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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 21:58:32
In reply to meditation » ravenstorm, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 21:54:53
No, it does not seem controllable by meditation, relaxation techniques.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:03:56
In reply to Re: meditation, posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 21:58:32
Doesn't it even help a little?
I mean if meditation is about bringing your body into a state of relaxation and then you develop the ability to be able to do this when you feel anxious...
Oh well, doesn't work :-)
Posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 22:14:45
In reply to Re: meditation » ravenstorm, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:03:56
I don't have panic attacks anymore (well, I am living a pretty limited life right now, maybe if I was trying to do more I would freak out) so I know it has helped with that. But I still have some very intense physical anxiety on a daily basis. Hard to describe, but I can actually shake from it, stomach is in knotts, feels like I'm bursting out of my skin. I can keep it from going into an attack through breathing etc but that is it. Most times, there is no outside event causing this feeling. I am feeling it for no reason at all. I can't just continue to live like this. I need pharmacological help.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:37:27
In reply to Re: meditation, posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 22:14:45
Sure. I guess that I am just wary of anti anxiety medications for a variety of reasons.
Maybe if you keep practising with the meditation it will get more effective?
It certaintly can't hurt, and it may help your medication out too.
Hope you feel better soon.
Posted by jujube on November 26, 2004, at 22:49:30
In reply to Re: meditation, posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 22:14:45
I am sure you have already thought about this, but have you had your blood sugar checked? Anxiety with physical symptoms (e.g., shaking, dizziness, nausea, etc.) can be a sign of hypoglycemia. A person does not have to be a full-blown hypoglycemic, however, to experience the adverse effects of drops in blood sugar. This may sound stupid, but prior to your appointment with your pdoc, next time you have an anxiety attack, try eating some almonds or a small piece of cheese with a cracker. If the anxiety goes away, you will know that blood sugar could be the culprit. My family doctor explained that to me. She is an anxiety/panic sufferer, and she explained that when she starts having what she considers an "attack", she thinks about when she last ate, what she ate, and then has a little bite to eat if the "attack" could have possibly been caused by a drop in blood sugar. This practice has helped me out at times too.
Tamara
> I don't have panic attacks anymore (well, I am living a pretty limited life right now, maybe if I was trying to do more I would freak out) so I know it has helped with that. But I still have some very intense physical anxiety on a daily basis. Hard to describe, but I can actually shake from it, stomach is in knotts, feels like I'm bursting out of my skin. I can keep it from going into an attack through breathing etc but that is it. Most times, there is no outside event causing this feeling. I am feeling it for no reason at all. I can't just continue to live like this. I need pharmacological help.
Posted by jujube on November 26, 2004, at 22:55:33
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 21:47:17
> OH yeah, Nortrip. didn't help my anxiety at all, (maybe exasperated it), but then again I didn't get up to a therapeutic level.
>
> I have heard that buspar can actually sometimes take as long or longer than an SSRI to work (sometimes up to eight weeks). What side effects did you experience on it/starting up on it?
>
> Thanks to both of you for taking time to reply to my query.I don't recall having experienced any side effects when I started Buspar. But, as I said, I didn't take it for more than a couple of weeks, and even then I wasn't consistent with the dosing (multiple doses). And, yes, Buspar's effects do not kick in immediately. It apparently takes up to 4 weeks for it to reach full effect (like a SSRI).
Tamara
Posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 23:22:50
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety » ravenstorm, posted by jujube on November 26, 2004, at 22:55:33
Actually, I am hypoglycemic and unfortunately the remeron makes it worse. I used to have to make sure I ate no more than four hours apart. On remeron my blood sugar plummets about every 2.5hours but I just can't eat that often or I will get huge. From now on I will know, if a med causes weight gain, its probably from messing with your blood sugar, and I won't take it. Unfortunately I am stuck on this remeron at least until spring if not longer if I can find nothing to replace it with.
Alexandra, I know you mean well, but if meditating, amino acids, supplements, vitamins, and every other alternative therapy were going to cure me, I would be cured by now. In fact, if my husband had not badgered me to go through the final paxil withdrawal (I was only on 2mg for a year to keep from going through withdrawal) in order to try supplements, I would not have gone through the past year of hell, including over nine months of severe suicidal ideation etc etc. I would have a life right now if I had stayed on paxil rather than listening to everyone who said I should be able to meditate etc etc myself better. No one tells a diabetic to meditate themselves off insulin.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 0:44:49
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 23:22:50
> Alexandra, I know you mean well, but if meditating, amino acids, supplements, vitamins, and every other alternative therapy were going to cure me, I would be cured by now. In fact, if my husband had not badgered me to go through the final paxil withdrawal (I was only on 2mg for a year to keep from going through withdrawal) in order to try supplements, I would not have gone through the past year of hell, including over nine months of severe suicidal ideation etc etc. I would have a life right now if I had stayed on paxil rather than listening to everyone who said I should be able to meditate etc etc myself better. No one tells a diabetic to meditate themselves off insulin.
