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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Paul Smith on May 10, 2005, at 15:54:44
Most equalencies charts put .5 mgs of Klonopin as equal to 10 mgs of Valium. Yet it is not uncommon at at to hear of people on 3 to 4 mgs of Klonopin, which would be 60 to 80 mgs of Valium which is unheard of, no doc I think would even prescribe it. Have even heard of people on 6 mgs of Klonopin, 120 of Valium? No way! Why is this??
ALSO, my Valium does not work well anymore, 40 mgs, really cannot go any higher. Could it possibibly help to go to a 3 to 4 mgs of K? AND is K better on anxiety?
Posted by Phillipa on May 10, 2005, at 18:38:28
In reply to why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium, posted by Paul Smith on May 10, 2005, at 15:54:44
I think it's because klonopin is really for seizures and you can take up to 20mg for that. I know the experts will correct me if I'm wrong. Sometimes I wonder if any of these meds really affect anxiety although 5mg of valium used to make me say AAAAhhhh. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by woolav on May 11, 2005, at 5:51:55
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium » Paul Smith, posted by Phillipa on May 10, 2005, at 18:38:28
hi, phillipa is right. klonopin (which i take) is really for seisures. valium is an anti-anxiety drug/muscle relaxer. I guess it depends on what you are taking it for. I do take klonopin for panic disorder/social anxiety and it works better than xanax, valium or ativan. Its been a wonder drug for me. FYI i take 3mg daily of klonopin..
S
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 11, 2005, at 11:02:42
In reply to why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium, posted by Paul Smith on May 10, 2005, at 15:54:44
My guess would be becasue valium is more addictive than klonopin...they both are but I have a feeling valium is worse???
Posted by Paul Smith on May 11, 2005, at 16:16:23
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium, posted by rainbowbrite on May 11, 2005, at 11:02:42
> My guess would be becasue valium is more addictive than klonopin...they both are but I have a feeling valium is worse???
For a lot of people Valium and Xanax produce euphoria, is why they are common street drugs. Klonopin does not produce any high for a lot of people, including me, thus I suppose the "addictive," nature of the others, wanting to get high, drug seeking, taking more and more to get high due to tolerance, etc.
Posted by Paul Smith on May 11, 2005, at 16:25:43
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium, posted by woolav on May 11, 2005, at 5:51:55
> hi, phillipa is right. klonopin (which i take) is really for seisures. valium is an anti-anxiety drug/muscle relaxer. I guess it depends on what you are taking it for. I do take klonopin for panic disorder/social anxiety and it works better than xanax, valium or ativan. Its been a wonder drug for me. FYI i take 3mg daily of klonopin..
> SValium does almost zero for my anxiety anymore, though it never accelerates to panic. Part of the reason is my small dose of beta blocker, metaprolol 12.5 mgs a day, holds off palps and keeps my bp down. My panics seem to really take off with the heart thumping. May do a klonopin crossover. Will it help or make things worse? Only one way to find out. This much I know, for me at least Klonopin withdrawals are a much wilder ride than Valium, not saying the latter is any picnic. Is what has held me off...
Posted by Paul Smith on May 11, 2005, at 16:31:22
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium » Paul Smith, posted by Phillipa on May 10, 2005, at 18:38:28
> I think it's because klonopin is really for seizures and you can take up to 20mg for that. I know the experts will correct me if I'm wrong. Sometimes I wonder if any of these meds really affect anxiety although 5mg of valium used to make me say AAAAhhhh. Fondly, Phillipa<
Yep they make anyone that rarely takes them say "Ahhhhh," but for us, no... And the doses some of us are on standing, walking, and speaking clearly would knock them out cold for a 12 hour nap.
Posted by Phillipa on May 11, 2005, at 18:07:53
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium, posted by Paul Smith on May 11, 2005, at 16:25:43
They use valium a lot in detox from xanax and alchohol. They use it because they can withdraw it quickly because of it's long half-life. I don't think klonopin is used for this. Correct me if I'm wrong. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Paul Smith on May 12, 2005, at 3:03:23
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium, posted by Phillipa on May 11, 2005, at 18:07:53
> They use valium a lot in detox from xanax and alchohol. They use it because they can withdraw it quickly because of it's long half-life. I don't think klonopin is used for this. Correct me if I'm wrong. Fondly, Phillipa<
Yea it is all in who you talk to. Is klonopin really different? Some say yes, others say benzos are benzos, only differences being half lives and potencies. In other words (on the latter point) it just takes more mgs of Valium to get the same effect as Klonopin. And there are alot of opinions as to equvalencies. Some say 1 mg of Klonopin = 10 mgs of Valium, others, .5 mgs of Klonopin = 10 mgs of Valium. From my experience, I`d say the latter opinion is closer to true.
