![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 13:00:36
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
I just read back to see what you were on...and wow. I'd like to think I'd have less interaction merely because I'm on about 1/6 of the medications your on (e.g. ONE!).
Good to hear someone else thought of it tho...did you try the gingko at a lower dosage, tho, btw?I tend to think the interactions are med-specific tho, so I'm still hoping someone on Wb will answer....
sl
Posted by Pogo on May 2, 2002, at 23:23:00
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
I take a high dose of Ritalin for ADD. I tried
SJWort laced with Ginsing\Ginko which worked better for me than straight SJWort- calming my mind down and reducing the mental "Flat" times. I tried SJWort + Ginseng + Ginko, which got me nowhere. I seemed to get heart palpatations (which I forgot to tell my pnurse) and slight tremors in a particular finger of my left hand, which my pnurse picked up on, resulting in
a physical exam. I didn't like taking those herbs. When I stopped taking them, the palpations
and finger tremors stopped.For the past month, I've been taking Omega-3
supplements, 10 Grams Omega-3 (EPA + DHA).
It works a whole lot better for me than the Herbal
Remedies. The moods have flattend out, the "Flat"
mind does'nt at all rear its Ugly Head. I also
sleep a lot better since I stopped with the Herbal Remedies.In addition, I take Sam-e(s) to speed up the Ritalin. Sam-e acts fast for me, much like a cup
of coffee. I used drink coffee when on the Ritalin, but had real bad experience(s)- over stimulated.I never knew why my mind would go "Flat" like that, its very frustrating. When I'd go "Flat",
I'd struggle verbally, amoung other things.regards,
Pogo.
Posted by Phil on May 3, 2002, at 6:28:40
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
Always nice seeing your name. I just started on Gingko and bought the Twinlab time released. It seems to be helping and I haven't felt agitated. At least not more agitated than the Wellbutrin makes me. I bought it from www.Vitacost.com ...their prices are low. I got my vitamins and G in 2 days. My brother ordered the same day I did. He lives in Vegas and got his at the same time.
Twinlab daily one caps: 60ea. from grocery stores here are about 16.00. I got the 180 count for 21.00.
Posted by k9lover on May 3, 2002, at 7:36:13
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on May 1, 2002, at 16:27:20
Hi
I also track mood (0-10) and drugs - on Excel. The little graphs I can produce then really show me that I'm either down or usually not as bad as I think I am and this is correlated with meds and events. It helps to have such an objective thing when often when I feel low, I think I'm always and permanently depressed - the chart always proves me wrong - a good thing!
Jan
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by k9lover on May 3, 2002, at 7:36:13
.. tell ?
Hi Ya'll,
( It has been awhile... so please excuse..)
I'm VERY intersted in this topic/thread... I too have relied on my ability to write, and my intellect to accomplish much of what I have in my life, and when I started taking meds, I experienced much of what has been discussed in this thread.
I ended up quitting all meds, but that is another story.. I wanted to interject a thought into this discussion ( I hope it is okay!)..
I've been interested in these things for a long time now, and have done alot of informal research on it. I've lurked on numerous "mental health" message boards, as well as have participated in quite a few. The "side effects" of many of these meds are often discussed, and the experiences strikingly similar amoungst the users. I have very often read posts from individuals wishing they could be "like I used to be".. Cognition, socialiablity, work and other interpersonal relationships and abilty to "interact", weight gain, sexual dysfuntion, physical effects, etc are often listed, and complained about.
One thing that I "see" in many of these conversations is an absence of corrolating the extent to which the "side effects" of these meds, as listed above, contribute to the very symptoms the drugs are trying to relieve. Of course a once bright, witty, gregarious, attractive woman is going to be depressed when they gain a lot of weight, lose their "verve", can't think clearly, can't "feel" emotionally, and have been "indoctrinated" by a society and system that tells them they are "sick". ( This isn't meant to devalue the very real experiences we go through, independant of the "side effects" of these drugs, but is meant solely to try to get us to think about what it really is we're trying to "fix". NO offence intended!)
