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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 166. Go back in thread:
Posted by fuchsia on July 1, 2006, at 6:00:38
In reply to Re: AD's and Future Use of Antiparkinson Drugs, posted by linkadge on July 1, 2006, at 0:25:53
After a number of antidepressant trials I started to get, in my depressions, a kind of paralysis where I truly could not move. I never got that before I had ADs and I only don't have it now because my Lamictal is holding up (barely).
Posted by flmm on July 1, 2006, at 11:28:55
In reply to Re: AD's and Future Use of Antiparkinson Drugs, posted by fuchsia on July 1, 2006, at 6:00:38
Maybe mental illness is just that, mental illness! Maybe it can deteriate into Parkinsons. Maybe there is not a conspiracy to make us crazy! Maybe we have to accept our illness and deal with it the best we can!
Posted by linkadge on July 1, 2006, at 14:51:27
In reply to Re: AD's and Future Use of Antiparkinson Drugs, posted by flmm on July 1, 2006, at 11:28:55
I don't think there is a conspiracy, I just think that we don't know enough about these drugs.
For instance, from a study done on sertraline:
http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/2/163-a
We cannot know whether this illness would have developed in our patient if the SSRI had never been started. A recent study has demonstrated that SSRIs can induce neuroanatomical changes in the thalamus.4 Systematic studies are needed to address whether SSRI's can induce Parkinson's disease.
------------------------Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on July 1, 2006, at 18:47:33
In reply to Re: AD's and Future Use of Antiparkinson Drugs, posted by fuchsia on July 1, 2006, at 6:00:38
Fushia do you find lamictal as monotherphy better than an AD? And is it stimulating or calming for you. And what dose are you on? love Phillipa
Posted by flmm on July 1, 2006, at 18:50:39
In reply to Re: AD's and Future Use of Antiparkinson Drugs, posted by linkadge on July 1, 2006, at 14:51:27
So don't take the drugs then! Suffer if you like! Why scare other people who may finally be relieved of depression and anxiety? What are the great alternatives offered? We have problems that get excaserbated by scare mongers! I am sick of it. If you live on the internet, you will always find something negative about ANYTHING! Go outside, get some fresh air!
Posted by flmm on July 1, 2006, at 19:00:03
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 1, 2006, at 18:50:39
I really think I need to re-evaluate if I should continue coming to this site in the future. Without fail, if I ever start to feel good, I come here and firmly get a reality check that something bad is just around the corner! No wonder nobody gets better on this site!
Posted by Jakeman on July 2, 2006, at 2:11:52
In reply to AD's and Future Use of Antiparkinson Drugs, posted by djmmm on June 30, 2006, at 6:54:27
"It is possible that the treatments for these disorders, and not the disorders themselves, are what precipitate Parkinson's disease, the authors point out.
A startling statement. Does anyone have the full article? Keep in mind that the abstract said "it is possible..." I like to see the data.
The abstract doesn't mention specific drugs, just lithium and "treatments".
warm regards, Jake
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 2:30:43
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 1, 2006, at 18:50:39
>So don't take the drugs then! Suffer if you >like! Why scare other people who may finally >be .relieved of depression and anxiety? What >are the great alternatives offered? We have >problems that get excaserbated by scare >mongers! I am sick of it. If you live on the >internet, you will always find something >negative about ANYTHING! Go outside, get some >fresh air!
Hey, I am not trying to fear monger. I bring up the information that I do, because I would like to see if others might be able to help me see it in a different way. Alternitives? There are some.
Why shouldn't people be concerned when they are dealing with something as precious as the human mind? "As long as I feel good now", is great for today, but people will still have to live with their brains down the road. Scare people away from treatment? That could be a good thing. I wish I had never touched an SSRI. I know there are many others who feel the same way.I am scared, because I have seen what medications can do to destroy my mother's life. She was assured of the safety of certain medications. Medications which have long since been deemed unsafe. She is a product of lithium antipsychotic, anticonvulstants antidepressants, and tranquilizers. Its not pretty. I'd say she's in worse shape than Ozzy.
I am sorry if their is a negative spin on all of my posts. I am here to get answers like everybody else, but if I can learn anything from my mother's mistakes is that you really need to question your decisions over and over and over.
Its not that I don't want people to get better. It's just that I don't want people to get worse.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 2:45:55
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 1, 2006, at 19:00:03
>I really think I need to re-evaluate if I >should continue coming to this site in the >future. Without fail, if I ever start to feel >good, I come here and firmly get a reality >check that something bad is just around the >corner! No wonder nobody gets better on this >site!
Reality is not black and white. We all wish there was a medication that was effective and safe. Its got nothing to do with the people on this board, people are just brining up valid points. Don't shoot the messenger.
