![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
I'm off meds--I've been off meds, except for a brief trial run of tramadol, for over a year now. I have terrible mood swings, but they're getting better. I have terrible anxiety, but its getting better. I sometimes can't sleep, but I deal with it the next day. Contrary to the predictions of my shrinks, I haven't slumped into any sort of super-anxious or agitated or manic or depressed or psychotic state.
I'm just...me. Like I was before the meds; in fact, now I feel as if I have to make up for the time I spent on meds...a big part of the challenge for me has been to live and learn without meds, to face fears without a klonopin or an abilify or a propranolol and learn to talk to friends, not some over-worked, callous shrink or sympathetic therapist. Even my family and friends, who were once so sold on the idea of me being always and forever mentally ill--"schizophrenic" briefly, then "bipolar"--say to me: They were wrong. You're weird, you're moody and angry and witty and odd, but you're not crazy.
So now I'm right. I'm right when I say that the shrinks lied to me, and they're probably lying to you, too. Odds are, if you're on this board, you have a shrink. And your shrink is prescribing meds to control a "condition" that, really, exists only in the DSM. I mean, of course some of us are afraid a lot or sad or hear voices or get agitated, but the idea that any of the multitude of drugs out there somehow magically, specifically fix these problems is ridiculous. If that were the case, then why are some people with depression given antipsychotics, while people with schizoaffective disorder may only take depakote? Or...why are autistic and/or misbehaved kids being "treated" with the same meds we give to schizophrenics...why is it an "antipsychotic" for the schizophrenic, and a "tranquilizer" for the autistic kid? Why are both of these people often being coerced or forced to take these meds? Why are billions being made by doctors and companies off of *our* suffering and *our* pain?
Why is it that its illegal to throw someone in jail because they're "strange" or "odd," but its perfectly legal to lock up a person who is "bipolar" or "schizophrenic" ? And why is it that someone accussed of murder gets a trial by jury before being sent away, but someone who hears voices or acts oddly or just upsets those around them is sent away with the thumbs up of a low-level judge? And why is imprisonment "punishment" for one, and "treatment" for the other?
Why? Because its lies. Its all lies, lies, lies, and here's the biggest lie of them all: You're crazy. Because even though I don't know you, I haven't met you, I probably never will meet you, I know you're not crazy. I'm pretty sure you're stressed and sad and scared and anxious and unfocused and struggling, but I KNOW you're not crazy because I hear my own life in yours and see my own struggle in yours and I know that if there's hope for me without overpaid shrinks and 10minute med checks and a plethora of psychotropics then there's hope for you, too.
So...disagree, if you want, and I'm sure a lot of you (most? all?) will. That's fine. Just know that even if you don't believe in what I say, I believe in YOU, all of YOU, and in your ability to meet life's challenges without the cruel compassion of those who "help" us by numbing us, "cure" us by destroying our souls.
Posted by ronaldo on November 30, 2006, at 4:26:54
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
I hear you m_e. So it seems like to me that the problem lies with the institutionalized mental health regime. They have all been doing the same thing the same way for so long that they don't know any better. The shrinks have shrunk into a tight little ball and they all behave the same way and they all support each other by sticking to a strict modus operandi. What we need is some pdocs who are willing to be different, to try different meds, to try different treatments; but if one pdoc sticks his neck out and comes unstuck as a result his colleagues will all say 'that's what happens when you stray off the beaten track'.
Shrinks should listen to their patients more and to their colleagues less. We need pdocs who look outwards, who stretch the boundaries of mental health but unfortunately there are too many of them who constantly look over their shoulders to see if they have the approval of their colleagues. What we need is pdocs who dare to be different.
...ronaldo
Posted by madeline on November 30, 2006, at 5:34:45
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
My mom is bipolar and she says that the drugs rob her of her soul too.
I've seen her sit and slobber on depakote. I threw those pills away for her.
She wants to work, she wants to enjoy her grandchildren. It has been a struggle to keep her "whole" while keeping her functioning with or without meds.
It has also been a struggle to keep her alive when she is suicidal, keep her away from people when she is aggresive and keep her out of the hospital.
But lamictal worked - I mean worked. She's mom, not some zombie.
