![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tomatheus on December 1, 2005, at 9:49:48
A few weeks ago, I said that I'd keep everyone posted on the results of my Nardil trial.
And well, I'm rather disappointed to report that I still haven't felt the noticeable "kick in" that most Nardil users tend to feel after four to six weeks of starting the medication. I've been at 60mg for 5 1/2 weeks now, but it's been nine weeks total. After feeling slightly improved during the first two weeks at 60mg (but still mostly depressed and sedated), I fell into a relatively deep depression after that point. I noticed that my level of energy increased slightly about a week or so ago, but it's basically a negative kind of energy. I still have little drive, and I definitely don't feel the least bit "pro-social." It sort of feels like being on Wellbutrin all over again.
So, once again, I've got a few questions...
Has anyone else experienced this at 60mg of Nardil? Do you think that there's still a realistic chance that it might kick in at this dose? Or would it be best to go up to 75mg at this point? Are there any Nardil users who didn't get the "kick in" feeling at 60mg, but did at a higher dose? If so, at what dose did it kick in? Do you have any other suggestions to offer?
As always, I would appreciate any help any of you could provide.
Thanks,
Tomatheus
Posted by Jedi on December 2, 2005, at 2:51:59
In reply to Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in, posted by Tomatheus on December 1, 2005, at 9:49:48
Tomatheus,
If your depression is atypical with social anxiety and nothing else has worked, I would bounce up to 75mg and see. The reported effective dose is 1mg/kg so a 165 pound man would probably need 75mg to be effective. When I first started Nardil I was also taking several milligrams of clonazepam. Some people say that this benzo depresses them, but some current research shows that it can be used at 3+mg for augmentation. Next to Nardil, clonazepam is the best med I have found for social anxiety. The kick that many people get when Nardil starts to work is probably hypomania. There is some research that suggests social anxiety is on one end of the bipolar scale. If you do experience extended hypomania, a mood stabilizer will probably be required. What is your diagnosis and are you taking anything else with the Nardil?
Be Well,
Jedi> A few weeks ago, I said that I'd keep everyone posted on the results of my Nardil trial.
>
> And well, I'm rather disappointed to report that I still haven't felt the noticeable "kick in" that most Nardil users tend to feel after four to six weeks of starting the medication. I've been at 60mg for 5 1/2 weeks now, but it's been nine weeks total. After feeling slightly improved during the first two weeks at 60mg (but still mostly depressed and sedated), I fell into a relatively deep depression after that point. I noticed that my level of energy increased slightly about a week or so ago, but it's basically a negative kind of energy. I still have little drive, and I definitely don't feel the least bit "pro-social." It sort of feels like being on Wellbutrin all over again.
>
> So, once again, I've got a few questions...
>
> Has anyone else experienced this at 60mg of Nardil? Do you think that there's still a realistic chance that it might kick in at this dose? Or would it be best to go up to 75mg at this point? Are there any Nardil users who didn't get the "kick in" feeling at 60mg, but did at a higher dose? If so, at what dose did it kick in? Do you have any other suggestions to offer?
>
> As always, I would appreciate any help any of you could provide.
>
> Thanks,
> Tomatheus
Posted by ace on December 2, 2005, at 9:19:20
In reply to Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in, posted by Tomatheus on December 1, 2005, at 9:49:48
>sorry friend, but I havent read the whole post.
All I can say is you should have been up to 90mg at the 6 week mark. Increase dose to 90mg NOW!!!!
Ace
Posted by Tomatheus on December 2, 2005, at 18:44:05
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by Jedi on December 2, 2005, at 2:51:59
Jedi,
Thanks for your response.
I was originally diagnosed with dysthymia, and then my pdoc decided to diagnose me with bipolar disorder (no specific subtype, although I don't meet the criteria for any of the existing DSM-IV bipolar subtypes) after my moods cycled between mild hypomania and severe depression when on Paxil. Basically, each hypomanic and depressive was about three to four days in length with no euthymia in between. In the 3+ years it's been since I stopped the Paxil, I've experienced nothing but dysthymia. Occasionally, I'd get some partial relief from some of the meds and combos I've tried, but all of my med trials with mood stabilizers, antidepressants, and combos of the two have been largely unsuccessful. I've tried going med free, and when I do so, I go right back to being dysthymic. There's been no hypomania whatsoever since I've stopped the Paxil - not even when I was on Wellbutrin, moclobemide, and Parnate, and not now on this Nardil trial.