Would you rather not know? If somebody conducts a study to see if there is an association between antidepressant drugs and parkinson's, how can that not be in your best interest? The answer we would like to believe is that the medications have nothing to do with it. But what we would like to believe is not always the truth.
There is truth out there. Its not as if I just hate medications, and so I decide to fabricate whatever I can to paint a scarry picture. I was not the one who conducted the study that showed SSRI's can cause neuroanatomical changes to part of the brain. Its great if your doctor only tells you the good stuff. If they told you the whole picture, you might not take the drug. Some doctors figure its best to sheild a mentally ill patient from such information since they believe that in a depressed state your judgement is flawed.
If you happen (God forbid) to suffer a seemingly permamant neurological reaction to a medication like myself and some others on this board, you may start to wonder..why wasn't I made aware of all the potential side effects of this medication?
I'm not telling people not to take their medications, I am just brining up what I thought was relavant information.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 2:50:38
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 2:45:55
I suppose a study would need to directly match similar mood disorders to see if treatment itself is associated with developement of parkinson's.
Linkadge
Posted by Klavot on July 2, 2006, at 9:08:25
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 2:50:38
See http://www.socialfear.com for the following claim:
"It has been noted that those with generalized Social Phobia have a 5 times greater risk of developing Parkinson's Disease in later life."
In my opinion this supports the hypothesis that depression, social phobia and Parkinson's are diseases with similar aetiology, rather than that SSRI'S cause Parkinson's.
Posted by Iansf on July 2, 2006, at 11:45:53
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by Klavot on July 2, 2006, at 9:08:25
I tend to agree. As a noted in my first post, the fact that some of the same drugs are used to treat both mood disorders and Parkinsonism suggests the possibility of a common cause, or at least a partial common cause. Which doesn't necessarily exonerate SSRIs as a potential cause of Parkinsonism. Clearly both possibilities need further study.
> See http://www.socialfear.com for the following claim:
>
> "It has been noted that those with generalized Social Phobia have a 5 times greater risk of developing Parkinson's Disease in later life."
>
> In my opinion this supports the hypothesis that depression, social phobia and Parkinson's are diseases with similar aetiology, rather than that SSRI'S cause Parkinson's.
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2006, at 12:56:19
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by Iansf on July 2, 2006, at 11:45:53
Is it possible, Linkadge, your mother would have serious problems with or without medication? From your posts it is clear you are not better on or off them. Gee, coincedence? There are a great many people helped by medication, even if they do not post here! Don't be angry at those who achieve relief. Most of us would have NO tommorrow if we could not get thru today! I will take my chances as there are no easy answers about mental illness. Overanalyzing every study every person does in the world will get most people no-where fast! Just trying to get thru this.....
Posted by Klavot on July 2, 2006, at 13:56:26
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 2, 2006, at 12:56:19
Perhaps SSRI's do contribute to Parkinson's. Even if that is the case, what are my alternatives? I have done a risk-benefit analysis, and notwithstanding the potential health implications of long-term SSRI use, I believe I am better off with them, at least for the time being.
Are antidopaminergic effects limited to SSRI's or do they also occur with other AD's? Linkadge?
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2006, at 15:32:49
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by Klavot on July 2, 2006, at 13:56:26
I would also like to point out, if your mother was told that there are no risks to these meds, she would be in a minority of people. There is always a risk/benifit ratio!
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 16:22:54
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by Iansf on July 2, 2006, at 11:45:53
>I tend to agree. As a noted in my first post, >the fact that some of the same drugs are used >to treat both mood disorders and Parkinsonism >suggests the possibility of a common cause, or >at least a partial common cause. Which doesn't >necessarily exonerate SSRIs as a potential >cause of Parkinsonism. Clearly both >
>possibilities need further study
Thats a fair statment.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 16:32:32
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 2, 2006, at 12:56:19
>Is it possible, Linkadge, your mother would >have serious problems with or without >medication?
Anything is possable. Though both her her father and grandmother suffered the same illness without Parkinsonian symptoms till death. She was the only one who medicated for depression.
>From your posts it is clear you are not better >on or off them. Gee, coincedence?
No, I am no better mentally off of them, that does not mean I am not perhps preventing long term problems.
>There are a great many people helped by >medication, even if they do not post here! >Don't be angry at those who achieve relief.
I am not angry in the slightest. I am not evil natured. Why would I not want sombody to achieve recovery? I am simply suggesting (similar to those who conducted that study), that there is a destinct possability that the medication acually worked to promote the development of parkinson's.
>Most of us would have NO tommorrow if we could >not get thru today! I will take my chances as >there are no easy answers about mental illness. >Overanalyzing every study every person does in >the world will get most people no-where fast! >Just trying to get thru this.....You can take from this what you want. I am not trying to make decisions for anybody. Do remember that unmedicated depression often gets better on its own. It lives out its course, and most people get better even without medication.
