![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on January 27, 2006, at 13:59:17
In reply to Dont do it!!!!, posted by Daniela23 on January 27, 2006, at 8:44:17
> Shalom
Peace to you too, Daniela.
You are fortunate indeed that any psychobiological pathology you are afflicted with has gone into remission. Often, it is the natural course of affective disorders that they be episodic. Doctors and patients are sometimes fooled into thinking that what they did or did not do was responsible for any changes seen in the course of the illness.
I think it is unfair to generalize one's own experience with an illness to everyone else who suffers from it. When it comes to the brain, small biological differences between individuals can often present as profound differences in presentation and treatment response.
I believe it would have been more appropriate, and certainly more constructive, if you had simply reported your own experience with bipolar disorder rather than suggest to others that they have no better option than to choose the same course of action that you chose for yourself. Furthermore, I find it needlessly provocative that you use terms like "pop pills" to characterize those who don't follow your method of self-treatment or non-treatment. I question whether or not you really do respect "pill-poppers" the way that you claim to in that one sentence. It seems contradictory to the rest of your post.
Perhaps the rest of us are clueless, having been brainwashed by the multitude of malevolant capitalists that profit from our lack of intelligence. It is not intelligence that is lacking, but information. Besides your anecdotal self-report of witnessing your bipolar disorder going into remission without pharmacological intervention, what other corrobarative information do you wish to offer to dissuade people from taking medication for their mental illnesses?
- Scott
Posted by Etienne78 on January 27, 2006, at 15:14:49
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!! - We are all clueless... » Daniela23, posted by SLS on January 27, 2006, at 13:59:17
Hey All,
For everyone getting totally riled up about pill poppin', all i can say is... C H I L L.
To be actually taking medications, many of you seem quite irritable at a question of semantics.I think that there are many ways of approaching a problem or "disease". Personally, i applaud the fact that someone would stand out and say "stop taking the stuff put out by the system."
I invite you to question why we all have these problems in the first place. Are we defective human beings or are we products of a defective society. Capitalism strives on the misery of others. It is no secret that many Corporations put out medications without proper research, to recall them years later saying they can have a previously unknown side-effect. Of course, in the process they got several billion dollars richer. Let's all just face the cold hard truth. In these times, many of us are still just guinea pigs for Big Brother pharmaceuticals.
I know many of you might lash out at this post. Gladly we are not in Saudi Arabia, where i would possibly be stoned to death for it. So, in view of that, i just wish you all a peaceful time here on earth.
Ciao,
Etienne
Posted by jamestheyonger on January 27, 2006, at 15:21:44
In reply to Popin' them thangs!, posted by Etienne78 on January 27, 2006, at 15:14:49
I invite you to question why we all have these problems in the first place. Are we defective human beings or are we products of a defective society. Capitalism strives on the misery of others. It is no secret that many Corporations put out medications without proper research, to recall them years later saying they can have a previously unknown side-effect. Of course, in the process they got several billion dollars richer. Let's all just face the cold hard truth. In these times, many of us are still just guinea pigs for Big Brother pharmaceuticals.
I think it is unfair to generalize peoples experiences on this board with the general population. People come here because they are having trouble with meds so this site in no way is representative of most peoples experiences with meds.
Posted by flmm on January 27, 2006, at 16:17:40
In reply to Re: Popin' them thangs!, posted by jamestheyonger on January 27, 2006, at 15:21:44
Hey, if these drugs had no benefit, we would not take them period! For me, they make me functional enough to go to work every day, drive 2 hours a day on the freeway, without having a heart attack. I have a decent life at home, sleep well, eat well.etc. Without Lexapro, i am a lunatic! I was before meds, and I am if I stopped taking them. Getting off them is hard, because they are potent, not because of a conspiracy! The brain is complicated, you can't take meds for it and not expect side effects, or to be able to go on and off at will. If they help, great. If not find out what does. I guarantee you, if they keep you sane, just take your pill and forget about it. Happiness is an internal search not found in a pill, that is not what they are for!
Posted by linkadge on January 27, 2006, at 16:29:38
In reply to Popin' them thangs!, posted by Etienne78 on January 27, 2006, at 15:14:49
You can eat all the best foods and exercise everyday and still have high blood pressure. You did know that didn't you ?