As far as the symptoms of atypical depression are concerned, here is how I fit in:
* mood reactivity: yes, to an extent. I've definitely noticed a connection between the severity of my depressive states and my activity levels. Basically, I have a slight tendency to feel a little less depressed than I normally do if I'm more or less active all day (but this connection is not 100 percent absolute).
* increased appetite or weight gain while depressed: no. Usually, my appetite is reduced when I'm depressed.
* oversleeping: yes! Although I'm sometimes able to force myself out of bed after six to eight hours with the help of an alarm, I have always had a tendency to oversleep, and it's always been extremely difficult to wake up in the morning. Without an alarm, I almost always sleep for at least 10 hours.
* leaden paralysis: yes.
* sensitivity to rejection: yes.According to Quitkin et al. (1988), atypical depression is defined by the presence of mood reactivity, in addition to at least two of the remaining four atypical symptoms of hyperphagia, hypersomnolence, leaden feeling, and sensitivity to rejection. Based on this definition, it seems clear that there are some atypical features associated with my depression. I did address the issue of atypical depression with my pdoc at one point, and he said that my depression was not atypcial because I did not overeat while depressed or sleep for at least 18 hours a night. I have never discussed the issue of social anxiety with my pdoc because I have always been iffy about the clinical significance of social anxiety. I wouldn't say that I necessarily experience *fear* in social situations, but I have always been extremely introverted. In fact, I was voted the quietest in my high school graduating class, if that's any indication.
So, that's my long and drawn response to your question about my diagnosis. I'm just taking Nardil right now, but there is a possibility that my pdoc might want to augment it if it does end up working at all. Since I have experienced hypomania before (even if it was only temporary and Paxil-induced), I'll continue to be on the lookout for it if (and probably when) I increase my Nardil dose to 75mg a day. At this point, I'm skeptical of ever feeling euthymic on Nardil, let alone hypomanic, but I'll definitely alert my pdoc and discuss augmentation strategies with him in the unlikely event that the Nardil goes from hardly working to working *too* well. I wasn't aware of the research on the connection between social anxiety and bipolar disorder, but I've read the reports of several research studies that have provided evidence of a link between atypical depression and cyclothymia/bipolar II. So, I definitely understand the need to look out for hypomania (not to mention that I do anyway because of my response to Paxil), and once again, I'll definitely be looking for signs of it. That's really not the effect I'm looking for - just euthymia. But right now, it seems I'm definitely getting a dopaminergic effect from the Nardil and possibly a noradregenic effect (similar to Wellbutrin), but the serotogenic effect that I felt on Paxil (too strongly when hypomanic), 5-HTP, and some B vitamin supplements hardly seems to be there at all right now on Nardil.
Anyway, enough rambling. Thanks again for your reply.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCE
Quitkin, F. M., Stewart, J. W., McGrath, P. J., Liebowitz, M. R., Harrison, W. M., Tricamo, E., et al. (1988). Phenelzine versus imipramine in the treatment of probable atypical depression: Defining syndrome boundaries of selective MAOI responders. American Journal of Psychiatry, 145, 306-11.
==
> Tomatheus,
> If your depression is atypical with social anxiety and nothing else has worked, I would bounce up to 75mg and see. The reported effective dose is 1mg/kg so a 165 pound man would probably need 75mg to be effective. When I first started Nardil I was also taking several milligrams of clonazepam. Some people say that this benzo depresses them, but some current research shows that it can be used at 3+mg for augmentation. Next to Nardil, clonazepam is the best med I have found for social anxiety. The kick that many people get when Nardil starts to work is probably hypomania. There is some research that suggests social anxiety is on one end of the bipolar scale. If you do experience extended hypomania, a mood stabilizer will probably be required. What is your diagnosis and are you taking anything else with the Nardil?
> Be Well,
> Jedi
>
> > A few weeks ago, I said that I'd keep everyone posted on the results of my Nardil trial.
