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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 54. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Michael Bell on June 23, 2006, at 3:01:11
First off, I've been off of Nardil for close to two months. Still no full return of SP.
However, it had seemed like it was starting to come back after about 4 weeks, along with some mood instability, since I had quit cold turkey.
Anyway, on to the thread topic. about 2 weeks ago i started taking d-cycloserine. it seems to have eliminated my SP. but more importantly than that are the two following things: 1) i don't feel drugged like i have on every other med i've tried and 2) it has done something that no other med has done, not even nardil and klonopin: that is substantially reduce my ruminating thoughts.
D-Cycloserine is an antiobiotic for tuberculosis. It is an NMDA glycine-receptor agonist that has been proven to aid in extinction of fear when combined with exposure therapy.
However, and I really think this is a big deal: when you have SP, every day is in essence exposure therapy. This is why i think the effects have been so good so far, and why it may be even better for SP than for any other type of phobia.
I hope this is not a placebo effect
Posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 3:31:43
In reply to D-Cycloserine is like nothing i've ever tried, posted by Michael Bell on June 23, 2006, at 3:01:11
Posted by llrrrpp on June 23, 2006, at 8:01:39
In reply to Thankyou Michael, I shall print this. (nm) » Michael Bell, posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 3:31:43
Posted by saturn on June 23, 2006, at 8:26:22
In reply to What is SP? (nm), posted by llrrrpp on June 23, 2006, at 8:01:39
Social Phopia (aka Social Anxiety Disorder).=)
Posted by pseudoname on June 23, 2006, at 11:12:36
In reply to D-Cycloserine is like nothing i've ever tried, posted by Michael Bell on June 23, 2006, at 3:01:11
Hi, Michael.
Thanks for this very interesting post.
Were you prescribed the cycloserine for an infection or for the social phobia? What dose are you on? How long will you be taking it?
I just read that for TB, people take it for over a year.
> I hope this is not a placebo effect
I'm not sure what that could mean in this situation. If it were a placebo, that would be great! Perhaps it'd be a good idea to expose yourself now to as many previously intolerably scary situations as you can, with all the attendant CBT stuff: make predictions and compare them to your actual social experiences, focus on the rewards you gain for being in those situations, pay mindful tolerant attention to bodily feelings, etc.
Best wishes and please keep posting about it.
Posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2006, at 12:20:17
In reply to Taking it for the phobia? » Michael Bell, posted by pseudoname on June 23, 2006, at 11:12:36
If it's an antibiotic for TB what are you taking it for? I am assuming you don't have TB but even if you do it wouldn't be a med you would take indefinitely. Love Phillipa
Posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:29:42
In reply to D-Cycloserine is like nothing i've ever tried, posted by Michael Bell on June 23, 2006, at 3:01:11
Michael, there was a TV program (Catalyst?) about the use of cycloserine (I think it was) and fear producing situations, like heights, and they followed a few people through desensitisation and cycloserine treatment. The results were very positive.
Declan
Posted by willyee on June 23, 2006, at 15:58:23
In reply to Re: D-Cycloserine is like nothing i've ever tried » Michael Bell, posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:29:42
Personaly i try a lot of things because A im not scared of risking a lot to feel better,again this is me,and B like this post i honestly feel there is something out there,unconventional,out of the "box" that were ,meaning someone somewhere is gonna simply stumble upon.
Theres no reason we shouldent try unconventional things that SEEM unconventional,especialy if we remeber the long expensive process a actualy drug takes to become just that.Thanks for the post.
P.S Are there any similiar anti biotics that might even be similiar to the on u speak of,lol we have some here,im not gonna run for the bottle but i am curious,...is the one u speak of one which has a unique method of action among its type of drug?
Posted by itsme2003 on June 23, 2006, at 22:49:10
In reply to Re: D-Cycloserine is like nothing i've ever tried, posted by willyee on June 23, 2006, at 15:58:23
Glycine, D-serine, and D-cycloserine are useful as adjuncts for negative symptoms of schizophrenia. There have been some experiments using them added to antidepressants as well.