Linkadge
Posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2006, at 19:29:54
In reply to Re: Popin' them thangs! » Etienne78, posted by linkadge on January 27, 2006, at 16:29:38
flmm
>You have no clue!willyee
>i think your post was highly insulting,DARE YOU REFER TO ME AS A PILL POPPER !jamestheyonger
>This sounds more like denial than instinct, to me.Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if your own feelings were hurt. Remember, two wrongs do not make a right.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
gg acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2006, at 19:32:09
In reply to Please be civil: flmm, willyee, jamestheyonger, posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2006, at 19:29:54
Daniela23
>Your defensiveness is unwarranted, since clearly my post was not directed to you.Linkadge
>Pill Popper is very insultingSLS
>I find it needlessly provocative that you use terms like "pop pills" to characterize those who don't follow your method of self-treatment or non-treatment.Please don't post anything that jumps to conclusions about others or could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
gg acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2006, at 19:51:53
In reply to Please be civil: Daniela23, Linkadge, SLS, posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2006, at 19:32:09
Everyone needs to do and take what works for them period point blank. And I don't believe anyone thinks a pill will solve all their problems. Do You? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2006, at 19:53:37
In reply to Re: Please be civil: Daniela23, Linkadge, SLS, posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2006, at 19:51:53
I should have changed the subject. Sorry guys. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2006, at 19:55:08
In reply to Sorry Link, Willyee, SLS, posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2006, at 19:53:37
I couldn't remember all of you sorry again. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by jamestheyonger on January 27, 2006, at 20:58:54
In reply to Please be civil: flmm, willyee, jamestheyonger, posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2006, at 19:29:54
I am voting with my feet.
> jamestheyonger
> >This sounds more like denial than instinct, to me.
Posted by mogger on January 28, 2006, at 2:36:33
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!! Clueless!, posted by flmm on January 27, 2006, at 10:35:40
Please don't try to force your ideas and thoughts on others who are benefiting on anti-depressants like myself. Please mind your own business and worry about yourself and don't douse the positive support that this board gives.
mogger
Posted by rfs on January 28, 2006, at 5:06:00
In reply to Dont do it!!!!, posted by Daniela23 on January 27, 2006, at 8:44:17
With all due respect & pill poppers. I don't feel respected. I tried until age 43 to do it with out meds, 15 years of therapy, very good, but not enough. For the most part, the first 43 years of my life were varying degrees of a living hell,24 hours a day. 10 years on medication have had its ups and downs, side effects, etc. but do you think that I would choice 3,650 days to take medication if It was not helping me greatly. You need to realize that not eveyone is you, or has the same problems make up as you. Should all cardiac patients work it out... no, some need life style changes, some medication, some open heart surgery, your not in a position to decide and you could be seriously hurting people that you don't even know by making such sweeping generalizations.
Ray
Posted by Tomatheus on January 28, 2006, at 15:35:59
In reply to Dont do it!!!!, posted by Daniela23 on January 27, 2006, at 8:44:17
Daniela,
You wrote:
"You do not need meds to make you better; they will not make the underlying part of what is 'wrong with you' go away"
I agree with others here who have said that your post appears to contain some inaccurate generalizations that could clearly be offensive to many of the members here. Even though success stories on this board are relatively uncommon in comparison to the problems that people report, success stories do exist. Some of those who have posted success stories here tried several times to go without meds only to see their symptoms return. They are feeling better only because they endured a lengthy process of trial and error with meds until they found either a med or a combo that helped them achieve remission. Others here, despite the fact that they write mostly about the things that are wrong with their medications, are doing "better" on meds in the strictest sense of the word. In other words, although these patients may not feel that they are achieving remission from their illnesses, they feel noticeably better on the meds that they're taking than they felt during the periods when they were med-free.
I would consider myself to be one of these patients. I personally waited years watching my depressive symptoms worsen and eventually level out to a point where I would just about always feel moderately to severely depressed (on occasion, I would just feel mildly depressed -- usually after sleep deprivation). I tried making various lifestyle changes and going to therapy, and even though I saw the positive values in these endeavors, they did nothing for my depression. I've also been med-free several times between med trials, and I would always end up feeling exactly the same way that I did before I was taking meds. Even though I do not think I have quite acheived a state of remission, I feel a lot more functional and productive than I was when I was taking no meds, and my emotional reactions to the stimuli in my environment are a lot more consistent with the "normal" reactions to these stimuli than I was when I was depressed and med-free. In other words, I no longer feel deeply depressed in situations when everything inside of me except for my affective state is telling me that I should be feeling happy. Without meds, I would feel depressed when I'm supposed to feel happy, depressed when I'm supposed to feel sad, and of course, depressed when I'm supposed to feel anywhere in between. Now, I can usually experience at least a little bit of joy in response to doing the things that I truly like. In this sense, I would say that I am doing at least somewhat better because of the meds I'm taking.