> >
> > And well, I'm rather disappointed to report that I still haven't felt the noticeable "kick in" that most Nardil users tend to feel after four to six weeks of starting the medication. I've been at 60mg for 5 1/2 weeks now, but it's been nine weeks total. After feeling slightly improved during the first two weeks at 60mg (but still mostly depressed and sedated), I fell into a relatively deep depression after that point. I noticed that my level of energy increased slightly about a week or so ago, but it's basically a negative kind of energy. I still have little drive, and I definitely don't feel the least bit "pro-social." It sort of feels like being on Wellbutrin all over again.
> >
> > So, once again, I've got a few questions...
> >
> > Has anyone else experienced this at 60mg of Nardil? Do you think that there's still a realistic chance that it might kick in at this dose? Or would it be best to go up to 75mg at this point? Are there any Nardil users who didn't get the "kick in" feeling at 60mg, but did at a higher dose? If so, at what dose did it kick in? Do you have any other suggestions to offer?
> >
> > As always, I would appreciate any help any of you could provide.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tomatheus
>
>
Posted by Tomatheus on December 2, 2005, at 19:02:37
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by ace on December 2, 2005, at 9:19:20
> All I can say is you should have been up to 90mg at the 6 week mark. Increase dose to 90mg NOW!!!!
Ace,
I think I'll consider increasing the dose to 90mg if and when I get a poor response at 75mg/day. Some patients respond to Nardil at 60mg/day, others require 75mg/day, and yes, some (like yourself) find that the best dose is 90mg/day. But, with all due respect Mr. Nardil champ, the best dose for you is not necessarily the best dose for everyone. I don't think that it would be a good idea to just jump straight up to 90mg/day without first trying 75mg/day. There's no reason to take extra (and spend extra) if I don't need to.
And (once again with all due respect), don't you think your response was a little demanding. I've read in other posts that you've said that you're planning on becoming a psychiatrist. I don't know if saying things such as "increase dose to 90mg NOW!!!!" would make for good relations with your patients. Then again, it seems like such an approach is really not so far outside the norm in psychiatry. Hmmm. Maybe you would be well-suited for the profession, after all.
Tomatheus
Posted by Jedi on December 3, 2005, at 4:01:23
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Jedi, posted by Tomatheus on December 2, 2005, at 18:44:05
Tomatheus,
Here are a few recent abstracts on phenelzine therapy of atypical depression, social anxiety, and dysthymia.
JediPharmacological treatment of social anxiety disorder: a meta-analysis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12900950&query_hl=8Phenelzine efficacy in refractory social anxiety disorder: a case series.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12888407&query_hl=8Atypical Depression: A Reappraisal (Full Study)
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/159/9/1470Chronic treatment with the monoamine oxidase inhibitor phenelzine increases hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical activity in male C57BL/6 mice: relevance to atypical depression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15564336&query_hl=12Modafinil Augmentation of Phenelzine for Residual Fatigue in Dysthymia
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/9/1716-a
Posted by Tomatheus on December 3, 2005, at 9:19:59
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by Jedi on December 3, 2005, at 4:01:23
Thanks!
I think I already have one of the studies that you posted, but I'll definitely take a look at the rest of them.
Tomatheus
Posted by ed_uk on December 3, 2005, at 14:25:39
In reply to Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in, posted by Tomatheus on December 1, 2005, at 9:49:48
Hi T
>Do you think that there's still a realistic chance that it might kick in at this dose?
I don't think it's likely. 5 1/2 weeks is plenty of time to assess your response to 60mg, especially as you've been on Nardil for a total of nine weeks.
>Paxil........hypomania.......cycling
>negative kind of energy.Given the possibility that you may lie on the 'bipolar spectrum', it might be a good idea to try 67.5mg for a few weeks before increasing to 75mg (if necessary). I think it would be best to see your pdoc regularly as you increase the dose.
>mood stabilisers
How do you respond to.......
Lamictal?
Lithium?
Abilify?>Are there any Nardil users who didn't get the "kick in" feeling at 60mg, but did at a higher dose?
Certainly. Many people require higher doses than 60mg.