Is it available only as a prescription medication, or is it also available as a supplement?
Posted by ZeitGuest on June 24, 2006, at 2:38:19
In reply to D-Cycloserine is like nothing i've ever tried, posted by Michael Bell on June 23, 2006, at 3:01:11
Interesting post, Michael.
Have you noticed any effect on verbal fluency and memory? In other words, does D-Cycloserine make you more talkative, articulate, or quick-thinking? Or does it simply reduce your fear response so that you can get out and be around people more comfortably?
Posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 7:53:39
In reply to D-Cycloserine is like nothing i've ever tried, posted by Michael Bell on June 23, 2006, at 3:01:11
I actually wasn't prescribed it, i got it myself. I'm Taking it for social phobia, based on recent article I read about it. Like I said, I feel as though every day is exposure therapy for social phobes unless you live a completely 100% isolated existence. Here is what i've noticed about it:
a) no drugged altered-feeling like I get from just about every other drug. I mean, every other drug seems to have *some* kind of altering experience, even if very minor.
b) the "hammer to kill an ant" effect: if you took old nardil or klonopin, you know what i mean. not that SP is any way as insignificant as an ant, but i'm just using it as an analogy. Yes those two drugs could be very effective as anti-SP drugs, but they had other effects that went beyond SP. Klonopin caused fatigue, low mood, apathy etc. old nardil made me feel almost detached from reality sometimes. Cycloserine just seems to effect the fear, so far
c) the STARTLE response. I used to startle very easily. Now I don't, not since taking Cycloserine
d) RUMINATING thoughts: this is HUGE for me. No drug i took before, no matter how effective at diminishing SP, got rid of my annoying, omnipresent ruminating thoughts. Almost like OCD without the compulsions part of it. Since taking cylco, the ruminating thoughts are EXTREMELY diminished
thanks for the responses... i'll try to keep u updated as much as possible....
Posted by willyee on June 24, 2006, at 11:16:14
In reply to some more info on cycloserine's effects on me..., posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 7:53:39
> I actually wasn't prescribed it, i got it myself. I'm Taking it for social phobia, based on recent article I read about it. Like I said, I feel as though every day is exposure therapy for social phobes unless you live a completely 100% isolated existence. Here is what i've noticed about it:
>
> a) no drugged altered-feeling like I get from just about every other drug. I mean, every other drug seems to have *some* kind of altering experience, even if very minor.
>
> b) the "hammer to kill an ant" effect: if you took old nardil or klonopin, you know what i mean. not that SP is any way as insignificant as an ant, but i'm just using it as an analogy. Yes those two drugs could be very effective as anti-SP drugs, but they had other effects that went beyond SP. Klonopin caused fatigue, low mood, apathy etc. old nardil made me feel almost detached from reality sometimes. Cycloserine just seems to effect the fear, so far
>
> c) the STARTLE response. I used to startle very easily. Now I don't, not since taking Cycloserine
This is my main problem,i have trouble expressing it cause its LIKE OCD BUT NOT in terms of actions,i dont count things,wash my hands,have phobias etc,instead i have reptitve intrusive thoughts,like the light switch is always ON in my brain and i have to have my body keep up or its hell.One way i try to explain it is i dont know the word bored,my mind moves constantly and i always have something to dwell on,and beging doing.I still cant put it into words but something tells me you are experiancing it as well.I hoped we had happen to have the drug here since my father recently was a lil ill,no go it was another anti biotic with a different pharmocology.I would love to try this i just dont see my doc even listening to me ask for this.
Are there any aminos acids or over the counter substances that come close to the drugs mode of action,i was reading on how it effects the NMDA receptors,and it sounds like it actualy does the opposite of a sedative which is inihbit it,instead it seems to kinda activate it,maybe i read it wrong,regardless would have been nice to have had it here at home.
On a scale of 1-10 where would u place it right now,or is it too early to tell.