P.S. Getting fast detoxed from a benzo with another benzo in a hospital is a pure ripoff. The real detox starts when you get home and the replacment benzo wears off, 5 to 10 thousand dollars later. It is really unbelievable and I think it is more about a business venture than ignorance. No doc or R.N is that mentally challenged.
Posted by darkhorse on May 12, 2005, at 6:03:55
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin than Valium, posted by Paul Smith on May 12, 2005, at 3:03:23
Yes, BZ can be compared relativley in terms of potencies e.g. Clonazepam 0.25 equals Alprazolam 0.5...but that does not mean they give the same effect to every one...there are subtle/minore differences in the way they work on the brain and GABA, which makes a compound suits somebody but not for someone else.
- Some in general are more useful for epelipsy/seizures(Clonazepam/Clobazam/Diazepam)
- Some are more useful as hypnotics (Lormetazepam/Flunitrazepam)...etc.In a way their potencies are like when comparing (most) TCA's e.g. imipramine 75mg = amitriptyline 75mg.Although both may affect serotonin and NE equaly,they have some other differences (e.g Amitriptyline more sedating because of its potent histamine effects..etc)
-- I think IMO the most important thing about BZ equivelant charts is when one compound does not work, and need to try a different one,or if there is difficulty in tapering a BZ that was useful, with a longer acting one.
In this regard there is a cross-tolerance between the compounds, same as SSRI's. e.g. if one has a problem stopping Paroxetine, he could be switched to Fluoxetine to make withdrawal smoother ( I tried this with Venlafaxine and it was not difficult at all).
- If the only difference between benzos are potencies, then they would might as well all be called Chlordiazepoxide (the 1st ever BZ).
- In my experience, after trying lots and lots of BZ and AD's, in the end it all depend on one's personal experience and what he/she feels most suits him/her.
All what we write as our experiences or what we read in books are just guidlines...Sorry for all this babbeling!!
DH
Posted by Phillipa on May 12, 2005, at 18:04:04
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin: An opi, posted by darkhorse on May 12, 2005, at 6:03:55
DH, you're right. Way back when I was first started on valium. Then I csn't remember why, the pdoc switched me to librium. It didn't work at all. So I was switched back to valium and meprobamate was added. The former I just stopped when I no longer felt like I needed it. No side effects at all. Now the post above about detox and the expensive hospitals. I had a unique experience. I was working as an RN in psych. My anxiety skyrocketed and I rushed to the office of one of the docs I worked with who called my pdoc with me there. Since he didn't see me, the same thing happened the next day. I again rushed to her office where she injected me with 2mg of ativan. Felt much better. She was concerned about me and we were friends so she "hid" me on the small detox unit that is reserved for the indigent. About 6 beds. There they detoxed me from xanax and beer in 3 days. When I left I was down from 60mg of valium to 5mg with my usual l0mg of paxil that worked at the time. I then saw my old pdoc who put me in the hospital. They found out it was my TSH was up to 22 and needed to be adjusted. But my point is I never felt better in my life than I did on that 5mg of valium I left on. My pdoc put me on ativan and luvox in the hospital with chloral hydrate to sleep and said no more beer to sleep. What do you think would have happened to me if I had not gone to the hospital after detox? Do you think that once the valium wore off it would have been a nightmare? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on May 12, 2005, at 18:09:34
In reply to Re: why can you take so much more Klonopin: An opi, posted by darkhorse on May 12, 2005, at 6:03:55
Paul, What did you mean by the statement that no doc or RN is that mentally challenged? Maybe it's the valium I take but I don't understand what you mean. If you mean the doc, then I guess you mean he's the one who Rx the med, but RN's don't Rx meds so I'm confused. Fondly, Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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