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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jclint on January 31, 2006, at 13:46:42
Not sure if this has been brought up, but there was an interesting development a few days ago about the renaissance of interest in using psychedelics as a psychiatric tool. Here is an article from the guardian, a broadsheet UK newspaper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/story/0,,1694710,00.html
It seems that research into this area was quickly gaining momentum in the 50s and 60s, but was halted when substances such as LSD gained notority as a social menace before the effects could be properly researched. After reading some of the case studies from the 50s/60s, I think it is a huge shame that such potentially beneficial drugs became taboo within the psychiatric community. Their potential to severely damage mental health, which became apparent in the 60s, became widely acknowledged. But the evidence into their theraputic qualities, which were massively significant, appear to have been whitewashed over, perhaps understandably.
There is no denying that these drugs are hugely powerful, and sometimes hugely damage mental health. But it makes sense, that the same power perhaps has the smae potential to be hugely beneficial? I think careful and objective dialogue and research into this new technique can only be a good thing, surely?
It will be interesting to see what implications this research has on the accepted definition of psychiatry... hmmm.
Posted by john berk on January 31, 2006, at 15:38:13
In reply to Future of psychiatric medicine?, posted by jclint on January 31, 2006, at 13:46:42
Hi, I found that link incredibly interesting,
it seems that delving into the unconscious has become a taboo subject, whether with LSD, or just plain psychotherapy, everthing now is cbt, or a prescribed med to take away symptoms, no more getting to the bottom of causation!!
i wonder if plain old psychotherapy, and other methods of tapping the unconscious will ever make a comeback, something to ponder....john
Posted by forgetful mary on January 31, 2006, at 18:55:43
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine? » jclint, posted by john berk on January 31, 2006, at 15:38:13
I know of someone who took LSD back in the day....she became a schizophrenic.......
who wants to take THAT chance???
> Hi, I found that link incredibly interesting,
> it seems that delving into the unconscious has become a taboo subject, whether with LSD, or just plain psychotherapy, everthing now is cbt, or a prescribed med to take away symptoms, no more getting to the bottom of causation!!
> i wonder if plain old psychotherapy, and other methods of tapping the unconscious will ever make a comeback, something to ponder....john
Posted by fires on January 31, 2006, at 19:07:35
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine? » jclint, posted by john berk on January 31, 2006, at 15:38:13
>>...everthing now is cbt, or a prescribed med to take away symptoms, no more getting to the bottom of causation!!
I think there's a lot going on to get to the bottom of causation: PET scans (imaging), advances in immunology, genetics, etc...
I can't imagine what brain damage (I think there's damage even at low doses of ecstacy)can do to help
psych disorders. I've seen teens sucking on pacifiers to help with ecstacy induced tooth grinding.
> i wonder if plain old psychotherapy, and other methods of tapping the unconscious will ever make a comeback, something to ponder....johnI sure hope not! Freud said: "I have found little that is "good" about human beings on the whole. In my experience most of them are trash, no matter whether they publicly subscribe to this or that ethical doctrine or to none at all. That is something that you cannot say aloud, or perhaps even think."
Posted by jclint on January 31, 2006, at 19:12:43
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine? » jclint, posted by john berk on January 31, 2006, at 15:38:13
Yea indeed.
I think its perhaps some of the thinking these days is flawed. It seems that if a condition is not helped by talking therapy, the medicinal route is pursued more vigourously. While I firmly believe that the recognition of biological causes of mental illness is a positive step, I think that sometimes people are banded in the 'biological causes' group simply because CBT/councelling/whatever, has not helped them at all, when in fact their problems may by psychological afterall. Perhaps psychedelic therapy could benefit those whose problems are psychological, but are resistant to conventional therapy.
When you think about it, it is accepted that our psychiatric drugs are not perfect, and that we need to continue to create new, unique, more efficient, and more powerful drugs. But it seems that there is very little development in the 'talking therapies', as it seems we think we have got it right. But maybe a breakthrough in psychedelic therapy would do for psychological mental illness what the invention of antipsychotics and mood stabilizers did for biological mental illness...