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 7:32:30
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » ace, posted by Tomatheus on December 2, 2005, at 19:02:37
> > All I can say is you should have been up to 90mg at the 6 week mark. Increase dose to 90mg NOW!!!!
>
> Ace,
>
> I think I'll consider increasing the dose to 90mg if and when I get a poor response at 75mg/day. Some patients respond to Nardil at 60mg/day,
Clinical trials have shown if no response after 4 -6 weeks at 60mg, increase dose.others require 75mg/day, and yes, some (like yourself) find that the best dose is 90mg/day. But, with all due respect Mr. Nardil champ, the best dose for you is not necessarily the best dose for everyone.
Just about everyone.
I don't think that it would be a good idea to just jump straight up to 90mg/day without first trying 75mg/day.
Man, it's cool for you to do want you and your MD want, but I personally would go straight to 90mg for maximum MAOI inhibition.
There's no reason to take extra (and spend extra) if I don't need to.
>
> And (once again with all due respect), don't you think your response was a little demanding.No.
I've read in other posts that you've said that you're planning on becoming a psychiatrist.
I'm a register in 2 months. So I am not 'planning', I am 'being' a psychiatrist. Arent I so good!!! ha ha!!
I don't know if saying things such as "increase dose to 90mg NOW!!!!" would make for good relations with your patients.I would not say that in a excited or agressive tone, I would strongly reccommend it in a matter of a fact way. In my capacity as a member of psychobabble, I act in a way I would NEVER act with actual patients. You are not my patient. With patients I will be very warm and caring, but at the same time keep a healthy distance from them and be matter of fact about medications. But on this board I am just being my crazy self.
Then again, it seems like such an approach is really not so far outside the norm in psychiatry.
Yes it is. Not many doctors would say "INCREASE TO 90MG!!!!"
Hmmm. Maybe you would be well-suited for the profession, after all.You seem bitter about psychiatry, or psychiatrists? Am i right?
>
> Tomatheus
Posted by willyee on December 4, 2005, at 13:47:26
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 7:32:30
Ace dont get me wrong but if ur a p doc it seems the ony med u believe really works is nardil,are you gonna be willing to precribe other meds.
Posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 20:50:46
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in, posted by willyee on December 4, 2005, at 13:47:26
> Ace dont get me wrong but if ur a p doc it seems the ony med u believe really works is nardil,are you gonna be willing to precribe other meds.
Oh yeah. But 90% are going to be the older meds. eg, TCA's, MAOIs, Lithium, etc etc Time has shown them to have greater efficacy than the newer meds.
One exception is the new antipsychotics.....I would always use them as first line as opposed to 1st generation agents.
But, I mean I would prescribe Nardil to everyone...especial Bi-polar patients. Also personality disorders, I'd be very careful.
Posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 20:53:35
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in, posted by willyee on December 4, 2005, at 13:47:26
> Ace dont get me wrong but if ur a p doc it seems the ony med u believe really works is nardil,are you gonna be willing to precribe other meds.
Oh also, I am very much a benzo fan -- in the RIGHT patient.
Posted by Tomatheus on December 4, 2005, at 21:05:08
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by ed_uk on December 3, 2005, at 14:25:39
Ed,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate your feedback.
Tomatheus
P.S., I sent you a Babble-mail.
Posted by Tomatheus on December 4, 2005, at 21:23:23
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 7:32:30
Hi Ace,
Thanks for getting back to me. See my responses below.
>> others require 75mg/day, and yes, some (like yourself) find that the best dose is 90mg/day. But, with all due respect Mr. Nardil champ, the best dose for you is not necessarily the best dose for everyone.
>
> Just about everyone.
I'm still not convinced that you're right. Consider some of the other Nardil users on this board. Jedi seems to be responding well at 75mg, and I think I recall Gardenergirl saying that she was responding well at 60mg. And if I remember Tecknohed's posts correctly, I think he was also at 60mg, but I think he said that it was losing some of its effectiveness. So, I hate to bring the some-versus-most debate into this thread, but I'm not entirely convinced that "just about everyone" needs to be at 90mg/day.
> Man, it's cool for you to do want you and your MD want, but I personally would go straight to 90mg for maximum MAOI inhibition.