I wouldn't tell someone with diabetes to meditate themself off insulin.
I wouldn't tell someone with bi-polar to meditate themself off mood stabilisers.
I wouldn't tell someone with psychosis to meditate themself off anti-psychotics.I don't know very much about medications...
Or medical conditions...
I suppose I was thinking that anxiety would seem to be something that meditation could assist with, however.
I realise that meditation is more or less hard depending on what is going on with your body.
I have trouble relaxing with meditation when I have pumped myself full of coffee and coke.But it sounded to me like you had tried loads of different medications and they hadn't really assisted.
I am weary of benzo's because if they work they work too well. Pop a pill and wait for the wave of relaxation and before you know it you are hooked to the instant release: both psychologically and physically.I don't mind what you do, I was just trying to provide an alternative perspective...
I can only speak from my experience because I am not a professional. All I know is that meditation, while not a cure, assists me more with anxiety than any drug ever has.
But that is just my experience. And I do not mean to be gloomy about your prospects for improvement. I mean to be in glowing praise of the power of meditation to alleviate anxiety.
Take care.
Posted by banga on November 27, 2004, at 1:53:59
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 0:44:49
Some of the newer antipsychotics have a side benefit of helping anxiety. Geodon helped me, and it does not cause weight gain. But as always with these drugs, some swear by it, some others report very serious negative reactions. In any case, just putting that out there, but important to discuss this with your pdoc.
In my case, I discontinued Geodon to find other means, but I know it is there if other tings dont work and I hit a rough spot. Effects showed after about 4 days.
I also was helped by Anafranil, but it can cause weight gain.
Good luck.
Posted by jujube on November 27, 2004, at 7:52:02
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 26, 2004, at 23:22:50
Ravenstorm,
You mention that you have tried natural supplements. Have you tried 500 mg of niacinimide, three times a day? This dose is supposed to be very good for anxiety. Also, to help stabilize your blood sugars, perhaps supplementing with L-Glutamine (500 mg in the am upon rising and even another 500 mg mid-morning) and 400 mg of chromium (200 mg in the am upon rising and 200 mg before going to bed) might help. Both of these supplements are also supposed to help stablize blood sugar. Finally, have you tried accupuncture? If not, it might be worth a try.
I hope you find something to help you.
Tamara
> Actually, I am hypoglycemic and unfortunately the remeron makes it worse. I used to have to make sure I ate no more than four hours apart. On remeron my blood sugar plummets about every 2.5hours but I just can't eat that often or I will get huge. From now on I will know, if a med causes weight gain, its probably from messing with your blood sugar, and I won't take it. Unfortunately I am stuck on this remeron at least until spring if not longer if I can find nothing to replace it with.
>
> Alexandra, I know you mean well, but if meditating, amino acids, supplements, vitamins, and every other alternative therapy were going to cure me, I would be cured by now. In fact, if my husband had not badgered me to go through the final paxil withdrawal (I was only on 2mg for a year to keep from going through withdrawal) in order to try supplements, I would not have gone through the past year of hell, including over nine months of severe suicidal ideation etc etc. I would have a life right now if I had stayed on paxil rather than listening to everyone who said I should be able to meditate etc etc myself better. No one tells a diabetic to meditate themselves off insulin.
Posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 9:56:33
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety » ravenstorm, posted by jujube on November 27, 2004, at 7:52:02
unfortunately, my stomach is so sensitive, I can not take B vitamins. (Some of them come sublingually so I take those) I think that is the reason I get so sick on SSRI's too. My stomach is just so weak. I was using chromium picolinate and it did work on blood sugar, but had stomach upset with it (but not anywhere near as bad as the others) and it also seemed to affect my mood, which I didn't put together with the picolinate until I read some studies out of Berkley and the UK that picolinate can affect neurotransmitters and can also cause chromosomal damage. They were adamant about not using picolinate.
I have not tried glutamate but will look into trying that. Maybe it will do what the picolinate did without the problems.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 10:04:33
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 9:56:33
About the antipsychotics, I'm reserving those as a last resort (but yes I am considering them). So Geodon and Abilify are the ones that are weight neutral right? With my luck with meds, I'll be the one in however many thousand that ends up with TD or what not. Thanks for the suggestion though. It is good to hear about peoples positive experiences with the new anti-psychotics.
Thanks everybody for the suggestions!
Posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 10:18:52
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 9:56:33
Alexandra,
So you wouldn't tell someone with bipolar or psychosis to meditate themselves off medication, but you would tell someone with suicidal major depression with comorbid anxiety too?? That doesn't make sense. The suicidal ideation only lessened after adding remeron. Unfortunately, I can only take a low dose which is not doing enough for the anxiety or the depression. I never had anxiety like this before going on paxil/going through withdrawal. (Yes, I had social anxiety and GAD but never this physical, for no reason whatsoever anxiety) To some extent I believe it is medication induced and I am looking for something to add to the measly amount of remeron to help balance me out. Like I said, I tried for over nine months to get energy healings, meditate etc etc and I wanted to kill myself everyday until I was finally able to get onto an AD.
I understand your reluctance about benzos. But I can't take benzos so it isn't really pertinent to this conversation. On that note, though, on other boards, there are people who say they would pick benzo or opiod withdrawal over effexor or paxil withdrawal anyday. I have not been through benzo or opiod withdrawal so I don't know if that is true or not. My withdrawal was the worst my pdoc had ever seen.
I think we have covered the topic of meditation thoroughly, so what is your motivation by continually bringing it up again?
Posted by crazychickuk on November 27, 2004, at 12:10:04
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 10:18:52
No affence but if u r gonna try an ap leave geoden till last.. try zyprexa first..
good luck with your find...
hope it all works out for u, keep us posted when u found the right one..
Posted by jujube on November 27, 2004, at 16:55:23
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 9:56:33
Ravenstorm,
Have you given Lamictal, which I believe is used as a mood stabilizer, any consideration? I think it is supposed to have some antidepressant qualities, and may be good to augment a small dose of Remeron. Also, and excuse me if I missed something, but is the reason you don't want to go back to Paxil due to the fact that you had such an awful time withdrawing from it?
Tamara
> unfortunately, my stomach is so sensitive, I can not take B vitamins. (Some of them come sublingually so I take those) I think that is the reason I get so sick on SSRI's too. My stomach is just so weak. I was using chromium picolinate and it did work on blood sugar, but had stomach upset with it (but not anywhere near as bad as the others) and it also seemed to affect my mood, which I didn't put together with the picolinate until I read some studies out of Berkley and the UK that picolinate can affect neurotransmitters and can also cause chromosomal damage. They were adamant about not using picolinate.
>
> I have not tried glutamate but will look into trying that. Maybe it will do what the picolinate did without the problems.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
Posted by smokeymadison on November 27, 2004, at 17:40:38
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 10:18:52
hey,
i have found Gabitril to be very helpful with anxiety. it is an anticonvulsant also used to stabilize mood. i used to take it twice daily but i now only take it as needed. i found, that for me, i took at least 4 mg to notice a difference in my anxiety. Over 8 mg i was too sedated. some people go up to 20-something mg. it might be more activating at higher doses, i am not sure. it doesn't work like benzos; it takes longer to kick in and isn't addictive as far as i know. if you have anxiety all the time, it might be a good drug for you to take continuously. good luck!
Posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 18:10:57
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by smokeymadison on November 27, 2004, at 17:40:38
Won't go back on paxil because I literally will not live through the withdrawal if it does not work for me again (and I hear LOTS of stories of it not working the second time aroung). Also, I had been on it for like six years (Started at 20mg and then was able to decrease it over the years) and I got more and more tired on it. Unfortunately, I had to take it in the morning rather than the evening because if I took it at night it made my GERD so much worse it started to erode my esophagus, even on prilosec. My stomach seems to be much worse for wear after years on SSRIs. I tried prozac for ten weeks and never got over the extreme stomach upset (And it didn't work--but I was only on 10mg). Lost a bunch more weight over that experiment. Bummer. Would have liked to have been on prozac cause of the long half life.
I have considered lamictal, thanks for reminding me to add that to the list! It sounds like a good drug, but I have also heard that some people get more anxious and agitated on it. But, as we all know, I won't know until I try it. I am a little worried about mood stabilizers if I'm not bipolar. . .Will they make you worse? Neurontin made me more depressed (crying, crying) and so tired I couldn't function.
Your input is much appreciated
Posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 18:14:42
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by smokeymadison on November 27, 2004, at 17:40:38
Someone told me that gabitril and neurontin function very similarly. Is that true? Because I didn't do well at all on neurontin. It did calm me down, but it also made me more depressed and non functional.
My anxiety is pretty continuous, so I am looking to take something on an ongoing basis. Do you know anything else about gabitril? How does it work? Is it hard on the stomach? I will definitely add this to the list as well.
Posted by smokeymadison on November 27, 2004, at 23:49:41
In reply to Re: Smokeymadison, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 18:14:42
it works on gabba receptors. i used to know exactly what it did, but it has been a while since i looked up all the info. i have taken neurontin too, and it made me much more sedated than gabitril. Neurontin also messed up my vision b/c it bound to my eye. something else i just remembered--Gabitril is sometimes used for chronic pain and headaches. that said, it worked paradoxically w/ me and caused some joint pain the first few weeks i was on it but that cleared up and i haven't had any problems with it since. it has helped with my headaches, i think. i would suggest entering "Gabitril" into Yahoo and finding the offical site for the med. it is usually one of the first twenty or so web sites that come up on Yahoo. good luck!