Now, do I claim that all of the depressed patients on this board and elsewhere are exactly like me? Hell no, I don't. As research data indicate, some patients with depression and other psychiatric disorders respond quite favorably to therapy alone are don't require medications to achieve remission. It is my belief that others, however, are more like myself and have symptoms that only respond slightly (if at all) to things like therapy, exercise, and personal commitments (and actions) to pursue more fulfulling endeavors and avoid excessively stressful activities. For patients who experience no significant benefits in their psychiatric symptoms after trying non-pharmaceutical treatments, the next choice is usually one between taking meds (and hoping that they might at least produce some positive results) and continuing to be hampered by debilitating psychiatric symptoms day in and day out. And as the posts here indicate, some patients still do not receive significant benefits from medications. But unless I'm imagining things, it is clear that there are more than a handful of patients who have benefited significantly from medications (and not just any medications, I mean the "right" medications) after having remained fully symptomatic for years as a result of either taking no medications or the "wrong" medications.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is strong evidence (both here and in the psychiatric literature) that some patients require medications to achieve remission, or least a partial remission. This, of course, is not the case with all patients. But in saying "you do not need meds to make you better," you made a generalization that is clearly inconsistent with the experiences of several members here, including myself. After trying non-pharmaceutical approaches to treating my depressive symptoms without success, seeking psychopharmacological treatment as a last resort, going through unsuccessful medication trials for about three years, and finally finding a medication that has allowed me to achieve partial remission (and may ultimately allow for full remission if augmented in just the right way), do you think that I feel offended by your statement? You betcha.
Finally, with respect to your statement that medications cannot make the "underlying part of 'what is wrong with you' go away," how can you make this statement with 100 percent certainty? Granted, there is no way to say for sure with respect to any given patient to what extent their medications might be getting to the underlying pathology or pathologies causing their illnesses. And of course, no doctor can say with 100 percent certainty that a patient does have an underlying biochemical abnormality simply by making a diagnosis using a questionnaire. But you said that meds "will not" make the underlying cause(s) of a disorder go away. This, to me, is an absolute statement. But seriously, how do you know for sure that medications do not treat the actual causes of psychiatric illnesses in *any* cases? I'm not saying that they do for sure, but unless you're privy to some all-conslusive research information that I'm not, I doubt that you know for sure that meds absolutely cannot treat the causes of psychiatric illnesses.
So, all in all, I find it perplexing that you decided to begin your post by saying "with all due respect" when you then proceeded to make a statement that would obviously offend many of the members here due to its lack of accuracy. Perhaps you did not mean to generalize or to offend in your original post. But judging from the responses of other members here, it seems that your post came across that way to a lot of people.
Tomatheus
Posted by gardenergirl on January 28, 2006, at 16:15:19
In reply to This board is repressively and poorly moderated, posted by jamestheyonger on January 27, 2006, at 20:58:54
As previously requested, posts related to adminstrative actions should be directed to the Admin board.
Here is a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060111/msgs/603799.htmlRegards,
gg
Posted by fenix on January 28, 2006, at 19:43:02
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!! » willyee, posted by linkadge on January 27, 2006, at 13:21:44
I disagree, you are taking the easy way out. I should know.
When you are in various pains, drug commercials and pressures from doctors make these drugs appear to be a dream come true.
Come on, who wouldn't want to escape depression and anxiety. Humans have been afflicted with this stuff for ever. Well, the drug pamphlets, the doctors who don't warn you of the horrific side-effects, the television commericials, they sure do make it seem like there is a very easy way out. Too bad it is a lie.
I know of many, including myself who have had their lives destroyed forever because of these drugs, it seems so common place for me to look on the news to find another illegal act done by a person that was on these drugs. Oh, and it really is the drugs fault let me tell you, these things truly disinhibit.
Before I ever took SSRIs and neuroleptics I was normal, I just had some anxiety. A very kind person who used his intuition to figure what other people were thinking, and thus so that conversations with them would be valuable. Yes, Providence was with me. However, after being on effexor for a few months I did disgusting things: I once saw a cockaroach lying on the ground and decided to eat it because I never ate a bug before and was curious, I started to get interested in Angelic Script and ended up taking a razor blade and cutting various scripts into my stomach. I was working at a store and asked a girl up front if she wanted to go into the back and have sex, I walked down the roads near my house to sacred areas of those fallen in wars only to spit at them and hump the monuments when no one was looking.... I did various other things of disgust, no one was hurt in the process however.