I guess I understand where you're coming from. I think my initial response was a little harsh. I do appreciate your suggestion and welcome you to give me more in the future.> I'm a register in 2 months. So I am not 'planning', I am 'being' a psychiatrist. Arent I so good!!! ha ha!!
That's good news, and I do mean it. Good luck.
> I would not say that in a excited or agressive tone, I would strongly reccommend it in a matter of a fact way. In my capacity as a member of psychobabble, I act in a way I would NEVER act with actual patients. You are not my patient. With patients I will be very warm and caring, but at the same time keep a healthy distance from them and be matter of fact about medications. But on this board I am just being my crazy self.Thanks for your explanation. Feel free to be your "crazy self" here as much as you want.
> Not many doctors would say "INCREASE TO 90MG!!!!"In all seriousness, you're probably right. But unfortunately, far too few pdocs even prescribe Nardil in the first place.
> You seem bitter about psychiatry, or psychiatrists? Am i right?
Partially. I do feel some bitterness at times, but then again, I definitely wouldn't say that I'm anti-psychiatry, either.
Keep rockin' Nardil champ.
Tomatheus
Posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 21:58:00
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » ace, posted by Tomatheus on December 4, 2005, at 21:23:23
> Hi Ace,
>
> Thanks for getting back to me. See my responses below.
>
> >> others require 75mg/day, and yes, some (like yourself) find that the best dose is 90mg/day. But, with all due respect Mr. Nardil champ, the best dose for you is not necessarily the best dose for everyone.
> >
> > Just about everyone.
>
> I'm still not convinced that you're right. Consider some of the other Nardil users on this board. Jedi seems to be responding well at 75mg, and I think I recall Gardenergirl saying that she was responding well at 60mg. And if I remember Tecknohed's posts correctly, I think he was also at 60mg, but I think he said that it was losing some of its effectiveness. So, I hate to bring the some-versus-most debate into this thread, but I'm not entirely convinced that "just about everyone" needs to be at 90mg/day.
I actually got that info from an EXTREMELY academic MAOI paper and from personal experience and what I have seen. But sure, some people might need only 60mg. They sometimes recommend dose at 1mg/1kg body weight.>
> > Man, it's cool for you to do want you and your MD want, but I personally would go straight to 90mg for maximum MAOI inhibition.
>
> I guess I understand where you're coming from. I think my initial response was a little harsh.Thats OK!
I do appreciate your suggestion and welcome you to give me more in the future.
Sure!
>
> > I'm a register in 2 months. So I am not 'planning', I am 'being' a psychiatrist. Arent I so good!!! ha ha!!
>
> That's good news, and I do mean it. Good luck.Yeah, i have to prepare myself emotionally very much so. Psychiatry can be extremely taxing on ones emotion and everyone knows psychiatrists have a high suicide rate due to stress.
> > I would not say that in a excited or agressive tone, I would strongly reccommend it in a matter of a fact way. In my capacity as a member of psychobabble, I act in a way I would NEVER act with actual patients. You are not my patient. With patients I will be very warm and caring, but at the same time keep a healthy distance from them and be matter of fact about medications. But on this board I am just being my crazy self.
>
> Thanks for your explanation. Feel free to be your "crazy self" here as much as you want.
Cool dude!! No, I wont call my patients dude!!!!
>
> > Not many doctors would say "INCREASE TO 90MG!!!!"
>
> In all seriousness, you're probably right. But unfortunately, far too few pdocs even prescribe Nardil in the first place.It's a disgrace....throughout their training they are just bamboozled with the SSRI lie. So, hence thats what they believe. But I can see past the smoke and mirrors.
>
> > You seem bitter about psychiatry, or psychiatrists? Am i right?
>
> Partially. I do feel some bitterness at times, but then again, I definitely wouldn't say that I'm anti-psychiatry, either.They can be very rude and unethical. No doubt. They are just human. But if they are this way they shouldn't practice. I am determined to be very caring, warm and considerate to ALL patients -- even forensic ones who call me all nasty names!
>
> Keep rockin' Nardil champ.