Posted by jujube on November 28, 2004, at 8:25:32
In reply to Re: jujube, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 18:10:57
I was also on Paxil for about 6 years. When I tried it again early this year, it didn't work. I, too, have heard that it sometimes doesn't work the second time around, although some have successfully restarted it. I was fortunate in that I didn't really experience any withdrawal from Paxil, at least nothing that was obvious or debilitating. I had been doing a slow taper on my own for some time, and was only taking 1/2 a dose every other day. So when I stopped, it was not bad at all. I was probably one of the lucky ones.
I really don't know much about Lamictal, other than that some people use it to augment their AD and seem to have success with it. I don't know if you have tried Celexa, but it seems to be a much gentler AD than Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft, and is pretty good for anxiety (at least that has been my experience). Perhaps you could switch to a low dose of Celexa, get off the Remeron and add Lamictal. I don't know what your experience has been like on Remeron, but a friend of mine was on it, and she hated it. She gained a ton of weight and was tired all the time. But, everybody is different.
I hope you find something to help you. Good luck, and take care.
Tamara
> Won't go back on paxil because I literally will not live through the withdrawal if it does not work for me again (and I hear LOTS of stories of it not working the second time aroung). Also, I had been on it for like six years (Started at 20mg and then was able to decrease it over the years) and I got more and more tired on it. Unfortunately, I had to take it in the morning rather than the evening because if I took it at night it made my GERD so much worse it started to erode my esophagus, even on prilosec. My stomach seems to be much worse for wear after years on SSRIs. I tried prozac for ten weeks and never got over the extreme stomach upset (And it didn't work--but I was only on 10mg). Lost a bunch more weight over that experiment. Bummer. Would have liked to have been on prozac cause of the long half life.
>
> I have considered lamictal, thanks for reminding me to add that to the list! It sounds like a good drug, but I have also heard that some people get more anxious and agitated on it. But, as we all know, I won't know until I try it. I am a little worried about mood stabilizers if I'm not bipolar. . .Will they make you worse? Neurontin made me more depressed (crying, crying) and so tired I couldn't function.
>
> Your input is much appreciated
Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2004, at 23:13:03
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 10:18:52
> So you wouldn't tell someone with bipolar or psychosis to meditate themselves off medication, but you would tell someone with suicidal major depression with comorbid anxiety too??
Nope, indeed I would not. If you were taking a medication that was assisting you then I would not suggest that you meditate yourself off it. But from what I gathered from your posts the problem is that you do not currently have anything that is working for you. You asked what might assist anxiety and I replied that meditation may assist. You posted that you have experienced problems with medications and so I thought that meditation may be particularly helpful to someone in that kind of situation.
>The suicidal ideation only lessened after adding remeron.
Terrific!
>To some extent I believe it is medication induced and I am looking for something to add to the measly amount of remeron to help balance me out.
Hmm. If you think that your anxiety is medication induced then I don't understand why you are so keen to have even more medication to assist with side affects. Another medication may assist with the side affect of anxiety, but may have side affects of its own. And then (by that logic) you would require another medication... and so it goes on...
> I think we have covered the topic of meditation thoroughly, so what is your motivation by continually bringing it up again?
Probably the fact that you respond to my posts on meditation... and then I respond to your response... and you respond to my response to your response... and so it goes on. That tends to be how conversations work. That seems to be how topics of conversations are continued. I do not think that I am 'continually bringing it up again' - rather it seems to be the topic of our conversation.
Any way, good luck with the search for the 'cure'. I hope you find what you are looking for.
Posted by HermanMunster on November 28, 2004, at 23:53:34
In reply to Re: Smokeymadison, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 18:14:42
Is this the same as Smokey and the Bandit?
Posted by HermanMunster on November 28, 2004, at 23:54:33
In reply to Re: Is there anything left I haven't tried for anxiety, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 0:44:49
Masturbation will fix your anxiety!
Posted by smokeymadison on November 29, 2004, at 1:59:39
In reply to Re: Smokeymadison, posted by HermanMunster on November 28, 2004, at 23:53:34
nope. i have posted off and on for the past few years, but i am not the smokeybandit person.
Posted by theo on November 29, 2004, at 7:07:58
In reply to Re: jujube, posted by ravenstorm on November 27, 2004, at 18:10:57
Paxil CR skips the stomach and activates in the lower bowel, which eliminates all the side effects (GERD) you mentioned. It's also controlled release (releases over 5-6 hours) and is not as dramatic as regular Paxil.
For anxiety, you can take 12.5mg and get good results. May be worth a try and your doctor should have plenty of samples.
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