Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 579307

Shown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?)

Posted by Racer on November 16, 2005, at 11:01:10

My first question is about Seroquel, and it's weird, so just bear with me:

Is Seroquel likely to affect female hormonal cycles? When I was in the hospital recently, I was given Seroquel as part of the sedation cocktail. The cycle I was in at that time turned out to be 15 days long! That's short even for me. So, while it could certainly be the stress, I'm wondering if the Seroquel could have had anything to do with that?

And now for the other question:

I've taken Clomid this cycle to try to induce my ovaries to work a bit more. While my mood has slipped again now, halfway through my cycle, during the Clomid cycle and for a week or so afterwards, I felt GREAT. Not euphoric, not hypomanic, not superhuman, I couldn't fly, nor leap tall buildings in a single bound -- just good, for the first time in years. I felt like myself, the way anti-depressants are supposed to do for us.

I'm assuming that it did something towards normalizing my hormones, and I'm hoping that this would give some sort of clue towards 'fixing' my depression. Can anyone tell me what this clue might mean? If it points towards anything that might help me longer term? (I don't think this cycle worked, so I'll be taking it again next month, I guess. I'm not unhappy about that, either.)

Although I was warned about hot flashes, mood swings, and so on, I've had none of those things. Just a week or two of total remission, and feeling better than I have in years.

Thanks!

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?)

Posted by Laurie Beth on November 16, 2005, at 19:50:19

In reply to Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?), posted by Racer on November 16, 2005, at 11:01:10

Re Clomid:

(First, everything below assumes that you are taking Clomid to attempt to ovulate more eggs - i.e., that you are already "normo-ovulatory". If that's not the case, then the analysis would be a little different.)

Clomid fools the receptors in the pituitary into "thinking" estrogen levels are low, thus causing the pituitary to pump out more follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), which in turn makes (more) ovarian follicles grow (faster), thus making more estrogen that the pituitary still may not detect but that will circulate in the blood. The reason women are usually warned about the side negative emotional side effects of Clomid is that while on Clomid, the "brain" is said to think estrogen levels are low, and for many women, that can cause depression, anxiety irritability, hot flashes, etc.

So, let's see: you're saying that both WHILE you were on Clomid and AFTER you went off Clomid, you felt good, right? That makes speculation more complicated.

While you were on Clomid, presumably your "brain" thought it had little estrogen. That would seem initially to suggest that low estrogen state is what's making you feel good. But, in reality, your estrogen was probably climbing much faster than normal, even though your pituitary didn't know it. Clomid is pretty non-selective in blocking estrogen receptors (that's why women often have thinner uterine linings and less fertile cervical mucus while on Clomid). But I doubt there's been much research on exactly which types of estrogen receptors in the brain are affected by Clomid - I guess it's not impossible that the pituitary could be fooled (and thus Clomid would do its job, causing an increase in FSH) but that the receptors that are responsible for your feelings of well-being were NOT fooled, but rather were enjoying your actual high estrogen state.

Once you went off Clomid, your body would continue to have a lot of estrogen in it (because of the extra follicles that would hopefully be growing under the earlier influence of Clomid-induced increase in FSH), but now your brain would have a chance to recognize that. If you ovulated more than one egg, then, during the second half of your cycle, the time when you said you were still feeling good, your estrogen and progesterone levels would probably have both been higher than usual. However, it's also not impossible that the effects of the Clomid could have lingered somewhat, so that even for several days after you went off Clomid, your "brain" still didn't know that your estrogen levels were unusually high.

So, it's still not easy to determine if your brain (or specifically some receptors in your brain) liked the fact that they weren't getting much estrogen (even though the estrogen was actually there) or if the opposite: some receptors in your brain were reacting favorably to the high actual estrogen levels caused by the Clomid's effect on FSH.

And unfortunately, this is all complicated by the fact that mood and cognitive states aren't determined just be how high the ovarian hormone (progesterone and estrogen) levels are; they're also determined (in a way that isn't yet very well understood) by the sequence in which they come. So even if you could figure out that you felt good when estrogen and progesterone levels were high, it may not be as simple as just trying to get your estrogen levels to stay high.

So, not much help ... except that if you're sure you felt distinctly good on Clomid and for a little while afterward, I do think that's helpful in pointing to ovarian hormones as especially relevant in your moods.

I'm assuming, by the way, that you didn't actually have your estrogen measured while you were on Clomid. If you have insurance for fertility, you might consider asking your doctor if you could have that done next time (the docs I went to don't believe in using Clomid without blood testing and follicle ultrasounds, because of the risk of high order multiple pregnancies) - it might give you a little bit better idea of what's going on.

Also, in general how do your moods vary with your menstrual cycle?

-Laurie

(By the way, my connection to all this stuff is that I tried to get pregnant with baby #2 when I was 39, and ended up doing 4 cycles of injectables and 3 IVFs and about 18 months of research ... all to finally have baby #2, and post-partum depression #2. I have been charting my moods for the last 4 months, and the only obvious factor that correlates with them is the time of the month. So I am certain that ovarian hormones are at least partial causes of my depression, irritability, etc. Unfortunately, my pdoc doesn't really believe in treatments along those lines, but I am slowly getting my act together to visit an endocrinologist that I know treats mood disorders with estrogen patch, birth control pills, etc.)

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?)