>
> Tomatheus
Thanks man! I will!!!!!!!!!!Peace,
Ace, 2005.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2005, at 23:35:49
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » ace, posted by Tomatheus on December 4, 2005, at 21:23:23
>
...I think I recall Gardenergirl saying that she was responding well at 60mg.Just a bit to add...I could not tolerate 75 mg of Nardil. I got severe insomnia and akathisia. 67.5 seems to be the max for me, that I can tolerate. I think Lamictal kind of fills in the gap in my case as far as making it effective at 60 mg and sometimes even 45mg.
Hope you get a positive response soon.
gg
Posted by Tomatheus on December 5, 2005, at 0:05:41
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2005, at 23:35:49
Posted by ace on December 5, 2005, at 6:53:40
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » Tomatheus, posted by gardenergirl on December 4, 2005, at 23:35:49
> >
> ...I think I recall Gardenergirl saying that she was responding well at 60mg.
>
> Just a bit to add...I could not tolerate 75 mg of Nardil. I got severe insomnia and akathisia.I cannot imagine how you possibly could have got akathisia from Nardil. There is NOTHING in the literature that states Nardil to cause akathisia. I have never heard from any Nardil user the word akathisia. Please describe your symptoms really clearly. May it have been intense anxiety?
67.5 seems to be the max for me, that I can tolerate. I think Lamictal kind of fills in the gap in my case as far as making it effective at 60 mg and sometimes even 45mg.
>
> Hope you get a positive response soon.
>
> gg
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2005, at 14:19:11
In reply to Re: Nardil update: Still hasn't kicked in » gardenergirl, posted by ace on December 5, 2005, at 6:53:40
>> I cannot imagine how you possibly could have got akathisia from Nardil. There is NOTHING in the literature that states Nardil to cause akathisia. I have never heard from any Nardil user the word akathisia. Please describe your symptoms really clearly. May it have been intense anxiety?
I haven't found anything that lists akathisia by name in the Nardil literature either, alhtough I haven't had any need to search. However, I do have the following two sources which list jitteriness and restlessness as less common adverse reactions:
http://www.pfizer.com/pfizer/download/uspi_nardil.pdf"Less common mild to moderate side effects (some of which have been reported in a
single patient or by a single physician) include:
Nervous System—Jitteriness, ... ."http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/psychiatry/CPS/19.html
From TABLE 2: ADVERSE EFFECTS INCIDENCE OF PHENELZINE 60 MG/D VERSUS AMITRIPTYLINE 150 MG/D FOR SIX WEEKS
Restlessness 13% for phenelzineAt 75 mg of Nardil, besides insomnia, I experienced intense restlessness, although I suppose you could attibute the insomnia to being so restless. I felt as if I were going to "jump out of my skin", and I could not sit still. I had no racing thoughts and no somatic or emotional symptoms of anxiety (i.e. NO racing heart, increased respiration, sweating, feeling faint, panic, feeling of fear, dread, etc.). I just felt like I had to MOVE. It was very uncomfortable.
My pdoc had me try Gabitril to try to counter these effects, which she did not question. She has been prescribing MAOI's for 30 years. It did nothing for me but cause me some heartburn, unfortunately.
I have been known to have atypical reactions to some meds. Codeine and benadryl also make me jittery and both interfere with sleep versus make me feel drowsy. I had an almost hypomanic reaction to, believe it or not, Biaxin XL. One might think that SSRI's might be too activating for me, but they do nothing for me. So although I'm certain I'm not the only one who has reacted to Nardil the way I do, I assume it's not a common reaction.
gg
Posted by Jedi on December 5, 2005, at 15:19:12
In reply to akathisia » ace, posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2005, at 14:19:11
GG,
Akathisia is listed as a rare side effect of Lamictal. It sure is an awful feeling. I tried Abilify for a short time when it was first available in the US. It is the only med that has ever given me that feeling. Then, I've never used any of the typical antipsychotics.What kind of help do you sence Lamictal has given you as an augmentation to Nardil. I would like to add Topomax to combat the weight gain, but I'm stupid enough.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2005, at 15:35:33
In reply to Re: akathisia » gardenergirl, posted by Jedi on December 5, 2005, at 15:19:12
> GG,
> Akathisia is listed as a rare side effect of Lamictal. It sure is an awful feeling.I agree, and I think I read that it can lead to suicide if it gets severe enough.