And we never would have gotten here without the aid of a very good shrink (finally).
I don't think shrinks lie necessarily, I honestly think they are trying to help. But a lot of them just don't seem to listen to their patients and I think this causes a lot of suffering.
The state of mental health care IS horrible. Drugs can do a lot of harm, doctors can do a lot of harm. This is compounded by the fact that the "mentally ill" patient has very few options when it comes to health care providers.
My mom is a succcess story - for now.
But the struggle continues for most.
I'm just babbling. Sorry if this post makes no sense. I just feel bad for those that are suffering.
Posted by Vale on November 30, 2006, at 11:38:36
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
Hi,
Excellent thread, keep this spirit up, ( they don't all lie though, I was once told by a very honest Dr. that it's best to take no meds.)
V.
Posted by Sebastian on November 30, 2006, at 11:43:39
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
My shrink lied to me about getting off meds. Said I could do it. Instead I suffered withdraw, going psychotic, and feeling awfull. My shrink would just say aw you will be fine, won't have any problems. So I went psychotic for 3 years. Now I'm back on the meds for the 100th time and trying to straighten out my mind again.
Posted by Crazy Horse on November 30, 2006, at 11:51:53
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
> I'm off meds--I've been off meds, except for a brief trial run of tramadol, for over a year now. I have terrible mood swings, but they're getting better. I have terrible anxiety, but its getting better. I sometimes can't sleep, but I deal with it the next day. Contrary to the predictions of my shrinks, I haven't slumped into any sort of super-anxious or agitated or manic or depressed or psychotic state.
>
> I'm just...me. Like I was before the meds; in fact, now I feel as if I have to make up for the time I spent on meds...a big part of the challenge for me has been to live and learn without meds, to face fears without a klonopin or an abilify or a propranolol and learn to talk to friends, not some over-worked, callous shrink or sympathetic therapist. Even my family and friends, who were once so sold on the idea of me being always and forever mentally ill--"schizophrenic" briefly, then "bipolar"--say to me: They were wrong. You're weird, you're moody and angry and witty and odd, but you're not crazy.
>
> So now I'm right. I'm right when I say that the shrinks lied to me, and they're probably lying to you, too. Odds are, if you're on this board, you have a shrink. And your shrink is prescribing meds to control a "condition" that, really, exists only in the DSM. I mean, of course some of us are afraid a lot or sad or hear voices or get agitated, but the idea that any of the multitude of drugs out there somehow magically, specifically fix these problems is ridiculous. If that were the case, then why are some people with depression given antipsychotics, while people with schizoaffective disorder may only take depakote? Or...why are autistic and/or misbehaved kids being "treated" with the same meds we give to schizophrenics...why is it an "antipsychotic" for the schizophrenic, and a "tranquilizer" for the autistic kid? Why are both of these people often being coerced or forced to take these meds? Why are billions being made by doctors and companies off of *our* suffering and *our* pain?
>
> Why is it that its illegal to throw someone in jail because they're "strange" or "odd," but its perfectly legal to lock up a person who is "bipolar" or "schizophrenic" ? And why is it that someone accussed of murder gets a trial by jury before being sent away, but someone who hears voices or acts oddly or just upsets those around them is sent away with the thumbs up of a low-level judge? And why is imprisonment "punishment" for one, and "treatment" for the other?
>
> Why? Because its lies. Its all lies, lies, lies, and here's the biggest lie of them all: You're crazy. Because even though I don't know you, I haven't met you, I probably never will meet you, I know you're not crazy. I'm pretty sure you're stressed and sad and scared and anxious and unfocused and struggling, but I KNOW you're not crazy because I hear my own life in yours and see my own struggle in yours and I know that if there's hope for me without overpaid shrinks and 10minute med checks and a plethora of psychotropics then there's hope for you, too.
>
> So...disagree, if you want, and I'm sure a lot of you (most? all?) will. That's fine. Just know that even if you don't believe in what I say, I believe in YOU, all of YOU, and in your ability to meet life's challenges without the cruel compassion of those who "help" us by numbing us, "cure" us by destroying our souls.
>
>I have to say, you make a lot of good points. Good job, and i agree with some of what you are saying.
