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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jms600 on October 27, 2005, at 16:15:03
Hi everyone,
A few months ago my doctor put me on Gabapentin/Neurontin for Nystagmus (a congenital eye condition). However since I've been taking it I've noticed my depression & panic attacks returning. I'm currently taking 1800mg per day, but my doctor is raising it to 2400mg per day in divided doses.
Has anyone else took Gabapentin/Neutonin and become more depressed and/or anxious.??
I've been, and am still, taking 40mg Prozac for the last few years, but it obviously isn't working.
Things are slowly getting worse for me. I'm not sure whether it's the Gabapentin/Neutonin causing my panic and depression or its just naturally returning?
Thanks for your help!
Posted by SLS on October 27, 2005, at 17:18:12
In reply to Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by jms600 on October 27, 2005, at 16:15:03
Hi.
I found Neurontin to be de-stabilizing and ultimately depressogenic. So, I guess the answer to your question is that someone other than you has experienced counterproductive alterations in mood as a result of taking Neurontin.
Did you find that Neurontin was actually helpful during the first week?
- Scott
-------------------------------------------
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few months ago my doctor put me on Gabapentin/Neurontin for Nystagmus (a congenital eye condition). However since I've been taking it I've noticed my depression & panic attacks returning. I'm currently taking 1800mg per day, but my doctor is raising it to 2400mg per day in divided doses.
>
> Has anyone else took Gabapentin/Neutonin and become more depressed and/or anxious.??
>
> I've been, and am still, taking 40mg Prozac for the last few years, but it obviously isn't working.
>
> Things are slowly getting worse for me. I'm not sure whether it's the Gabapentin/Neutonin causing my panic and depression or its just naturally returning?
>
> Thanks for your help!
Posted by RetiredYoung on October 27, 2005, at 17:48:26
In reply to Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by jms600 on October 27, 2005, at 16:15:03
Yep, Neurontin made my depression worse.
Posted by jms600 on October 27, 2005, at 18:32:37
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by SLS on October 27, 2005, at 17:18:12
Didn't see any positive effect at all!
> Hi.
>
> I found Neurontin to be de-stabilizing and ultimately depressogenic. So, I guess the answer to your question is that someone other than you has experienced counterproductive alterations in mood as a result of taking Neurontin.
>
> Did you find that Neurontin was actually helpful during the first week?
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > A few months ago my doctor put me on Gabapentin/Neurontin for Nystagmus (a congenital eye condition). However since I've been taking it I've noticed my depression & panic attacks returning. I'm currently taking 1800mg per day, but my doctor is raising it to 2400mg per day in divided doses.
> >
> > Has anyone else took Gabapentin/Neutonin and become more depressed and/or anxious.??
> >
> > I've been, and am still, taking 40mg Prozac for the last few years, but it obviously isn't working.
> >
> > Things are slowly getting worse for me. I'm not sure whether it's the Gabapentin/Neutonin causing my panic and depression or its just naturally returning?
> >
> > Thanks for your help!
>
>
Posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 17:52:44
In reply to Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by jms600 on October 27, 2005, at 16:15:03
get off it. the drug is poison. trust me on this i know a lot about it. it screws with a lot of systems especially substance P. Please get off the drug ASAP and stay away from lyrica too.
Unless you plan to be on them forever.
Posted by SLS on October 28, 2005, at 18:54:29
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 17:52:44
Hi Lunesta.
> get off it. the drug is poison. trust me on this i know a lot about it. it screws with a lot of systems especially substance P. Please get off the drug ASAP and stay away from lyrica too.
>
> Unless you plan to be on them forever.
WOW!!!That's a hell of an indictment. I might be inclined to agree with you.
I didn't know about the substance P stuff. How does Neurontin affect it?
I was going to try Lyrica despite my negative reaction to Neurontin. Now I'm having second thoughts. I guess I have some homework to do. Crap. What is it about Lyrica that you don't like?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 21:34:25
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by SLS on October 28, 2005, at 18:54:29
Lyrica is just a glorified neurontin and much more dangerous, which is why its a controlled substance, just like neurontin should be.