You are totally right about the subconcious being a taboo concept. CBT etc are good, but are treatments, rather than cures, generally. And drugs are even moreso, just treatments. It seems, from the old research, that if psychedelics can help, they could be a cure rather than a treatment, in the respect that one or several administrations could provide permenent or long term remission. I have read accounts of people under psychadelic therapy equating one session to 5 or 10 years of therapy. Without sounding too new-agey (I'm a very scientific person really!), the non western cultures are far more in touch with their subconsious, be it Buddhism or shamanism or whatever. And the western world has a far greater problem with mental illness. Perhaps the key to the vast majority of these illnesses (not including the obviously biological ones) is having the ability to explore your own subconcious, and maybe this will become more accepted, especially if the amount of mental illness keeps increasing.
I'm sorry if my posts here sound self-involved :) I'm getting carried away. Hope I don't sound anti-med - I'm actually very pro-med. Just interesting to see if something will take its place in the future.
John :)
Posted by jclint on January 31, 2006, at 19:35:07
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine?, posted by forgetful mary on January 31, 2006, at 18:55:43
> I know of someone who took LSD back in the day....she became a schizophrenic.......
> who wants to take THAT chance???
We need clinical research in order to identify the risks, so that it is not a game of chance. Just as an analogy:When barbituates were invented, people died. After research, it was realised that taking a little too much resulted in death, but the right amount produced very beneficial results. Pychedelics have yet to have that research conducted. It may be, that like barbituates, the cause of the awful effects can be identified, and then removed - this may be simple, who knows? :)
Posted by jclint on January 31, 2006, at 19:53:27
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine? » john berk, posted by fires on January 31, 2006, at 19:07:35
I really agree that these advances are really positive steps. But as important as the biological research is, there is no way that all psychiatric problems can be given a biological causation. I'm not for or against this therapy, its to soon to have any opinion, but I think it would be negligent to ignore a potentially powerful tool that we know very little about.
Posted by Phillipa on January 31, 2006, at 20:01:11
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine? » fires, posted by jclint on January 31, 2006, at 19:53:27
I don't see how a drug can create schizophenia. It has a biological basis. At least that is my understanding of it. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by john berk on January 31, 2006, at 20:23:51
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine?, posted by forgetful mary on January 31, 2006, at 18:55:43
Hi
I also have friends who were incapacitated by LSD, and many other "street" drugs, i'm sorry about your friend, but i'm not applauding or advocating LSD for the masses, but just the fact that something new may be tryed in a clinical setting, i have ocd, and would sure like to know if there are unconscious problems i am not aware of, my prozac hasn't taken me very far with my obsessive anxiety!! i personally would not take LSD under any circumstances, but if one person in a clinical setting can gain insight into their emotional problems
i would have to say that is progress!!
i also think psychotherapy can be useful for some, not all of Freuds idea's are totally irrelevant! [imho]..john
Posted by djmmm on February 1, 2006, at 8:30:49
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine?, posted by Phillipa on January 31, 2006, at 20:01:11
> I don't see how a drug can create schizophenia. It has a biological basis. At least that is my understanding of it. Fondly, Phillipa
I think HIGH doses and CHRONIC use of methamphetamine can cause symptoms similar to schizophrenia
Posted by jclint on February 1, 2006, at 12:24:01
In reply to Re: Future of psychiatric medicine?, posted by Phillipa on January 31, 2006, at 20:01:11
Yea, it would seem that these drugs that appear to create schizophrenia actually just accelerate its onset in people who are predisposed to it. At least that's what all the research into cannabis harm is suggesting, I believe. John :)
Posted by pseudoname on February 1, 2006, at 13:01:07
In reply to Future of psychiatric medicine?, posted by jclint on January 31, 2006, at 13:46:42
Thanks for the article link.
> renaissance of interest in using psychedelics as a psychiatric tool
I recently got a lot of benefit for my treatment-resistant depression from a drug that's socially, legally, politically, and medically disdained (an opioid). Fortunately, some people were willing to take risks and endure criticism to develop it and do research. I'm all for doing research on anything that looks promising.
I've seen suggestions for LSD clinical use before, and I hope that at least *some* good research using these, as you say, extremely powerful chemicals (or their derivatives or micro-doses or whatever) will take place. As you also say, our present meds are inadequate.
But I personally would be disappointed if the research were simply to use LSD to look for yet more "secrets" in the "unconscious". That's not a new or original or promising approach. It seems to me actually a very narrow and completely Western idea. It's like an extractive mining industry: "These buried mental treasures must be brought out and dealt with by any means!" From the Guardian article, it sounds like that's the sort of Freudian research that was done in the past with LSD.
