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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by willyee on March 9, 2006, at 19:51:15
Let me first make sure there is no mistake,ED i am always impressed with what u know,consider u one of the high arcs when it comes to this place.
HOWEVER this does not mean there will never be a disagreement,and im really shocked and disappointed that you simply wont even allow the claim that so many people make about nardil,
Reason why is this is what we deal with,people who refuse to believe depression is real,and were not downplaying it,and that its something different than the BLUEs and SNAPPING out of it.
Again i cant debate the sceiance,but im also not gonna tell a person,better yet a group of hundreds that they are experienacing something other then what they claim.
Maybe it isnt the bioavailability,maybe from a lamons view a new filler could be interacting with the drug,and thats not the point the point is should we really discredit so many users.
I dont feel it should stop anyone from trying it,i still did,but i cant see how you can discredit the claims of an ENTIRE website and an ENTIRE movement soley on ur belief,regardless of the logic behind it.
Id be frustrated,and disapointed if everytime i claimed something someone i held in high regard kept explaining it off ,it is the reason why i dont discuss depression to even the smartest of people unless they are a fellow sufferer,they simply will keep comming back to their own belifs,when regardless it doesent help me much cause i KNOW what i feel is real,and i wouldent care how many books told me its in my mind.
U may fire back ed lol the gloves are on
Posted by Jakeman on March 9, 2006, at 21:15:43
In reply to Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 9, 2006, at 19:51:15
willyee,
what post are you referring to?
warm regards, Jake
> Let me first make sure there is no mistake,ED i
Posted by Phillipa on March 9, 2006, at 23:20:45
In reply to Re: Im shocked » willyee, posted by Jakeman on March 9, 2006, at 21:15:43
Willyee what thread? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 15:46:58
In reply to Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 9, 2006, at 19:51:15
I'm sorry Willy, sometimes you just have to stick to your guns :)
I'm not saying it's impossible that the 'new' Nardil is less effective than the 'old' Nardil, I just think it's very unlikely. Any (potential) differences in bioavailability could be overcome by adjusting the regimen.
Willy, if you can't tolerate the side effects of the 'new' Nardil, I very much doubt that you could tolerate the 'old' Nardil either. Perhaps it's just not the right drug for you? If you *can* tolerate the side effects then give it a few weeks at least :) Don't be encouraged to believe that it's useless: it's not.
Don't foget that ACE the Nardil champ has always taken the 'new' Nardil ;-)
Regards
Ed
PS. It's common for people to believe that a medication which is unavailable is superior to medications which *are* available. Look at amineptine. VERY FEW p-babblers have tried it, yet many claim that it's a great AD. Is there really much evidence that it's a great AD? People want what they can't have. It's human nature. I may have made myself unpopular, but I needed to be truthful about my beliefs. Please respect that.
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 16:10:28
In reply to Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 9, 2006, at 19:51:15
Questioning the 'new' Nardil status quo on p-babble was apparantly a risky move!
Many people believe that generic SSRIs are less effective that their expensive branded counterparts - I don't.
Many people believe that Lexapro is superior to Celexa - I don't.
Many people believe that Lunesta is less likely to be associated with tolerance than Ambien - I don't.
Sometimes, when things are repeated many times, they start to be treated as if they were well established facts, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.
Regards
Ed
Posted by forgetful mary on March 10, 2006, at 17:24:00
In reply to Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 9, 2006, at 19:51:15
Thanks Willyee...You know something for many years Shrinks blamed my parents for my sisters chronic schizophrenia......and they suffered the rest of their lives with not only her illness but with the accusations imparted by these so-called experts that they caused her suffering..I always felt it was a biological or chemical problem even then,....NOW we know it is a brain disorder...so when anyone presumes to know all the answers always take it with a grain of salt as oftentimes they will be proven wrong with time. I have found that even the so called experts know even less than I do having studied mental illness and read as much as any degree holder...... sometimes you just have to ignore those who refuse to open their eyes and see the obvious.
> Let me first make sure there is no mistake,ED i am always impressed with what u know,consider u one of the high arcs when it comes to this place.
>
> HOWEVER this does not mean there will never be a disagreement,and im really shocked and disappointed that you simply wont even allow the claim that so many people make about nardil,
>
> Reason why is this is what we deal with,people who refuse to believe depression is real,and were not downplaying it,and that its something different than the BLUEs and SNAPPING out of it.