These actions my friends where all caused by Effexor, I was shocked after stopping the drug for a few months at the behaviour I was having. I once asked a psychologist I was seeing what Freud and Jung would think about these drugs, he said that they would've of probably been relieved. I strongly disagree, these drugs change who you are and why would any passionate man of the mind deal with such a travesty?
I have seen much of the destruction, the wiping out. Those with Tardive Akathisia (like myself) Dyskinisia, Parkinson's, diabetes, pancreatis... I then get defenses by people saying that it helped them. But, my dear friends, it is but an illusion, these drugs will catch up to you sooner or later.
I believe the greatest abomination of these past many years has not been terroism, but by our own "Doctors". The very people we look upon to help us in our desperate times of need.
Something is wrong, very very wrong.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 28, 2006, at 21:07:19
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!!, posted by fenix on January 28, 2006, at 19:43:02
Posted by gibber on January 28, 2006, at 23:29:56
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!!, posted by fenix on January 28, 2006, at 19:43:02
Fenix,
I'm very sorry you had such a bad experience on Effexor and I'm sure others have had similar experiences too on similar drugs. We're all taking a risk when we put something foreign into our bodies. The truth is many people don't have the reaction that you did and so it is hard for everyone to feel the same about drugs and drug companies. There are plenty of stories where people have had great success on meds and it would not be possible to convince them to stop given your story. It is much too simplified to say drugs are all bad or drugs are all good. There are as many stories as there are people. A 'bell curve' may be a metaphor for how people respond to medication. Some have an amazing response and go completely simptom free, a lot have a moderate response or no response, and in a few cases people get worse and they cause harm. I'm so sorry you had a bad experience but life is not fair. I don't think they should stop producing Effexor because of your response but we should certainly take it into consideration when assessing the risks. In another note I do believe that Freud predicted there would be a chemical means of treating these disorders. I'm also unsure what people mean when they say 'underlying causes'. I'll assume that they're saying these illness are caused by psychological or environmental factors like bad parenting or abuse. Its true this does have an effect but for many on this board we've addressed those factors and for me I've put them behind me. I've done the therapy and the self analysis and I still feel bad. This is an illness of the brain and not the mind for many of us and meds can address that.I wish everyone peace in their stuggle.
Posted by summerflowers on January 29, 2006, at 6:32:11
In reply to Dont do it!!!!, posted by Daniela23 on January 27, 2006, at 8:44:17
To the original poster,Daniella23,thankyou.If I saw my child about to take those pills I would quick smart knock them out of their hands because they are dangerous. On saying that,I have struggled most of my life to heal myself.I WANT HEALING IWANT TO GET BETTER.Im sick of trying.BUT!!!I will research BEFORE I take anything not after.Thats my advice to anyone!!!
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 29, 2006, at 8:38:19
In reply to Dont do it!!!!, posted by Daniela23 on January 27, 2006, at 8:44:17
> With all due respect to all you handling your own use or the repercussions of others use of medication....
Please don't post under more than one name at the same time. If for any reason you feel you need to change your posting name, please follow these steps:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#names
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 29, 2006, at 8:38:24
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!!, posted by fenix on January 28, 2006, at 19:43:02
> many of you seem quite irritable at a question of semantics.
>
> Etienne> you are taking the easy way out.
>
> fenixPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
And please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by greywolf on January 29, 2006, at 18:15:49
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!! - We are all clueless... » Daniela23, posted by SLS on January 27, 2006, at 13:59:17
I think it may help to bear in mind when reading this thread that BP is a particularly pernicious illness for which many people never find a pharmaceutical "cure." You can go through tons of meds without success, and it does get incredibly frustrating.
Consequently, my guess is that you may find a greater percentage of BP sufferers eventually come to the belief that meds are a fraud. And I would speculate that those diagnosed with BP spectrum and treating without success are most likely to have that belief among bipolars generally given the uncertainty of many of the spectrum diagnoses and reported lower success rates with pharmacological treatments.
I find that a good rule of thumb is to educate yourself, work closely with your doc, and restrain yourself from the urge to preach in a way that diminishes the choices others make.