Its not simply *one* problem that leads me to stop taking these medications. THere are a number of problems that when combined makes me believe that the risk is too great.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 16:36:29
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by Klavot on July 2, 2006, at 13:56:26
The antidopaminergic nature of an antidepressant most likely varies from drug to drug, and on dose etc.
I would think that paxil would confer a significant risk due to it being the most potent, but its short half-life might confer some protection.
Some of the information will have accumulated based on the treatment of depression in parkinsons. Many doctors have realized that SSRI's may help the depression, but can often make the parkinson's worse.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 16:40:34
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 2, 2006, at 15:32:49
My mother did not have acess to the array of information that this generation does.
Everything she read would have been biased. The internet is at least approacing an unbiased view.
Do you think her doctor would have told her about all the potential risks? Her doctor would simply tell her the risks that she was aware of.
Actually, her doctor once tried a TCA when she couldn't sleep. She told my mother that she thought to herself, "Oh my goodness what I am I doing to my Girls". Which was a reference to the many female patients she had been treating with trycyclic antidepressants.
Linkakdge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 16:46:00
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 16:40:34
Doctors will tell you that those who have had manic reactions to antidepressants were latently bipolar, and that the drug was simply unmaskind an underlying bipolar disorder. Do I believe that is true? The idea here is to take the focus off the drug and off psychiatry, and put it back on to the patient, afterall the patient is sick.
The same thing goes here. There is a potential problem with the medications perhaps causing parkinsonian symtpoms. Of course psychiatry is again going to try and take the blame of themselves and off their treatments and put it back onto the patient in the form of..."well, clearly you were going to get parkinson's anyway"..
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2006, at 19:33:30
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 16:46:00
Chronic depression does not go away on it's own!In most people it waxes and wanes. That is why people who go off medication have such a hard time. They usually need it!
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 21:14:59
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 2, 2006, at 19:33:30
No, you're right, some people do need the medication. I am not here to tell people not to take medicaton. I don't think we should stop the search for safer medications though.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 3, 2006, at 4:51:36
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2006, at 21:14:59
OTOH some researchers have noticed that those who do choose to medicate for depression often follow a completely different course of illness than those who do. Does treatment for depression make the illness a more chronic one? Thats for a different thread though.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on July 3, 2006, at 11:00:39
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by linkadge on July 3, 2006, at 4:51:36
I believe it is what it is! It must be treated however needed. Do you think someone is better off living in misery, proud of the fact they don't take medication? Why is it, mental illness is the one disease where you are not supposed to take medication? I don't get it! The course of the illness can change regardless of medication. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not. I know in my case, I am much better off with meds. Just because the course of the illness is not predictable, does not mean it should not be treated! These meds are all we have, they are not perfect, and I am thankfull for them as they have kept me going over 10 years. Every time I stop taking them I become the same person I was, anxious, depressed, unable to work etc. I am no better or worse than before meds, just the same!
Posted by linkadge on July 3, 2006, at 15:24:45
In reply to Re: AD's and Future / Linkadge, posted by flmm on July 3, 2006, at 11:00:39
>believe it is what it is! It must be treated >however needed. Do you think someone is better >off living in misery, proud of the fact they >don't take medication?
I don't derive any pride from the taking or not taking a medication. That makes no sense to me.
I am *not* putting anyone down for making the decision that they are making.>Why is it, mental illness is the one disease >where you are not supposed to take medication? >I don't get it! The course of the illness can >change regardless of medication. Sometimes it >helps, sometimes not. I know in my case, I am >much better off with meds.
I don't know who said not to take medication, but it wasn't me. I am not against the notion of taking medication at all.
>Just because the course of the illness is not >predictable, does not mean it should not be >treated! These meds are all we have, they are >not perfect, and I am thankfull for them as >they have kept me going over 10 years. Every >time I stop taking them I become the same >person I was, anxious, depressed, unable to >work etc. I am no better or worse than before >meds, just the same!
I am just aluding to the notion which many researchers have been suggesting/hinting at, which is the idea that the use of medication for depression may make it a more chronic one.
You must understand that I what I am posting is not directed at any one person, nor is it the product of any one person. A number of other babblers have posted articles discussing some of the same things. Even I wasn't the one who posted this article about this possable parkinson's link.
Clearly *other* people too are concerned too about exactly what these medications might do long term. Surely it is not right to try and restrict such concerns to being the manivolent plan of one poster Linkadge, nor do to I think it is foolish at all to delve into discussion of such possabilities.
I reiterate, I am not here to tell anyone to take or not take medication. I am simply brining up what I thought was pertainant subject matter.
Linkadge
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