-MJ
Posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2006, at 12:24:08
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie » med_empowered, posted by Crazy Horse on November 30, 2006, at 11:51:53
In a lot of ways I agree but someone who is truly schizoprenic or bipolar needs meds or psychotically depressed. That's my opinion. Love Phillipa
Posted by notfred on November 30, 2006, at 16:17:49
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
Why is it that its illegal to throw someone in jail because they're "strange" or "odd," but its perfectly legal to lock up a person who is "bipolar" or "schizophrenic" ?
It is not the condition they have that allows for a 72 hour hold, it is their actions. Being a danger to yourself or others gets a 72 hour hold. It is not that someone has bipolar, it is their sucide attempts and serious threats to others
that gets them locked up.My brother got placed on a 72 hr hold because he made serious threats to a neighbors life. Once he was admitted they found my number & my parents number in his wallet. He had stopped his AP. Going through his house it was clear he was in a dangerous state, both to himself and others. I feel he would not be here today if the neighbors had not called the police.
Posted by Declan on December 1, 2006, at 0:51:35
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
I don't disagree at all. What you said applies to me. Thanks.
Posted by stargazer on December 1, 2006, at 9:28:50
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
Obviously, some lie just as all people do, both professionally and personally. You have to just be able to know when lying is damaging to you and get out before real harm is done. easier said than done.
I don't think my pdoc has "lied" to me but sometimes he has recommended something that he felt was the right course of action and it turned out not to be. I think many of them are in the dark as much as us with knowing what medication will work. The truths about some of the drugs are not known until many years later.
I have witnessed doctors lying to patients and wonder how they can do that to people who are so desparate and have no ability to make decisions for themselves. There are many doctors who do this and it is appalling.
I am lucky that my pdoc says he doesn't know alot but other times tells me something will work and I believe him, knowing there is no guarantee, but it gives me hope I otherwise wouldn't have. That kind of lying is done for the right reasons.
SG
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on December 1, 2006, at 10:46:23
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
Yep I totally agree with you. I think Big Pharma companies are largely to blame for the 'pill pushing' culture. They fund lots of studies showing their pills work, they take pdocs to fancy conferences to show them that the pills work and in reality, do these pills really work for most of us, most of the time? They don't even do that, IMHO.
Personally, I've stopped seeking for a chemical solution to my problems. What is 'normal' anyway? Who are they to judge? Obviously, if you're going to kill someone or youself, then perhaps meds do have their place, but well...
Posted by Bonnie_CA on December 1, 2006, at 14:16:56
In reply to I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on November 30, 2006, at 2:44:08
Only the lousy shrinks lie. They lie because they don't know the answer. The truthful ones are able to say "I don't know" when they don't know.
I know some people have some terrible experiences with meds. I've had some terrible experiences. But I think my experiences have been more terrible without meds. No doctor ever told me I HAD to take medication. They offered it, I tried it, and it worked for me.
HURRAY! Next month I can switch insurances and finally get a decent pdoc that will actually work to help me get my anxiety under control. The moron I have now just throws meds at me and crosses his fingers. The good news is that I can now tell future doctors all the things that didn't work.
I'm babbling. I just had some other stuff to get out. But I think the correct statement is BAD shrinks lie. :)
Posted by med_empowered on December 1, 2006, at 15:21:55
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie » med_empowered, posted by Bonnie_CA on December 1, 2006, at 14:16:56
to clarify, a little...I think biopsychiatry, this idea that "mentall illnesss" is a chemical/physical phenomenom with chemically-based "cures" is a lie. Lies individual shrinks may sometimes tell patients--"You need to take this or....." or "This drug XXX corrects what's wrong with you...," so on and so forth, are the "little lies".
The BIG LIE, as I see it, is biopsychiatry itself. The studies are poorly conducted with an eye towards profit and maintaining the status quo, and everyone (docs, big pharma) benefits, except for the patients. Psychiatry has never exactly been *nice* to many who entered into treatment, but biopsychiatry has really sucked every last drop of humanity, humility, and understanding out of the enterprise. Its a shame, really--we've replaced people with pills under the assumption that people would get better, and its failed, and now there appears to be no change in sight: psychiatrists largely seem determined to "stay the course," irrespective of patient needs and even data that would show there are other ways to deal with emotional problems.