>
> Again i cant debate the sceiance,but im also not gonna tell a person,better yet a group of hundreds that they are experienacing something other then what they claim.
>
> Maybe it isnt the bioavailability,maybe from a lamons view a new filler could be interacting with the drug,and thats not the point the point is should we really discredit so many users.
>
> I dont feel it should stop anyone from trying it,i still did,but i cant see how you can discredit the claims of an ENTIRE website and an ENTIRE movement soley on ur belief,regardless of the logic behind it.
>
> Id be frustrated,and disapointed if everytime i claimed something someone i held in high regard kept explaining it off ,it is the reason why i dont discuss depression to even the smartest of people unless they are a fellow sufferer,they simply will keep comming back to their own belifs,when regardless it doesent help me much cause i KNOW what i feel is real,and i wouldent care how many books told me its in my mind.
>
>
> U may fire back ed lol the gloves are on
Posted by willyee on March 10, 2006, at 21:48:54
In reply to Re: Im shocked » willyee, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 16:10:28
Wasnt the side effects,i could have dealt with that,it was the drug,it seemed to worsen my depression,and i just couldent bear it long.
What was noticable to tis day was a ROBUST response i had to parnate the next day after a few weeks of nardil,no washout.I had a total parnate success feeling.
Since on my own decision ive tried both and just felt blah,so that theory dident pan out.
All in all i just wished i could have said to myself i have tried the older one,guess its a mental thing u know,not saying theres the chance it could have been the same as the response to the newer one.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2006, at 11:46:37
In reply to Re: Im shocked, posted by forgetful mary on March 10, 2006, at 17:24:00
> those who refuse to open their eyes and see the obvious.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please also don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 13:37:53
In reply to Re: Im shocked, posted by forgetful mary on March 10, 2006, at 17:24:00
> when anyone presumes to know all the answers always take it with a grain of salt as oftentimes they will be proven wrong with time
I don't claim to have all the answers, do you?
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 13:42:20
In reply to Re: Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 10, 2006, at 21:48:54
Hi Willy
It's a shame that you didn't respond to Nardil. Some people find that certain ADs aggravate their depression. Ixus, a former poster, found Parnate very effective but Nardil aggravated his depression. I honestly don't think you'd find the old Nardil any better, although anything is possible!
>All in all i just wished i could have said to myself i have tried the older one
It would be nice if you could. It's a great shame that Pfizer decided to alter the formulation. In general, the formulation of established meds should not be altered unless there's a very good reason for doing so.
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by Toph on March 11, 2006, at 13:45:06
In reply to Re: please be civil » forgetful mary, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2006, at 11:46:37
> > (ignore) those who refuse to open their eyes and see the obvious.
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobSounds like good advice to me, Bob. In fact, it sounds like advice you have given others here to avoid conflict.
Posted by willyee on March 11, 2006, at 13:53:48
In reply to Re: Im shocked » forgetful mary, posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 13:37:53
No ,you will always have disagreements,its a part of life,i dont agree and we both are prob stubborn to where it will go no where,doesent mean i wont value any more of ur posts.
I personaly make an overall evalution of a poster,on decieding who i really value most.When someone in my view just conitinues to post things i dont like,or disagree with then i will pretty much not waste my time as its hard enough to read here as it is.
Ed is still way far off from that,a little strong in his opinion on this,but still contributes a lot i believe.
Me for instance,im good at giving flat out lamons term type experiences,when it comes to technical stuff i read closly and just try to understand as much as i can.
p.s i thought i read a post about rj having a cist found on his brain,seems to be gone.
Although i find him kind of fast paced,jumps around a lot on his worries,no offense,i was intrigued that something pyshical was mentioned,what happened to it?
I wish sometimes i had any other disease,i want a doc to see it,least know im not crazy,i wish very much something could be seen on some form of scan,guess not in my lifetime.
Posted by Phillipa on March 11, 2006, at 14:18:31
In reply to Re: Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 11, 2006, at 13:53:48
Willyee I just had to add that you may someday wish you hadn't talked about something physical as I have a micro adenoma a small tumor on my pituitary gland, I've had it for two years discovered on an MRI. At the time they said don't worry it's nothing. Well the other night I was in the ER with shortness of breath Everything was okay with that but I mentioned the tumor to the ER Doc and he referred me to a neurologist for another MRI to see if there are any changes has it grown. As it could cause Cushing Disease and believe it or not it could be pressing on nerves which have lead to a loss of taste and smell which is horrible. So you never know what can happen. I like both you and Ed you both have a lot to offer please both say sorry and let it go as it's going nowhere anyway. Please. Love Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 15:00:40
In reply to Re: Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 11, 2006, at 13:53:48
Hi Willy
I really wanted to start a discussion, not an argument :)
Ed
Posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 17:56:08
In reply to Re: Im shocked » willyee, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 16:10:28
>
> Sometimes, when things are repeated many times, they start to be treated as if they were well established facts, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.