I tried a couple different meds, and could not stand the "dullness" and apathy they created in me. I tried others that I felt had very few "side effects". But I was so completely amazed when I finally quit cold turkey ( I know, not a "smart" thing to do, but I was desperate..), to find out the extent to which even THOSE meds had altered my ways of thinking and perception. While ON the drugs, and being "affected", it was impossible for me to see objectively what impacts they really were having. Even in self reporting or charting my moods, I was still hopelessly "subjective".
So.. part of what I'm responding to is exactly what the title of this thread is " Stupid from drugs or from depression" .. It might be re-written to say " Depressed from drugs making me stupid?"..
This isn't to say that drugs don't have value. They do. ( Although I have seen clinical, double blind research studies that show Zoloft, etc are no more effective than placebo..) But I think each of us needs to be VERY careful in first identifying what it is we are trying to "fix", before starting on a pharmocological treatment program. Are the sources of our depression, anxiety, panic, etc "situational".. as in caused by situations and circumstances in our life we may be reacting to in ways that therapy may help, or are there "other" issues involved. Even the idea of a "Chemical Imbalance" has yet to be proven. ( You'll note they use the phrases "might be", "is thought to be", etc..)..
So.. before you give your "life away" to these drugs, one approach might be to get some good professional help to specifically identify the sources of your "problems". No one pretends to "know".. everyone involved is just doing the best they can with the ever changing information, theories and concepts.
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
Posted by Ant-Rock on May 3, 2002, at 17:00:41
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
> .. tell ?
>
> Hi Ya'll,
>
> ( It has been awhile... so please excuse..)
>
> I'm VERY intersted in this topic/thread... I too have relied on my ability to write, and my intellect to accomplish much of what I have in my life, and when I started taking meds, I experienced much of what has been discussed in this thread.
>
> I ended up quitting all meds, but that is another story.. I wanted to interject a thought into this discussion ( I hope it is okay!)..
>
> I've been interested in these things for a long time now, and have done alot of informal research on it. I've lurked on numerous "mental health" message boards, as well as have participated in quite a few. The "side effects" of many of these meds are often discussed, and the experiences strikingly similar amoungst the users. I have very often read posts from individuals wishing they could be "like I used to be".. Cognition, socialiablity, work and other interpersonal relationships and abilty to "interact", weight gain, sexual dysfuntion, physical effects, etc are often listed, and complained about.
>
> One thing that I "see" in many of these conversations is an absence of corrolating the extent to which the "side effects" of these meds, as listed above, contribute to the very symptoms the drugs are trying to relieve. Of course a once bright, witty, gregarious, attractive woman is going to be depressed when they gain a lot of weight, lose their "verve", can't think clearly, can't "feel" emotionally, and have been "indoctrinated" by a society and system that tells them they are "sick". ( This isn't meant to devalue the very real experiences we go through, independant of the "side effects" of these drugs, but is meant solely to try to get us to think about what it really is we're trying to "fix". NO offence intended!)
>
> I tried a couple different meds, and could not stand the "dullness" and apathy they created in me. I tried others that I felt had very few "side effects". But I was so completely amazed when I finally quit cold turkey ( I know, not a "smart" thing to do, but I was desperate..), to find out the extent to which even THOSE meds had altered my ways of thinking and perception. While ON the drugs, and being "affected", it was impossible for me to see objectively what impacts they really were having. Even in self reporting or charting my moods, I was still hopelessly "subjective".
>
> So.. part of what I'm responding to is exactly what the title of this thread is " Stupid from drugs or from depression" .. It might be re-written to say " Depressed from drugs making me stupid?"..
>
> This isn't to say that drugs don't have value. They do. ( Although I have seen clinical, double blind research studies that show Zoloft, etc are no more effective than placebo..) But I think each of us needs to be VERY careful in first identifying what it is we are trying to "fix", before starting on a pharmocological treatment program. Are the sources of our depression, anxiety, panic, etc "situational".. as in caused by situations and circumstances in our life we may be reacting to in ways that therapy may help, or are there "other" issues involved. Even the idea of a "Chemical Imbalance" has yet to be proven. ( You'll note they use the phrases "might be", "is thought to be", etc..)..