Posted by notfred on December 1, 2006, at 15:41:50
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on December 1, 2006, at 15:21:55
> to clarify, a little...I think biopsychiatry, this idea that "mentall illnesss" is a chemical/physical phenomenom with chemically-based "cures" is a lie.
No one has ever said they have a cure.
Posted by notfred on December 1, 2006, at 15:58:12
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie » med_empowered, posted by Bonnie_CA on December 1, 2006, at 14:16:56
> Only the lousy shrinks lie. They lie because they don't know the answer. The truthful ones are able to say "I don't know" when they don't know.
>
> I know some people have some terrible experiences with meds. I've had some terrible experiences. But I think my experiences have been more terrible without meds. No doctor ever told me I HAD to take medication. They offered it, I tried it, and it worked for me.
>Good points. Why would someone continue to pay money to be lied to ? Or continue to pay for bad service ?
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on you"
Posted by linkadge on December 1, 2006, at 19:18:25
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie, posted by med_empowered on December 1, 2006, at 15:21:55
For some mental illness, I think there is something wrong with the brain. Something that may not be correctable with time or emotional counselling.
But, that is a far strech from proof of the safety or efficacy of current psychiatric medications.
Linkadge
Posted by Karen44 on December 2, 2006, at 0:21:45
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie, posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2006, at 12:24:08
> In a lot of ways I agree but someone who is truly schizoprenic or bipolar needs meds or psychotically depressed. That's my opinion. Love Phillipa
I agree with Philipa. Sounds like you were misdiagnosed; has anyone suggested borderline stuff as what might be the issue. Often folks who actually have borderline traits have been diagnosed with schizophrenia or bipolar or a number of other diagnoses.
Karen44
Posted by MM on December 2, 2006, at 3:43:07
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie, posted by notfred on December 1, 2006, at 15:41:50
> > to clarify, a little...I think biopsychiatry, this idea that "mentall illnesss" is a chemical/physical phenomenom with chemically-based "cures" is a lie.
>
>
> No one has ever said they have a cure.
Actually, I've been told I would be all better because this or that med would correct my "imbalance" or whatever (I assume this to mean the same thing as cure) so many times that I think it's a common thing to say/believe. I've gone into a psychiatrist's office feeling 1,000x worse than my first appointment and been told I'm doing better. I guess it would be hard to think it was futile and still do the job (not that I think meds are completely futile, just that there's a lot of misinformation/glorification and too much of a financial stake which is dangerous, etc.) but getting my hopes up made it harder when things didn't work.I wish that they would apologize when they make mistakes though. When they get your hopes up or make you fat when they said they wouldn't...I wish they would just suck it up and be human about it. I'm pretty forgiving. If someone screws up your order at a restaurant they usually apologizem, maybe you get it free; when someone screws up your brain/body.....seems rather odd to me to brush it off.
I also wish they would try the meds so they could learn to have more empathy for their patients and see them as people and take us more seriously....Anyway, sorry, lots of wishful thinking. I guess my point was that I do think it's a commonly held belief in and out of psychiatry that they have a cure (happy pill commercials???). I don't mean to be stirring anything up though so I hope it doesn't come off that way. It's frustration with "the system", not the comment.
-MM
Posted by linkadge on December 2, 2006, at 8:37:59
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie » notfred, posted by MM on December 2, 2006, at 3:43:07
Hey, I agree with those comments.
It seems that psychiatry *can't* be wrong for whatever reason. Everybody else in this world is humble enough to make mistakes, but psychiatry thinks it is above mistakes.Perhaps it thinks that it cannot show weakness.
Even now, you don't see anyone going around saying we were wrong to give people TD with older antipsychotics. Nobody ever appologized to my mom for giving her movement problems.
I guess with a mistake as big as that, the tendancy is to just deny. Sweep it under the carpet.
The worst is when they try to pawn off the drug indiced effects as symptoms of your mental illness.