Neurontin effects substance P, which is involved in emesis (vomiting), anxiety, sleep, mood, pain and many more things. Its thought mode of action is binding to the alpha2delta aux high voltage calcium channels. It causes a decrease in spinal level glutamate, indirectly raises gaba, hits the gaba-b autoreceptors or something in the gaba-b unit, which they dont know, but similar to where GHB hits, effects opioiergic system indirectly modulating endomorphin-1 and 2 probably through substance P/NK1, alters+interacts w/ vasoactive intestinal peptide, decreases all neurotransmitters (main ones) serotonin, norepinphrine, and dopamine, however it effects dopamine in some special way which is unknown as of yet but may be mediated by substance P. Withdrawl can cause edema of the brain, pyscosis, hyperemesis, opiate/alcohol/benzo withdrawl combined type effects and permanant panic attacks due to screwing with substance P in the amygdaloid nucleus as well as eating behavior and sexual function and so many other things , use it at your own risk. I have personal experience with neurontin long term high dose, this is why i know a lot. The withdrawl ruined much of my life I am messed up quite a bit. Many reports on the net of this, and you of course know of the class action lawsuit against pfizer for lying about neurontin.
Do not use this off label unless you plan to be on it forever. It is OKAY for short amounts of time, similar to a benzo.
good luck.
Posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 21:38:44
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » SLS, posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 21:34:25
ALso forgot to mention it lowers white blood cells quite a bit making your immune system much lower and the WBC's leak out of your kidney everytime you pee, damaging your kidney in the process. And also, when withdrawling the calcium overload causes kidney stone formation and it hurts like hell to pass them.
Posted by SLS on October 29, 2005, at 1:43:50
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 21:38:44
Thanks for the heads-up, Lunesta.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by SandyWeb on October 29, 2005, at 17:33:12
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by SLS on October 29, 2005, at 1:43:50
Ummm....not to budd in here....but I've been on Neurontin 3200 mg daily for probably close 2 years now. (Wow! I didn't realize that until I just typed it out. And about one and a half years since I attempted. Sorry. I just blew my own mind right now! Lol!!)
Anyways...back to Neurontin. I've actually gone off it cold-turkey twice. Once when I went into the hospital (I was off it for maybe 2-3 months, until I figured out what meds had actually been beneficial for me), and once when I was SICK SICK SICK (I was off for almost 2 weeks with the flu). I didn't have any withdrawal either time....although I wouldn't have been able to tell the time I cold-turkeyed when I was SICK! Lol!
Because of this, I have always thought of Neurontin as a pretty benign med. It seems you can go up and down in dose...and even quit it...without any type of difficulties.
But I guess that is just my experience.
I'm sorry you had such a nasty time with it. I think we all have that one special drug that we think came straight from Satan! Lol. I would have to say that my worst one was Paxil!!!
Take care.
Sandy
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2005, at 9:43:45
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 17:52:44
> the drug is poison.
Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 1:06:37
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by SandyWeb on October 29, 2005, at 17:33:12
Yes,
I have to agree that Neurontin has only helped me.
I'm on Celexa 40mg/day, WellbutrinXL 300mg/day, and Neurontin 600mg at night.
The Neurontin prevents Bruxism for me. I don't grind my teeth or bite my tongue at night anymore! Also, it seemed to add a bit of mood brightening in the background. It was very subtle.
All of us have one med or two or more that we cannot stand to take. For me I really don't ever want to go back on Effexor XR if I can help it even though it really worked for the depression. It made me numb from the waiste down and that was an untolerable side-effect for me.
So, there are good reports about the effects of Neurontin and there are scary reports too. The same can be said for just about any psychoactive medication on the market today. It all depends on what works for you.
If it makes you more depressed then tell the doc and get off of it and on something else if needed.
