.Lion's Tail - Leonotis leonurus
Used by the Xhosa and Hottentot tribes of South Africa for inebriant and euphoric effects.Maconha Brava - Zornia latifolia
Dried leaves smoked by Indians in Brazil as a visionary aide. The vernacular name Maconha Brava means "false Marijuana".Pink Lotus - Nelumbo nucifera
Possesses great significance in Eastern religion. Indians believe that Brahma, creator and God of the universe, sprang from a lotus blossom. Pink Lotus was often smoked or made into a tea to create a mystical feeling of joy that permeated the mind and body.Siberian Motherwort - Leonurus sibiricus
Used in Chinese medicine for thousands of years under the name Yi Mu Cao. Also commonly used in Brazil and Chiapas as a substitute for another popular smoking herb giving it the nickname "Little Marijuana".
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by blueberry1 on December 29, 2006, at 19:53:10
In reply to Re: Marijuana. What's the Best Legal Alternative? » blueberry1, posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 19:18:42
Cool ideas. The problem with Spice is they won't ship it to USA. I know I can get scullcap bulk herb at the local health food store but I doubt the others would be easy to find.
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 20:04:41
In reply to Re: Marijuana. What's the Best Legal Alternative? » Quintal, posted by blueberry1 on December 29, 2006, at 19:53:10
You can buy most of those from an online headshop like iamshaman:
Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 20:52:49
In reply to Re: Marijuana. What's the Best Legal Alternative?, posted by TenMan on December 29, 2006, at 19:14:56
Wow, interesting. Thanks for mentioning it. What exactly was your reaction like? Was it with all three together, or something unique to the selegeline-marijuana combo?
> I have also found marijuana to interact negatively with selegiline. That along with St. Johns Wort were the worst to combine and they both have strong dopaminergic actions. The SJW I was taking had a high hyperforin content which is implicated in the stimulating effects of the plant. I wonder if I would've have the same reaction on a low hyperforin extract? Hard to speculate but I will definitely attest to the dopamine overload (scientific term) :) that link described. Not a fun experience.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.