I know from my own recent experience that drugs CAN help psychotherapy a lot. But I think we have enough experience with psychoanalysis to know that it tantilizingly *promises* useful secrets but never delivers them, with or without drugs, not any time in the last 100 years. Even Freud decided the supposed "secrets" he uncovered weren't helpful in themselves but only in "working through" them. The thing is, more direct, effective working-through can be done every day by anyone, without any knowledge of the buried "origins" of his or her neurosis.
What would seem radical (and non-Western), to me, would be thinking, "There may or may not be such unconscious secrets controlling my feelings and behavior. I can live a good life without knowing the answer." Or even, "The answer cannot be known." Westerners really don't like that idea.
(Sorry, I'm not meaning to preach. This is a great thread, and I couldn't resist joining in.)
Posted by john berk on February 1, 2006, at 15:06:03
In reply to interesting » jclint, posted by pseudoname on February 1, 2006, at 13:01:07
Hi
i didn't mean to "bang on" too enthusiastly
about delving the unconscious yesterday, but it seems that contemporary treatment has now hit a "wall", as evidenced by so many still sufering here on the board, i am in touch on-line with quite a few more, i think all possibilities
should be explored, in my case, cbt has been helpful, prozac has put a "floor" under my depression, but something is lacking, i've tryed meditation, i exercise everyday without fail,but still i get this feeling that motivating factors are at work, in an unconscious capacity, [totally my opinion,] i have been accused of self-sabatoge in my progress, and as much as i want and need to get better
i can't help but feel something is amiss!
it just seems that the lack of psychiactric practioners [back in the day one person of course would oversee your meds and therapy, and you could actually access this person readily by phone]] brings to the fore a feeling of take this pill, follow this path, and you will be cured, if not, you just aren't trying hard enough!!
i do beleive sometimes it is best to let "sleeping dogs lie", i don't think every nook of the unconscious is worth, or beneficial to explore, i guess i am just frustrated, and would like to see more than the "quick fix" proposed.
i hope i haven't offended anyone or sounded too "old school", but more options would give more hope i beleive...john
Posted by pseudoname on February 1, 2006, at 18:17:11
In reply to Re: interesting, posted by john berk on February 1, 2006, at 15:06:03
> i didn't mean to "bang on" too enthusiastly
Hey, John. I hope *I* didn't bang too much, LOL. I have these knee-jerk reactions whenever semi-Freudian topics come up, and I find myself posting "cautionary" warnings like they were wallpaper. It's probably from spending so many years & tens of thousands ($) in psychoanalysis without getting helped.
> i guess i am just frustrated, and would like to see more than the "quick fix" proposed
Yeah. I'd be very happy with a "quick fix" if it really worked, but it doesn't – not for most people on these boards, anyway.
> still i get this feeling that motivating factors are at work
In my case, I think there are SO MANY motivating factors at work, most of which will probably always remain mostly unconscious to me, that I decided continuing to look for them as a solution was counter-productive. Looking for them isn't bad, but it won't cure my mood or my behavior.
I guess that's why I felt whatever LSD could be used for, using it to find hidden motivating factors would not seem (to me) to be very promising.
My current personal strategy is
(a) using my deviant, off-label med AND
(b) trying to maintain a quasi-Buddhist "freedom" for my good & bad feelings as they come up.Allowing my feelings to occur more fully with less resistance and without trying to understand them has led to other, older, unexpected thoughts & feelings coming up. Some are wonderful, some are scary.
Before I found my current medication, the quasi-Buddhist therapy approach wasn't helping much. Now it's gradually becoming noticeably more helpful.
Posted by jclint on February 1, 2006, at 18:38:28
In reply to interesting » jclint, posted by pseudoname on February 1, 2006, at 13:01:07
Pseudoname, I agree with that.
Its interesting. I would certainly like to believe that some of the more outlandish reported properties of these chemicals could be used, on top of the Freud-ish bits. They could be used as regression tools, but perhaps more unique purposes that that, hopefully.
I really hate delving into this area, but certain effects of hallucinogens may be used theraputically, OUTSIDE finding causation. For example, some (are reported to) 'disconnect the ego from the mind', and therefore one could hypothetically view one's thinking patterns and neuroses from an outside perspective, and in far more detail than anyone else ever could. It sounds crazy, but probably has a legitimate scientific explaination - the activation of certain parts of the brain, or what you will. But surely such a phenomenon would prove a completely UNIQUE method of treating mental illness.
Goodness, I could write for hours thinking of this stuff!