Simcha
Posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 5:23:25
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by SandyWeb on October 29, 2005, at 17:33:12
you were off it both times you were sick, just like me, this is because neurontin lowers white blood cells, which fight infections. So when we get a big one, we end up in the hospital or somewhere major, where we might have to stop our immune supressing neurontin. this causes a huge rebound in white blood cells fighting all the infections that neurontin may have supressed. calcium overload, vomiting, constant nesea, panic, anxiety, hyperventilate, urination, hot cold chills, sweaty palms yet cold hands. sound anything like the illnesses you had concidentally when you had to stop neurontin then too they kept going. if you had taken higher doses of neurontin, the illness would most likely would have been supressed, but because the body builds tolerance, eventually, well..lets just say
neurontin withdrawl resembles severe illnesses like flu, pnemunoia, anxiety, psycosis etc.
I would bet this was the case.
Posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 5:34:29
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 1:06:37
"The Neurontin prevents Bruxism for me. I don't grind my teeth or bite my tongue at night anymore"
So interesting. I never had bruxism before i was given neurontin. Now I have it permenantly.... My teeth are ruined i have to wear a terrible mouth guard.
It is a risk benefit ratio. if you are older, and plan to stay on it forever like i said, it may be ok, but it can cause osteopenia and kidney stones, gout all these things related to calcium metabolism.
bruxism is related to a gaba-opioidergic-substance p interaction, all involved in the stress response system, hence they say bruxers have stress (which can be biological or mental of course). neurontin hits gaba, opioidergic and substance P, so it is quite a unique drug.
However, it depends on dosage (high is worse), low can be okay.
Do you ever plan to get off? When you do, let me know how it goes, babblemail me.
I would suggest your doctor check for white blood cells in your kidney, a common side effect on neurontin. Thats your proof of immunosupression, kidney damage etc.
Blah! All drugs are risk benefit. Its your choice. Neurontin was a miracle to me to btw. Then i realized, i couldnt get off it or would puke water , anything.
But you know its only approved for shingles pain and seizure add on, so you can always join the class action lawsuit against Pfizer for promoting it to docs off label, or maybe sue separate which many people do.
I wish you the best of luck.
Posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 9:54:54
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 1:06:37
Neurontin is the only drug that has helped me.
It deals with irritability, racing thoughts ,premenstral stuff, anxiety and pain related depression symptoms.
Gets me out of bed and the only med keeping me almost alive.It doesn't cure depression -I have to live with it-but it doesn't increase depression either.
Posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 10:01:58
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 9:54:54
Oh and yes I had some time off it..titrated down till I stopped..the only problem was aches and pains that I had pre neurontin and itchy irritability and racing thoughts- also pre neurontin.
Posted by SLS on October 31, 2005, at 10:11:28
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 9:54:54
Hi.
> It doesn't cure depression -I have to live with it-but it doesn't increase depression either.
What makes you conclude that you have to live with depression?
- Scott
Posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 11:41:06
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » Simcha, posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 5:34:29
Ya know, I just don't see the body of unbiased medical evidence to support all of the claims of the danger of this drug to most people. What I see are studies done by law firms who are litigating the case against Pfizer. I would hardly call these non-biased medical studies.
In my own personal experience I have had no adverse side effects while on Neurontin. I have not noticed any increase in infections or any of the other things you seem to have experienced. And I do believe you personally had problems with taking Neurontin. Obviously, it's contraindicated for you.
At the same time I know many others who take Neurontin and have been taking Neurontin for years. They are all fine and report no major side effects. I asked my psychiatrist about doing blood work due to the amount of medication I'm on. I'm also an asthmatic who has to take maintenance meds for that too.
He evaluated all of my medications (recently, within the past two months) and told me that there was no concern about any of the drugs I'm on. They don't interact. They don't cause toxicity. They don't damage any organs in their elimination according to him. Also my general practitioner has agreed with his opinion.
So, I have actually looked for studies to back up anything that might scare me off of Neurontin or any of the other drugs I need to take. I have yet to come across anything that I would consider unbiased medical evidence of great danger to the majority of people who might take Neurontin.
As with any drug, your personal mileage may vary. Not all drugs work for all people. One drug that is a miracle for one person is death to another. (Think allergies, and body chemistry.)