I've never had akathisia while on Lamictal, alhtough I only take 75 mg. Initially I did feel a bit more activated, and I had some sleep problems at 75 mg Lamictal and 67.5 mg Nardil at first. I dropped back down to 50mg of Lamictal and that went away. I also dropped Nardil as I started to feel better (I can't stand the peripheral edema that comes with higher doses.) The sleep problems that happened at first with Lamictal seem to have gone away. I'm doing well now at 60 Nardil and 75 Lamictal. I've always had frequent waking in the night, and an occasional 5-10 mg of Ambien helps with that.
>
> What kind of help do you sence Lamictal has given you as an augmentation to Nardil.It seems to sort of fill in the gap that Nardil leaves with depression. I seem to get a more complete effect with the two than with Nardil alone. Although, I've also made some good progress in therapy lately, so it's hard to sort out which is responsible for what.
>I would like to add Topomax to combat the weight gain, but I'm stupid enough.
I tried Topomax before the Lamictal. It seemed to make me more depressed, so I stopped it after about eight weeks. I was also hoping it would help with weight gain. Recently I've been taking chromium picolinate to try to help with carb cravings. Now's not a good time of the month to assess that, though, as I seem to have the "hollow leg" syndrome. Everything I eat seems to go into some black hole, versus fills me up. I'm constantly hungry just before my period.
Hope that's not tmi.
gg
Posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2005, at 15:58:47
In reply to Re: akathisia » Jedi, posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2005, at 15:35:33
Hi GG
It's not particularly surprising to me that Nardil might cause akathisia, since akathisia has been associated with other strongly serotonergic drugs eg. the SSRIs.
Ed x
Posted by Jedi on December 5, 2005, at 22:16:21
In reply to Re: akathisia » Jedi, posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2005, at 15:35:33
...
> > What kind of help do you sence Lamictal has given you as an augmentation to Nardil.
>
> It seems to sort of fill in the gap that Nardil leaves with depression. I seem to get a more complete effect with the two than with Nardil alone. Although, I've also made some good progress in therapy lately, so it's hard to sort out which is responsible for what.
>
> >I would like to add Topomax to combat the weight gain, but I'm stupid enough.
>
> I tried Topomax before the Lamictal. It seemed to make me more depressed, so I stopped it after about eight weeks. I was also hoping it would help with weight gain. Recently I've been taking chromium picolinate to try to help with carb cravings. Now's not a good time of the month to assess that, though, as I seem to have the "hollow leg" syndrome. Everything I eat seems to go into some black hole, versus fills me up. I'm constantly hungry just before my period.
>
> Hope that's not tmi.
>
> ggGG,
Thank you. Great information. My residual dysthymia seems to have gotten a bit worse lately and I'm searching for a better augmentation than the 1mg clonazepam I'm taking. I did read a recent abstract about chromium picolinate and the carb cravings. The atypical depression seems like a double edge sword. I gain weight from the depression, then I gain weight from the medication. The only thing I've been able to beat the Nardil carb cravings with is exercise. I'm talking two hours a day. It is hard to stay that motivated long term so thus my weight goes up and down. Does the chromium picolinate seem to help at all? A magic pill sure would be nice, especially if the weight gain is medication related. Sometimes I feel like a total binge eater, the cravings just don't go away. Thanks again.
Jedi
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2005, at 7:20:30
In reply to Re: akathisia » gardenergirl, posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2005, at 15:58:47
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2005, at 7:22:36
In reply to Re: Nardil augmentation » gardenergirl, posted by Jedi on December 5, 2005, at 22:16:21
> I did read a recent abstract about chromium picolinate and the carb cravings. The atypical depression seems like a double edge sword. I gain weight from the depression, then I gain weight from the medication.
I've decided the chromium picolinate does squat for me, so I'm dropping it. I think you're right, exercise is the way to go.
My pdoc recently suggested I consider Provigil. I'm thinking about it, but I'm going to try upping my caffeine a tiny bit first. I wonder if Provigil would help with the weight gain?
gg
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