>
> d) RUMINATING thoughts: this is HUGE for me. No drug i took before, no matter how effective at diminishing SP, got rid of my annoying, omnipresent ruminating thoughts. Almost like OCD without the compulsions part of it. Since taking cylco, the ruminating thoughts are EXTREMELY diminished
>
> thanks for the responses... i'll try to keep u updated as much as possible....
>
>
Posted by Tom Twilight on June 24, 2006, at 11:24:56
In reply to some more info on cycloserine's effects on me..., posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 7:53:39
Hey Mike
Think I may have asked this before, but which country are you from?
I'm still struggeling to find a doctor in the UK who'l take my Social Anxiety seriously!
Regarding D-cyclosine, have you found it at all affective for generalised type anxiety?
I know what you mean about SA medications being like a sledgehammer.
Clonazepam worked, but I wouldn't want to be on it long term!
Posted by itsme2003 on June 24, 2006, at 16:03:27
In reply to D-cyclosine and some other thinngs!, posted by Tom Twilight on June 24, 2006, at 11:24:56
How much are you taking per day?
Posted by Declan on June 24, 2006, at 17:47:24
In reply to some more info on cycloserine's effects on me..., posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 7:53:39
A mind that never stops? Going over the same things again and again? Living in your head too much?
Posted by willyee on June 24, 2006, at 21:28:08
In reply to Rumination?, posted by Declan on June 24, 2006, at 17:47:24
> A mind that never stops? Going over the same things again and again? Living in your head too much?
Right @#@#$ on,thats it and it sucks big time,no med for me has addressed this problem,very very high doses of kava kava at times have but it just wasnt solid.
Posted by Declan on June 24, 2006, at 22:39:35
In reply to Re: Rumination?, posted by willyee on June 24, 2006, at 21:28:08
Nothing's worked for me, Willy, not even sleep because I can't do that either. I might try this cycloserine stuff.
Declan
Posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 23:15:40
In reply to Daily dosage, posted by itsme2003 on June 24, 2006, at 16:03:27
> How much are you taking per day?
started out at 250 mg - 500 mg per day because that is the size of the pills (250 mg each). So i just assumed that that was the correct dosages. Then I read a couple studies that said that a lower dosage was actually more effective than the higher one, so now I take about 50 mg per day in 2 doses (25 mg each)
Posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 23:17:43
In reply to Re: some more info on cycloserine's effects on me..., posted by willyee on June 24, 2006, at 11:16:14
> > I actually wasn't prescribed it, i got it myself. I'm Taking it for social phobia, based on recent article I read about it. Like I said, I feel as though every day is exposure therapy for social phobes unless you live a completely 100% isolated existence. Here is what i've noticed about it:
> >
> > a) no drugged altered-feeling like I get from just about every other drug. I mean, every other drug seems to have *some* kind of altering experience, even if very minor.
> >
> > b) the "hammer to kill an ant" effect: if you took old nardil or klonopin, you know what i mean. not that SP is any way as insignificant as an ant, but i'm just using it as an analogy. Yes those two drugs could be very effective as anti-SP drugs, but they had other effects that went beyond SP. Klonopin caused fatigue, low mood, apathy etc. old nardil made me feel almost detached from reality sometimes. Cycloserine just seems to effect the fear, so far
> >
> > c) the STARTLE response. I used to startle very easily. Now I don't, not since taking Cycloserine
> This is my main problem,i have trouble expressing it cause its LIKE OCD BUT NOT in terms of actions,i dont count things,wash my hands,have phobias etc,instead i have reptitve intrusive thoughts,like the light switch is always ON in my brain and i have to have my body keep up or its hell.
>
> One way i try to explain it is i dont know the word bored,my mind moves constantly and i always have something to dwell on,and beging doing.I still cant put it into words but something tells me you are experiancing it as well.I hoped we had happen to have the drug here since my father recently was a lil ill,no go it was another anti biotic with a different pharmocology.I would love to try this i just dont see my doc even listening to me ask for this.