My current daily meds:
40mg Celexa
300mg Wellbutrin XL
600mg Neurontin at night
50/500 Advair Diskus (one puff in the am and one in the pm)
10mg Singulair at night
10mg Claritin
240mg (24 hours worth) of Sudafed
The last two can be taken now as generic Loratadine-D 24 hour (two less pills!)I'm only 35 and I remember watching my Grandmother take all of her pills. I take as many or more than she did at 65. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have to take more.
But alas, I need to breathe and I need to be euthymic.
If I were to believe all of the hysteria about every drug I take I would be in the ER unable to breathe and on suicide watch frequently because I would take myself off of everything. Life is not worth living that way for me. So, I take my medications.
Simcha
Posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 11:43:41
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » slinky, posted by SLS on October 31, 2005, at 10:11:28
Hi SLSStruggling with my mood since a child, I'm learning to give into it and accept it .
Being bipolar the meds I've tried never seem to reach a middle ground.
I'm feeling a bit brighter today, have some energy...that's why I'm posting .
Posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 12:07:45
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 11:41:06
600mg Neurontin at night is a very low dose. I said low doses can be okay. I was takin 2400mg daily.
Posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 19:33:14
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » Simcha, posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 12:07:45
Yes, and I know people on 4+ grams of the stuff per day who did not experience anything like what you did.
We are all different when it comes to side effects and efficacy, unfortunately.
My psychiatrist informed me well about high doses of Gabapentin a few months ago and told me that the latest unbiased medical studies show that most people can take grams of it and be just fine.
Gabapentin did not agree with you at all. I'm sorry you suffered this.
For every drug there is a minority who experience the terrible side effects of a drug. This is true for every drug anyone has ever made, including aspirin.
So, when faced with medical "evidence" presented by lawyers who are litigating a case against a drug company, I'm very wary of the results due to the automatic bias from the very start of the study. When faced with unbiased medical studies done for research purposes, not funded by a drug company, I'm much more comfortable. Also I have much more confidence in my doctors who know more than I do, even though I'm a well educated consumer, than I do what a law firm would tell me about a medicine.
If attorneys were meant to practice medicine then they would hold PhD.s in medicine and have the letters M.D. or O.D. or something like it after their names. Instead they have Doctorates in Law and they have the letters, J.D. after their names. I would not seek legal advice from a doctor any more than I would seek medical advice from a lawyer.
So, again, I believe you about your issues with Gabapentin. I believe everyone when they say they have any side effect to whatever med they take. In every study there is always a minority of people who have some VERY adverse reactions to all drugs that have been made.
That is what makes medicine such a complicated science. There is more about the human body that we don't know than what we actually know. And multiply that lack of knowledge by 100 when you speak about the brain.
Best Wishes,
Simcha
Posted by lunesta on November 1, 2005, at 1:06:56
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 19:33:14
Why are you defending neurontin so hard, and saying laywers are bad? I have no idea what your issue is, but you may want to inform yourself more about neurontin's current FDA issues, government-probed & civil lawsuit for false claims to docs for every disease left and right and the allarming high both abuse and suicide rate. Its successor, Lyrica is controlled substance and was heavy probed by the FDA (holdsups etc) and denied one of its main hopes for Pfizer - generalized anxiety disorder even though its effectiveness was at least minimally equivelent to benzos & superior and much better than SSRI's. Makes one wonder. I was giving my opinion on neurontin being poison not making an issue of forcing things down peoples throats so it strikes me odd you defend it so heavily.
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 5:20:51
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » Simcha, posted by lunesta on November 1, 2005, at 1:06:56
Hi lunesta
People might feel they want to defend a drug which they are taking if it is described as a poison, to which it is okay to take, if they are taking it forever...
As I said over on my post to you on Administration, one mans poison, can well be another mans potential life saver when it comes to psychiatric drugs.
Even everyday sugar can be like this in everyday life. Although when discussing 'poison' i'm not entirely sure Gabapentin fits the accurate desciption of the word, if it does, then that would mean all other drugs be them psychiatric, anti epileptic, lithium, etc, are for more harmful 'poisons' when compared to Gabapentin, when confronted with some various parts of medical evidence about the specific drug.
>being poison not making an issue of forcing things down peoples throats so it strikes me odd you defend it so heavily.