Posted by Phillipa on November 16, 2005, at 23:33:29

In reply to Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?), posted by Laurie Beth on November 16, 2005, at 19:50:19

Racer SLS is in Aruba for two weeks i believe. Fondly, phillipa

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Laurie Beth

Posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 17, 2005, at 16:14:23

In reply to Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?), posted by Laurie Beth on November 16, 2005, at 19:50:19

Hi,

This is a very interesting thread -- I have been wondering about the link between a woman's hormones and mood disorders, but I have found information between the two rather elusive.

My interest lies in the fact that I only have one ovary. One was removed when I was born, as it contained a large cyst. I get normal (and light!) periods, with cycles 30-35 days.

Do you know if only having one ovary could affect my moods? Do you think my (one) ovary produces enough estrogen?

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Meri-Tuuli

Posted by Laurie Beth on November 17, 2005, at 18:44:06

In reply to Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Laurie Beth, posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 17, 2005, at 16:14:23

I don't really know enough to answer your question. My guess would be that having only one healthy ovary would not dramatically decrease estrogen levels. In a woman with 2 ovaries, each month, many follicles start to grow on both ovaries. Eventually, one follicle gets ahead enough to suppress FSH (estrogen from the developing follicles suppresses FSH) enough to cause the other follicles to stop growing. The one that gets ahead eventually ovulates. Sometimes that follicle is on the left, sometimes on the right. In a woman with one ovary, the process is the same, except the follicle that gets ahead each time is, of course, always on same ovary.

It's interesting that your cycles are a little longer than typical. I wonder if that's typical with one ovary, and if it does suggest something about slightly lower levels of estrogen early in the cycle?

In any event, I've never heard of any correlation between having only one ovary and mood disorders. Which doesn't mean there isn't one.

-Laurie

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Racer

Posted by 4WD on November 17, 2005, at 21:51:24

In reply to Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?), posted by Racer on November 16, 2005, at 11:01:10

Racer,

I can't suggest anything regarding the Clomid effect, however, I do know for sure that levels of estrogen and particularly progesterone have a distinct effect on my mood. I have taken several different formulations of HRT and have found that some forms of progesterone intensely increase my depression and anxiety.

I can guess that when your estrogen levels are high, your progesterone levels are low, both relatively and absolutely. If the Clomid increases your estrogen levels, then your ratio of estrogen to progesterone would increase. I know I feel better on estrogen and worse on progesterone. So it could be the ratio of estrogen to progesterone in your body that is making the difference.

I've done some searching on the web and here at Babble and have found many reports of people who got bad depression and anxiety from progesterone.

This may at least be some clue.

Marsha

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Racer

Posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2005, at 23:07:43

In reply to Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?), posted by Racer on November 16, 2005, at 11:01:10

Darling, Lar's brain is not currently accessing its database. If the software bug can be corrected, we'll see what we can do about getting some meaning out of your experiences. Until then, here's big old Lar-style patented bear hug....{{{{{{{{{{{{Racer}}}}}}}}}}}}

Lar

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Larry Hoover

Posted by Phillipa on November 17, 2005, at 23:18:47

In reply to Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Racer, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2005, at 23:07:43

Lar, Sorry you're feeling so badly. Love your friend, Phillipa

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SL Laurie Beth

Posted by Racer on November 18, 2005, at 2:16:03

In reply to Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?), posted by Laurie Beth on November 16, 2005, at 19:50:19

> Re Clomid:
>
> (First, everything below assumes that you are taking Clomid to attempt to ovulate more eggs - i.e., that you are already "normo-ovulatory". If that's not the case, then the analysis would be a little different.)
>
>
Actually, the Clomid is because I don't seem to be ovulating. We're hoping that my girl parts can be encouraged to do the hard work, so we're trying Clomid. And our insurance -- blast them -- doesn't seem to cover anything related to infertility treatments. It's good about a lot of things, but not that.

Thank you for your explanation. I appreciate the time you took. And congrats on your #2.

For what it's worth, I don't do much menstrual moodiness. I get a few physical symptoms, but few of those. My cycle, such as it is, has been one day periods every 21 days. That's probably related to anorexia. How's that for a double whammy? The biggest incentive for me to recover is that I want to have a child. A part of me keeps saying that I would eat for a baby, no matter how I felt, but now it seems that that doesn't matter -- I've given up being thin for being fat and barren.

Yes, I know -- that's the psychopathology. What can I say? But I'm so deep in denial that I'm still crossing my fingers, taking my temperature, and dragging hubby into bed every couple of weeks. It will happen. I'll have the breakdown later if it doesn't...

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Laurie Beth

Posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 18, 2005, at 4:42:19

In reply to Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Meri-Tuuli, posted by Laurie Beth on November 17, 2005, at 18:44:06

Hey there Laurie, thanks for the info. Its nice to know my one ovary is functioning properly - I never really believed the drs when they said that one is enough, but your explanation makes perfect sense!!

Anyway I am just curious as to the link in hormones and mood disorders (with or without one ovary!). For instance, I was put on reboxetine, a potent selective noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor, and my periods completely stopped, I got bad acne and I couldn't put on weight! I've read other posts here about ADs messing with your periods. I mean, if an AD can make periods stop completely, then that could in itself cause mood disorders, because your cycle and hormones are messed up. Anyway I used to get terrible PMS and would be so depressed the day or two become my period....I'm taking St John's wort at the moment and it seems to have eliminated that.

 

Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Larry Hoover

Posted by ed_uk on November 18, 2005, at 14:06:21

In reply to Re: Questions re Seroquel and re estrogen (Lar? SLS?) Racer, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2005, at 23:07:43

>Until then, here's big old Lar-style patented bear hug....{{{{{{{{{{{{Racer}}}}}}}}}}}}

Lar, that was cute :-)

Ed


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