>
> Regards
>
> Ed
>Kinda like people saying that water spirals the opposite way on different sides of the equator. A lot of people truly believe that, and it simply isn't true. Even teachers will frequently tell students that water changes direction on its way out of the sink, which helps perpetuate that myth.
Yes, many people will repeat something they've heard -- Lexapro is better than Celexa, for instance -- without anything to base it on beyond "I read it somewhere" or "someone said."
For whatever it's worth, I am glad you brought up your views on the Nardil thing, because it does make a point that maybe gets lost here sometimes. Not that Nardil works the same -- I don't know, and that isn't the point I mean. Sometimes things get posted here that can interfere with someone's confidence in their treatment plan, or that will frighten someone away from a drug which might work just fine, etc. Sometimes the horror stories that get posted here, while true and accurate from the poster's point of view, give a very unbalanced picture of an option.
Maybe, though, the best way to get that point across is to post a reminder that we need to talk to our doctors about our concerns. And, while I realize this is not an easy option for a lot of people -- NHS doctors, or HMOs, etc -- insisting on adequate treatment from our doctors. Maybe if we all insisted on that, doctors would improve?
Anyway, I'm sorry you're not getting much support for your posting, because -- right or wrong, which I don't know and won't discuss -- I think you posted it with the best intentions, and I think those should be respected and honored.
Posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 18:08:27
In reply to Re: Im shocked » ed_uk, posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 17:56:08
*Kinda like people saying that water spirals the opposite way on different sides of the equator. A lot of people truly believe that, and it simply isn't true. Even teachers will frequently tell students that water changes direction on its way out of the sink, which helps perpetuate that myth.*
Just a bit of fun, I live in australia and have been to the northern hemisphere 5 times and it actually does spin the other way. Paul
Posted by SLS on March 11, 2006, at 21:00:24
In reply to Re: Im shocked » Racer, posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 18:08:27
> *Kinda like people saying that water spirals the opposite way on different sides of the equator. A lot of people truly believe that, and it simply isn't true. Even teachers will frequently tell students that water changes direction on its way out of the sink, which helps perpetuate that myth.*
>
> Just a bit of fun, I live in australia and have been to the northern hemisphere 5 times and it actually does spin the other way. PaulThat's because you are used to looking at things upside down.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 21:40:43
In reply to Re: Im shocked » Racer, posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 18:08:27
> *Kinda like people saying that water spirals the opposite way on different sides of the equator. A lot of people truly believe that, and it simply isn't true. Even teachers will frequently tell students that water changes direction on its way out of the sink, which helps perpetuate that myth.*
>
> Just a bit of fun, I live in australia and have been to the northern hemisphere 5 times and it actually does spin the other way. PaulIf it does, then that's the shape and size of the basin.
Truly -- the Coriolus Effect acts on large bodies of water. If you pull the plug on the Pacific Ocean, it would change direction at the equator. The bathroom sink, though, is way too small. And if my memory weren't so bad right now, I could tell you the name of the guy who did the definitive experiments to prove this. (Come to think of it, he may have been from Oz?)
So, where you at down there?
Posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 23:39:24
In reply to Re: Im shocked » tizza, posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 21:40:43
> > *Kinda like people saying that water spirals the opposite way on different sides of the equator. A lot of people truly believe that, and it simply isn't true. Even teachers will frequently tell students that water changes direction on its way out of the sink, which helps perpetuate that myth.*
> >
> > Just a bit of fun, I live in australia and have been to the northern hemisphere 5 times and it actually does spin the other way. Paul
>
> If it does, then that's the shape and size of the basin.
>
> Truly -- the Coriolus Effect acts on large bodies of water. If you pull the plug on the Pacific Ocean, it would change direction at the equator. The bathroom sink, though, is way too small. And if my memory weren't so bad right now, I could tell you the name of the guy who did the definitive experiments to prove this. (Come to think of it, he may have been from Oz?)