Drug makes your eyes get stuck shut? "Well, that happens a lot to depressed people, I see it all the time, you must be anxious"
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 2, 2006, at 8:39:08
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie » notfred, posted by MM on December 2, 2006, at 3:43:07
I see a lot of people go "down the garden path".
This is what I call it when you start out with a trivial problem, and before you know it, you need ECT.
Down the garden path.
Linkadge
Posted by Crazy Horse on December 2, 2006, at 9:01:23
In reply to Re: Down the garden path, posted by linkadge on December 2, 2006, at 8:39:08
> I see a lot of people go "down the garden path".
>
> This is what I call it when you start out with a trivial problem, and before you know it, you need ECT.
>
> Down the garden path.
>
> Linkadgeha..yea, your right this is common.
-MJ
Posted by notfred on December 2, 2006, at 14:45:22
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie » notfred, posted by MM on December 2, 2006, at 3:43:07
> Actually, I've been told I would be all better thinking. I guess my point was that I do think it's a commonly held belief in and out of psychiatry that they have a cure (happy pill commercials???). I don't mean to be stirring anything up though so I hope it doesn't come off that way. It's frustration with "the system", not the comment.
>
>
>A cure does not envolve having to take a pill for the rest of your life. That is a treatment.
> -MM
Posted by med_empowered on December 2, 2006, at 15:06:17
In reply to Re: I think shrinks lie, posted by notfred on December 2, 2006, at 14:45:22
Here's the deal: we're led to believe meds are good and that they help and that, for certain disorders, they are necessary. In fact, meds are considered so necessary for certain disorders that individuals (usually poor and/or ethinic minority individuals) can be forefully "treated" without their consent. This has never happened to me, fortunately, but I think it is a vile practice must be ended, sooner rather than later.
Just think about the BILLIONS spent on ineffective or marginally effective meds that could have been spent on anything else. Like stopping hunger, AIDS, cancer, ending sexism/homophobia, pursuing psychological treatment, giving people adequate housing...basically making the world a better place. But psychiatry doesn't want to make the world a "better" or more "humane" place: the overriding concern seems to be with making the world a more "normal" and "mentally healthy" place. The fact that these 2 goals sometimes are sometimes incompatible raises serious concerns (for me, at least) about just how "helpful" psychiatry really is.
So, here are my theories: locking people up (who aren't criminals) isn't humane or good. Forcing drugs on people isn't humane or good. Labelling people and then filling them with drugs without explaining their mechanisms of action or potential side effects is not a good thing. Making money medicating the suffering is only a good thing if the suffering stops, or those suffering lead better lives. Since this seems to not happen too often, then this practice is not a good one.
To recap: pursuit of happiness and self-expression and kindness: good.
Alot of what psychiatry has done and continues to do: bad.
Posted by notfred on December 2, 2006, at 16:14:43
In reply to Further clarification...., posted by med_empowered on December 2, 2006, at 15:06:17
Well, for myself the meds have saved my life. Ritalin as a child was very very effective.
the AD's work very well; they clearly make a big difference. I am in my 40's and am on my second very successful career. Except for a breakthru depression here are there my depression has been in remission for over 20 yrs.I have always been careful to screen my pdocs & don't waste any time with ones that are not helping.
I do not doubt that some people have great difficulity with MI but I object to them generalizing their experiences to cover everyone.
Posted by madeline on December 2, 2006, at 18:39:44
In reply to Further clarification...., posted by med_empowered on December 2, 2006, at 15:06:17
Meds have been a godsend for me. I remember when the prozac kicked in, food started to taste again, I began to see colors again, the world just became brighter.
Sometimes I still am almost overwhelmed with gratitude for finally having my life.
But without therapy and better life coping skills all the drug therapy in the world would have been less effective for me.
I think depression and the other mental illnesses will end up being a lot like cancer. There is no magic bullet that will work for everyone and all types of cancer.
Likewise there will be no magic bullet that will work for all mental illness in every person.
The key is getting the right drug in the right person.
We aren't there in cancer treatments and we aren't there in the treatment of mental illness, but it isn't entirely fair to indict all drugs and all physicians.
There is no reason to medicate anyone without their consent unless they represent a danger to themselves or others.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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