Posted by Danieli23 on January 30, 2006, at 18:10:17
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!!, posted by linkadge on January 27, 2006, at 11:37:50
Hi Linkadge,
Thank you for your post. I did not find it offensive although I did find the reference to 'my denial' to be so. I am not in denial and in fact struggle daily with, among other issues, fear of falling into a depression, which is inevitable.
Anyway, regarding the morphometric and neurochemical abnormalities that are evidenced in BP brains that you list, indeed it seems that neuronal activity, structural change/plasticity could be enhanced by LT lithium use: How would you square the poss increase in neural viability & functioning (indicated through grey matt) qua lithium use (eg brain power!) with much evidence that suggests that there is an extremely high creative mental productivity associated with (manic episodes of) untreated BP? Also, structural changes supposedly take place over long periods; ST relief v LT changes....
Perhaps for your bro as well, I don't know, the largely pleasant, highly productive if alternately scary experiences of manic episodes, and reasonably chill stable periods in between episodes simply outweigh what are perceived as overly negative effects (I do not think it is fair to label them 'side' as this connotes secondary, eg lesser in sig) of medications so as to rule out their viability.
Are you really willing to make the rather general statement: "for those who choose to continue taking it, the burden of side effects does not surpass the burden of the disease." I do not mean this facetiously and would appreciate your feedback.I would maintain that not taking medication is a viable option for some, & I still believe it is a highly under-considered one and incidentally, feel that engaging this alternative does have a place on a board that deals with mental illness: 'not to take' is certainly part of drug questions; this fact was disrespected by many as they Chose to take my statements as an attack on their self/choices.
I think it is obvious that every individual ultimately makes the best choice for themselves and tolerance, here, can be part of feeling better for many.Best wishes,
Daniela> No offence, (and I cannot say for you because I don't know), but this attitude is *very* common among people with bipolar disorder. The attitude that one has the power to pull onesself out of one's illness.
>
> My older brother has bipolar disorder, and won't take meds. He has been depressed, and continues to have recurrent depressions. Whenever he gets better, he always attrubutes it to something within his own power that got him there.
>
> The depression will improve naturally on its own, as it does with the natural course of the illness, and it only seems natural to attribute it to somthing within one's power that got them well. But, correlation does not imply causation. For instance, self esteem will increase as depression improves. That does not mean that your self-esteem, or your self-motivation was actually what got you better!
>
> But we need to look at the facts. There are real, structural and biochemical abnormailities that have consistantly been found in bipolar disorder who do not medicate. Abnormalities like glial reductions in the fronal cortex, grey matter reductions, n-acetyl-aspartate, hippocampal volume abnormalities etc.
>
> I know that the case for antidepressants is confounded by the buisness of drug marketing, but whenever I start to think that the disease is fabricated, I need only to look a the case for lithium.
>
> Lithium is no money maker. It does make people high. It does work though. Of course it has some side effects, but for those who choose to continue taking it, the burden of side effects does not surpass the burden of the disease. Lithium does reduce suicide which is high in bipolar disorder.
>
> Nobody is asking you to take your medications, but please be mindfull of the possability that the parameters of your individual case may not extend to everbody.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
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Posted by jopo on January 30, 2006, at 18:33:35
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!!, posted by Danieli23 on January 30, 2006, at 18:10:17
if you had diabetes would you not take insulin?
if you had a headache would you take a pain relief tablet?
if you had a blood clot would you take the thinning agent to stop it travelling and causing chaos?
why is a physical illness any different to a psychiatric illness? if there are meds out there herbal or not that can help then why not try them? see if they help! thats all any of us can do keep trying!i wasn't offended by the term "pill popper" but i can see why others are! when i took illegal drugs...i was a pill popper...but just because i take an anti-depressant does not make me a pill popper! i find it to be a derogatory comment to make.
it may be slang...but then again so are so many words that i would never dream of calling anyone! yank, honkey, n**ger!!!!instead of preaching so loudly to everyone and pretty much telling them what to do with thier lives, why not just put across your point of view...whats worked well for you...instead of insulting people and telling them that they are wrong!
just mho
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2006, at 21:27:14
In reply to Re: Dont do it!!!!, posted by Danieli23 on January 30, 2006, at 18:10:17
When you're blocked, you're not supposed to post, so I'm going to ask Dr. Bob to double its duration, and I've deleted the other post.
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post should be directed to Admin. and should of course themselves be civil.
Regards,
gg acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
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