>
> Are there any aminos acids or over the counter substances that come close to the drugs mode of action,i was reading on how it effects the NMDA receptors,and it sounds like it actualy does the opposite of a sedative which is inihbit it,instead it seems to kinda activate it,maybe i read it wrong,regardless would have been nice to have had it here at home.
>
> On a scale of 1-10 where would u place it right now,or is it too early to tell.
>
>
> >
> > d) RUMINATING thoughts: this is HUGE for me. No drug i took before, no matter how effective at diminishing SP, got rid of my annoying, omnipresent ruminating thoughts. Almost like OCD without the compulsions part of it. Since taking cylco, the ruminating thoughts are EXTREMELY diminished
> >
> > thanks for the responses... i'll try to keep u updated as much as possible....
> >
> >
>
>Gonna give it another week or two then rate it on its effects on SP, anxiety in general, ruminating thoughts, etc.
Posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 23:19:18
In reply to D-cyclosine and some other thinngs!, posted by Tom Twilight on June 24, 2006, at 11:24:56
> Hey Mike
>
> Think I may have asked this before, but which country are you from?
>
> I'm still struggeling to find a doctor in the UK who'l take my Social Anxiety seriously!
>
> Regarding D-cyclosine, have you found it at all affective for generalised type anxiety?
>
> I know what you mean about SA medications being like a sledgehammer.
> Clonazepam worked, but I wouldn't want to be on it long term!I don't really have generalized anxiety, so not sure on its effectiveness there. I'm from the US but I purchased Cycloserine in Asia
Posted by tgo on June 28, 2006, at 15:17:54
In reply to What is SP? (nm), posted by llrrrpp on June 23, 2006, at 8:01:39
Michael, can you email me? therese_obrien@msn.com I've got a couple questions for you. Thanks
Posted by merry_dove on June 28, 2006, at 17:47:55
In reply to Re: D-cyclosine and some other thinngs! » Tom Twilight, posted by Michael Bell on June 24, 2006, at 23:19:18
Are you allowed to say where you purchased this?
Posted by merry_dove on June 28, 2006, at 17:51:30
In reply to Re: D-cyclosine and some other thinngs! » Michael Bell, posted by merry_dove on June 28, 2006, at 17:47:55
Never mind - I should have read the rules before posting. Sorry.
Posted by Sabre on June 28, 2006, at 19:15:57
In reply to Re: D-cyclosine and some other thinngs!, posted by merry_dove on June 28, 2006, at 17:51:30
Hi
I've been looking at some of the research on D-Cycloserine. If you are lucky enough to live in Sydney, Australia, there is a clinical trial of the drug going on:for social anxiety
http://www.psy.unsw.edu.au/facilities/clinic/Social%20Phobia%20Treatment%20Trial.htm#Q7
and for panic disorder
http://www.psy.unsw.edu.au/facilities/Clinic/Panic%20Disorder%20Treatment%20Trial.htmIt is so frustrating to read how effective this drug is supposed to be and yet not to be able to get it. If a drug is not yet approved for SA, can a pyschiatrist or GP prescribe it? Can anyone tell me what the situation in Australia is?
Thanks, Michael for letting us know of your experiences. I'd love to hear more. The benefit of this drug seems to be that is that it isn't just a bandaid approach.
regards
Sabre
Posted by llrrrpp on June 29, 2006, at 21:38:37
In reply to Re: Rumination?, posted by Declan on June 24, 2006, at 22:39:35
> Nothing's worked for me, Willy, not even sleep because I can't do that either. I might try this cycloserine stuff.
> DeclanI realized just today that not only is my insomniac ruminations greatly improved, but also my daytime ruminations too.
I'm sure the T (we do some CBT, but kind of all over the place approach) helps a lot.
I think the seroquel 25-50 mg has helped TREMENDOUSLY. so has my iPOD, and also, perhaps cymbalta (currently making my head spin @ 90 mg)
miss you Declan. hope you're reading! Listening to Richard Strauss: Duet Concertino for Clarinet, Bassoon, Strings and Harp. It's ok. kind of obscure. If you're going to ruminate, it might as well be classical music, right?
-ll
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