>
> So, where you at down there?I'm in Melbourne. Paul
Posted by willyee on March 12, 2006, at 6:00:42
In reply to Re: Im shocked » ed_uk, posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 17:56:08
I dont think his post was mistreated by the majority of people,even the ones disagreeing.
At the same time i feel the impression as if youre basicaly saying dont worry the INTELLIGENT people know where youre comming from.
Im not putting words in your mouth,you did NOT actualy say this,just the impression i got from your post.
I dont think this will go anywhere really,all i know is where not talking about the one or two people here,there again is a class action lawsuit,an entire MOVEMENT being brought on by veteran users,when i say that i do with sincerity cause a veteran user usualy will not care if the world is flat if he has a med that works for him/her.As far as the posts,this entire group not the discussion unfortunatly us much more negative than postive with information,wish it werent so,but it is.
And it really is up to the reader to determine if this site is hurting them,sometimes it becomes too much for me and i take a break.
I dont feel we should be sugar coating anything this website needs to be handled carefully i always felt that way,thats why im a big advocate on not using this part of the site for various chatting,i try to keep to maois cause thats what im on,i could get involved in all the ssri posts ive been there,but WHY? I dont want to bring back memories,i try to come in,get info,share info ,and get out.
As far as the nardil discussion,if anyone feels truly involved in there belief,i advise going to the actual group and presenting your case there,where the individuals are extremly informed about the change,why they believe its affecting the med,and will provide a debate.
I have posted there,but im simply not knowledagble enough in the chem field to debate it at all,i just again cant believe that an entire website,of seemingly very intelligent individuals,can be wrong on something,i mean the sinceretiy in which they believe in this is so extreme.
But im gonna drop out of this thread,it doesent matter really what any of us think cause we dont have the new nardil available period,so nothing could be even mock tested.
We will just bounce back and fourth like a ball,but ed i dont believe you were treated agressivly except for maybe one poster who seemed to be very emotionaly involved in this,and that is none of my buisness lol,for the most part i think we all listened to each other and were just not gonna agree.
I think our energy is best spent elsewhere at this poiint.
Posted by ed_uk on March 12, 2006, at 10:02:03
In reply to Re: Im shocked » ed_uk, posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 17:56:08
Hi Racie
>Kinda like people saying that water spirals the opposite way on different sides of the equator. A lot of people truly believe that, and it simply isn't true.
LOL I thought that was true!!!
>Yes, many people will repeat something they've heard -- Lexapro is better than Celexa, for instance -- without anything to base it on beyond "I read it somewhere" or "someone said."
People say all sorts of silly things about Lexapro like 'it's half of Celexa so it has half the side effects'. This is very silly indeed ;-) Celexa and Lexapro both owe their efficacy and side effects to the presence of escitalopram. Inevitably, their side effects will be identical or almost identical.
People often respond differently to the same drug at different times in their life. This could explain why some people get different effects from Celexa and Lexapro.
Thanks Racie
Ed xx
Posted by ed_uk on March 12, 2006, at 10:05:40
In reply to Re: Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 12, 2006, at 6:00:42
Hi Willy
I'm gonna continue posting on my original thread. There seem to be some misunderstandings which need to be explained :)
Let's end this thread here :)
Regards
Ed
Posted by Racer on March 12, 2006, at 13:10:38
In reply to Re: Im shocked » Racer, posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 23:39:24
> > > >
> I'm in Melbourne. PaulI LOVE Melbourne, but especially the area down the western side of the bay -- Geelong, and around there. And, of course, the lovely gold country up into the interior. My husband, from NSW (Newcastle), also likes it there. We've talked about heading back to Oz, and settling there in Melbourne. Not likely until he retires, I don't think, and certainly not if my mother stays here, but I'm still rather hoping.
This might only make sense if you realize I'm anorexic, but -- Melbourne is also the only place in the world that I could consistently find food I liked and would eat, in every restaurant, including fast food. But I also loved -- everything. The air there just felt better. Sydney didn't do a thing for me, but I'd move to Melbourne in a heartbeat.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 13, 2006, at 20:47:19
In reply to Re: Im shocked, posted by willyee on March 11, 2006, at 13:53:48
> p.s i thought i read a post about rj having a cist found on his brain,seems to be gone.
I moved it to Psycho-Babble Health. Sorry if that was confusing.
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on March 13, 2006, at 21:51:28
In reply to Re: rj having a cist, posted by Dr. Bob on March 13, 2006, at 20:47:19
Thanks Dr. Bob Fondly, Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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