I will try and find a report I read recently in a book, which amazed me. It was a study into users of 'ayahuasca', an amazonian traditional hallucinogen. The report is very clinical and objective, and its results might interest people interested in this sort of field. I'll try and post it somewhere, if I can find it online.
Posted by gibber on February 1, 2006, at 18:59:43
In reply to Re: interesting » pseudoname, posted by jclint on February 1, 2006, at 18:38:28
We may all be getting off the topics of meds here, but this is all very compelling. It seems to me that whether you're analyzing oneself with or without hallucinogens we're still doing the same thing. Drug induced analysis is simply a more entertaining form. I'm not say don't do it, but I doubt there will be any relief in terms of mentall health. If on the other hand LSD 'cures' some of the biological causes of the illness then I think its very worthwhile. Sometimes I think psychoanalysis is no more than intellectual entertainment that's a product of western thought. After 2 years of that stuff with a professional I learned a little about myself but gleaned no symptomatic relief.
I remember reading of bit of pop psychology the other day that said people who analyze their problems are no happier than those who don't. It's my experience that that is true. Despite all this I'll be going to my first talk therapy appointment in two years this Friday. But i'm going in thinking that it might help to cope with the feelings by talking about them and help me make decisions in my life that lessen the burden. I fully believe that this disease will have a genetic cure in the future, once we understand this mysterious brain of ours.
Posted by john berk on February 1, 2006, at 20:57:40
In reply to Re: interesting » john berk, posted by pseudoname on February 1, 2006, at 18:17:11
Hi, No
you didn't "bang on" atall, [i picked that phrase up from my friend in the u.k.,] lol, I enjoyed your response and your enthusiasim for the discussion. part of my problem at the moment is my pdoc kind of left me hanging, right in the middle of weaning off prozac, and i guess some of my distaste for the present forms of treatment are a result, plus i am a "seeker', i'm fascinated with buddist philosphy too.
i'm so happy you have found the right med to make your practice more enlightening!!i am reading at present "the power of now" by Eckhart Tolle, i recommend it highly, he beleives as long as the "ego" is running your life, you will never be happy, that the "ego" is a derived sense of self that needs to be defended and fed constantly,[i.e. possesions, money, education, special abilities]. i think that if we can somehow drop ego identification, we can know our true selves. so i think that is where i find myself questioning present thinking, but you are so right, we will always have underlying drives and motivations we will never be able to acknowledge!! [i've also spent many pesos on talk therapy, lol]
i'm sorry this post has gotten away from the subject of meds, i am still pro med, i know i will always be trying something, it is just the original post and link just drew my attention to the fact that something is "new" in the pursuit of mental health!! since this may be off the med site forum if you would like to babble mail me, please feel free, this is all quite interesting!!
i may be back on prozac for the time being until i sort things out, thanks for your insight..john [also thanks to everyone else who resonded].
Posted by fires on February 1, 2006, at 21:00:21
In reply to Re: interesting, posted by gibber on February 1, 2006, at 18:59:43
Very well said! I agree with all of your major points.
I also agree with your statement about a genetic cure. Genetics holds the key to real cures. What constitutes a cure is debatable, but most experts seem to agree that there are currently no true cures for any illnesses at this time -- only effective treatments, antidotes, and vaccines.
> We may all be getting off the topics of meds here, but this is all very compelling. It seems to me that whether you're analyzing oneself with or without hallucinogens we're still doing the same thing. Drug induced analysis is simply a more entertaining form. I'm not say don't do it, but I doubt there will be any relief in terms of mentall health. If on the other hand LSD 'cures' some of the biological causes of the illness then I think its very worthwhile. Sometimes I think psychoanalysis is no more than intellectual entertainment that's a product of western thought. After 2 years of that stuff with a professional I learned a little about myself but gleaned no symptomatic relief.
> I remember reading of bit of pop psychology the other day that said people who analyze their problems are no happier than those who don't. It's my experience that that is true. Despite all this I'll be going to my first talk therapy appointment in two years this Friday. But i'm going in thinking that it might help to cope with the feelings by talking about them and help me make decisions in my life that lessen the burden. I fully believe that this disease will have a genetic cure in the future, once we understand this mysterious brain of ours.
Posted by pseudoname on February 2, 2006, at 15:34:46
In reply to Re: interesting, posted by gibber on February 1, 2006, at 18:59:43
Posted by gibber on February 2, 2006, at 18:13:20
In reply to Good luck Friday! (nm) » gibber, posted by pseudoname on February 2, 2006, at 15:34:46
This is the end of the thread.
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