>get off it. the drug is poison. trust me on this i know a lot about it. it screws with a lot of systems especially substance P. Please get off the drug ASAP and stay away from lyrica too.
>Unless you plan to be on them forever.
How about - I had to get off it. I found the drug to be like a poison. I know alot about it from my experience. It alters many functions throughout the body. (as do all drugs) You might want to consider withdrawing from the drug under your doctors supervision. Also Lyrica is a similar drug, so it may be best to stay clear of that too as to avoid the same problem.
Unless you reacting differently of course, your milage may vary and it could be something else, but bear this in mind.
Kind regards
Nick
Ps how could you stay on it forever, if like you said over on Adminstration it is considered being taken off the market? (I replied to your post over there)
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 6:25:17
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read., posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 4:45:40
Hi lunesta
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with Neurontin (Gabapentin) It is one hell of a pain in the *ss to say the least when you take a drug to make you feel better, gain some relief and then the oppisite happens and the drug actually makes you worse.
I've had this myself, funnily enough (I have bipolar) and the actual 'approved' drugs (well as far as I know Lamictal isn't approved for bipolar depression in the UK, but it is in the US from what I understand) anyway when I took Lamictal the drug to me was as close to i've felt to being poisened, I was quite literally shaking, sweating, and at the same time was extreamly anxious and somewhat suicidal, or at least because of the effects of the drug I was getting those thoughts (but strangely there was a weird lift in my mood, but not a healthy one) - I was taking that drug in the depressed phase, and for me it made me worse so I stopped it ~ however I've read all over the internet and on here that the drug is excellent for treating depression people with or without bipolar, so like many, many of these drugs, the benzo's for example, quite literally a life saver for one person, and a potentially life threatening for another...
>but is finally serious now that so many people have had suicides or sudden death or attempted suicides and many other adverse serious problems.
This reminds me of a drug which has recieved lots of press over here about increased suicides / sucidal indealation and behaviour, the antidepressant Seroxat/Paxil - paroxetine. In a similar sense I think now that carries some kind of black box warning about increased suicidal behaviour, which is quite a contridiction in a sense as in one way when treating severe depression thats what it is attempting to prevent - not increase! Perhaps Neurontin/Gabapentin will in the future carry the same warning..
>gabapentin is one of the current drugs being considered to be taken off the market completely
Would you be able to offer any links to information about that?
>neurontin is in the top 5 of suicide rates/attempts of all FDA approved drugs.
Do you know what is in the top four?
With Paxil, according to this site the suicide rates were -
Accordingly, the results show that between 1993-2002, there were 6,000 and 19,000 persons in the US who were victims of Paxil-induced suicide
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/06/07.php
With Neurontin, according to the same site, the suicide rates were -
The FDA adverse drug event database, MedWatch, has received 258 documented fatal suicide reports involving patients prescribed Neurontin, for mostly unapproved, off-label uses
But ~
MedWatch reports represent only 1% to 10% of the actual adverse drug effects. Thus, 258 completed suicides represent between 2,580 suicides and 25,800 suicides attributed to Neurontin.
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/05/04/06.php
The drugs from what I can see and the rates on the site show date starting from around 92 - 93' ? Although I could be wrong..
Its weird, but when reading about benzodiazepines when they were first introduced everyone seemed to think that were the cure all for everything, then slowly but surely the stories of addiction and so on started to appear and then people thought diferently. The cycle sometimes starts to continue that now and again they are safe again - and then you here they're very dangerous.I don't know, I take Gabapentin and for me its probably the best psychiatric drug i've ever taken, Lamictal was one of the worst. When reading on babble I've sometimes seen that for some people Gabapentin is the worst thing for them, but yet Lamictal was the best. One mans poisen within psychiatric medication could well be another mans potential life saver? (or womans ;-)
It is sad about all the marketing to boost profits though, I read they had to pay $430 million when pleading guilty for.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2005, at 6:25:18
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read. » lunesta, posted by Nickengland on October 31, 2005, at 11:17:25
Nick why in the world would my pdoc suffest neurotin for anxiety? Fondly, Phillipa
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