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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ed_uk on January 14, 2005, at 17:14:03
To anyone who takes Adderall, Dexedrine or other amphetamines.....
Do you take any supplements (or other drugs) in attempt to reduce the *potential* risk of neurotoxicity? If so, what dose(s) do you take?
Does anyone take,
Alpha-lipoic acid, vitamin C, acetylcysteine, selenium etc.
Does anyone have any advice on what would be safe and appropriate doses of these supplements for a person who takes amphetamines?
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on January 14, 2005, at 18:08:33
In reply to Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity, posted by ed_uk on January 14, 2005, at 17:14:03
PS. I forgot to mention L-Carnitine.
Posted by linkadge on January 14, 2005, at 18:53:18
In reply to Re: Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity, posted by ed_uk on January 14, 2005, at 18:08:33
I read somewhere that increasing the neuroprotective protein BCL-2 decreases methamphetamine neurotoxicity. Lithium and Divalproex increase BCL-2, as does olanzapine.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on January 14, 2005, at 19:47:38
In reply to Re: Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity, posted by linkadge on January 14, 2005, at 18:53:18
Thanks Link,
I found this....
Brain Res. 2004 Aug 27;1018(2):186-92.
Neuroprotective effects of olanzapine on methamphetamine-induced neurotoxicity are associated with an inhibition of hyperthermia and prevention of Bcl-2 decrease in rats.
He J, Xu H, Yang Y, Zhang X, Li XM.
It is hypothesized that atypical antipsychotic drugs have neuroprotective effects which may be one of the mechanisms in treatment of schizophrenia. We investigated the neuroprotective effects of olanzapine (OLA), an atypical antipsychotic drug, on methamphetamine (METH)-induced neurotoxicity in rats. After pretreatment with OLA (2 mg/kg/day) by intraperitoneal injection for 2 weeks, rats were administered METH (7.5 mg/kg, four times at 2-h intervals) by subcutaneous injection while their body temperature was monitored. The rats were sacrificed 24 h after the last injection of METH for immunohistochemistry. METH-induced 24 h mortality was effectively reduced and METH-induced decrease of tyrosine hydroxylase immunoreactivity in caudate putamen (CPu) was significantly attenuated by OLA chronic pretreatment. Furthermore, we showed that the above neuroprotective potential of OLA might be associated with its attenuating effects on METH-induced hyperthermia and with its preventative actions on METH-induced decrease of Bcl-2, an anti-apoptotic gene product, in the CPu. Our results suggest that OLA may be a neuroprotective agent and that its neuroprotective potential may contribute to its therapeutic effects in treatment of schizophrenia.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by mmcconathy on January 14, 2005, at 19:52:22
In reply to Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity, posted by ed_uk on January 14, 2005, at 17:14:03
Oh my gosh, crap i thought only happens with those Desoxyn poppers, methamphetmaine is destructive.
Tell me i need to know before i have a panic attack, and i dont have any more Klonopin either....
Do you become more dumb or something, well obviously from less dopamine, so less mental task preformances.
TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2005, at 22:23:05
In reply to Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity, posted by ed_uk on January 14, 2005, at 17:14:03
Check out L-carnitine. Amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity might be caused by the oxidative stress produced by the formation of free radicals by excess intracellular dopamine. It messes with mitochondria. The L-carnitine helps the mitochondria take up the long-chain fatty acids that help suck up the little beasties.
How concerned are you that neurotoxicity occurs at therapeutic dosages?
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 9:19:29
In reply to Re: Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity » ed_uk, posted by SLS on January 22, 2005, at 22:23:05
Hi Scott,
Thank you for the suggestion :-)
How are you doing? Still on nort?
>How concerned are you that neurotoxicity occurs at therapeutic dosages?
I would be very concerned if I was taking an amphetamine daily over a long period of time. It's very unlikely that I'll ever get the opportunity to try an amphetamine though.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by SLS on January 23, 2005, at 10:33:05
In reply to Re: Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity » SLS, posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 9:19:29
Hi Ed.
> Thank you for the suggestion :-)
You're velcome.
> How are you doing? Still on nort?
I had a few weeks where I felt enough energy to go out and run a bunch of errands. This past week hasn't been so good, though, and I'm not sure why. One suspicion I have is that my pharmacy changed the generic supplier of nortriptyline, and that the preparation is different enough so that it is of less efficacy than the preparation I had used up until that point.
> > How concerned are you that neurotoxicity occurs at therapeutic dosages?
> I would be very concerned if I was taking an amphetamine daily over a long period of time. It's very unlikely that I'll ever get the opportunity to try an amphetamine though.
I really haven't been keeping up. A few years ago, there was little, if any, concern over the potential for amhetamine to produce neurotoxicity. I can see that more recent literature is considering this to be fact. I wonder how much debate remains whether this toxicity occurs at all at therapeutically relevant dosages. I guess you are convinced that it does. Most everything is toxic in extreme amounts. There is always a specific set of mechanisms by which these toxicities occurs with each substance. Is the damage produced by amphetamine to DA terminals the mechanism by which it becomes harmful only at supratherapeutic toxic dosages, or does it occur at every dosage? The mitochondrial thing does seem possible. I wonder if there is some minimal concentration of intracellular DA, below which neurotoxicity does not occur. I guess I am still holding out hope that amphetamine is not harmful at therapeutic dosages, despite the proposition by some that it is. In any event, it seems that the damage produced to rat brains by exposure to high dosages of amphetamine for short periods of time is in some way reversible.
What a silly ramble.
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 10:50:47
In reply to Re: Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity » ed_uk, posted by SLS on January 23, 2005, at 10:33:05
Hi Scott,
>One suspicion I have is that my pharmacy changed the generic supplier of nortriptyline, and that the preparation is different enough so that it is of less efficacy than the preparation I had used up until that point.
Can you get a prescription specifically for Pamelor?
>I wonder how much debate remains whether this toxicity occurs at all at therapeutically relevant dosages. I guess you are convinced that it does.
No, I'm not convinced that it does... but the possibility of neurotoxicity is rather disturbing.
>What a silly ramble.
No, it wasn't silly at all :-)
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by mmcconathy on January 25, 2005, at 18:30:05
In reply to Re: Preventing amphetamine neurotoxicity » SLS, posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 10:50:47
I just stepped off from 60mg of adderall which really wore me down, i was exhasted daily, i had to stop, i then went back on 40mg
30mg didnt have much effect, and it had sort of a zombie side effect, i could concentrate but didnt express emotional well.
60mg was effective for a long time, but i realize it was just tooo high.
I am going to stop addrerall soon, to let dopamine terminals totally replenish them selves, start fish oils to repair if their was damage done.
From then i am going to find something elsel, Cylert, or Focalin that i dont have to worry about nuerotoxity.
Linkage told me that 60mg was not neraly near a nuerotoxic dose, but i took this daily, for months which completly warped me over time.
I never took over 60mg because over that other side effects kick in, more nervousness, and even more exhaustion.
I hate amphetamines.
Matt
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