>
> So.. before you give your "life away" to these drugs, one approach might be to get some good professional help to specifically identify the sources of your "problems". No one pretends to "know".. everyone involved is just doing the best they can with the ever changing information, theories and concepts.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> UppendownHello Uppendown,
Do you know if the older Tricyclic AD's cause these same problems(apathy,numbness,cog-probs)?I know everyone is different, but in general terms.
Thank you,Ant-Rock
Posted by Cindylou on May 3, 2002, at 17:03:28
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
Hi Dove,
I am also very intrigued by this Verapamil, and actually faxed your message to my pdoc.I was wondering if it had any side effects for you -- did it make you fatigued? Are you able to tolerate other mood stabilizers like Lithium without fatigue? I think my pdoc said that Verapamil is mainly for Bipolar I (I'm BPII), and that it just works for people who respond to Lithium (I wasn't able to tolerate Lithium due to the fatigue.)
Thanks in advance! This is really interesting...
cindy
> > Can you post more on your experience with verapamil? What else were you on while taking it? How long did it take to have a beneficial effect? Since I have had some similar side effects to you as other drugs you've been on, I wonder how it would affect me.... I need to look into it.
> >
> >
>
> Verapamil was initially prescribed for my migraines with blackout/fainting aura. It was the first med that ever had a positive effect on my mind. Previously, I had been on Tegretol with disastrous effects (of which I've described all over this board throughout the last 3 or so years), and finally just said "no" and suffered from the migraines and concussions from the fainting until Verapamil entered my life.
>
> At the time, I was not receiving any help with my depression or other emotional 'issues'. I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
>
> I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
>
> I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
>
> I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> dove
Posted by katekite on May 3, 2002, at 18:26:01
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
Excellent post! I went off neurontin cold turkey and realized within a couple days that it had really affected my control of my outward expression of my own moods. I did feel more relaxed on it but it was also disinhibiting and because I was relaxed on it, I didn't notice.
It is interesting you bring up to be clear before starting what symptom, or problem you are treating. Very true. The other day I was in my pdocs office and complained about being depressed around my period, PMS. He said, oh, after we get my stimulant for ADD figured out, no problem, we'll take care of the PMS. Later I thought, wait a second..... I was only complaining because I have PMS right now..... I don't need more meds for a problem that's only a problem a couple days a month..... wow I might have accidently gotten myself a whole new drug by accident.
Pdocs often will want to treat all the problems because they are able to.
(This post is not meant at all, in any way, to imply that PMS is not a severe problem for some people.)
kate
Posted by Ron Hill on May 3, 2002, at 18:58:56
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
> Gingko Biloba affected me within an hour, and not in a positive manner. I found less fog--more clarity; but an incredible increase of irritability and a very low threshold for any minor inconvenience or irritant. I felt very tightly wound, ready to spring and watch my head pop-off!
--------------------------Dove,
Thank you very much for posting your experience with ginkgo biloba. I'm bipolar II and I take 600 mg/day Lithobid and 200 mg/day SAM-e. In general, this cocktail works great for me. However, once in a while, I become extremely irritable and I flash into a rage. I have come to the conclusion that this irritability is caused by something in my vitamin/herb regimen (which includes ginseng and ginkgo biloba) because when I skip these supplements for a day, the foul mood goes away.
I have been trying to figure out which vitamins and/or herbs are the culprits. Your post provided me with some valuable information in this respect. Thank you.
-- Ron
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:27:39
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you » Uppendown, posted by Ant-Rock on May 3, 2002, at 17:00:41
Hi Ant-Rock,
As far as I have been able to determine, with about 5 years of very intensive, daily involvment in these issues, virtually all of these meds have very similar impacts on the individual psyche. The physical impacts vary, as in some are motabilized through the liver, and can cause physiological problems such as liver failure... But my concern is why these meds are prescribed in the first place.. and to what extent our caregivers recognized the impacts of these meds on us. It is no secret that we endure very significant "side effects" from these meds... And as much as I believe that our caregivers mean only the best for us, they don't go through the "experiences" we do.. virtually all of the docs are "book learned". It is to their credit that they work so hard, spend so many hours trying to help us... but upon *what* do they base their advice.. their prescriptions to us ??? You need not take my "word" for any of this, just spend a couple days reading past posts on ANY mental health message board to get a feel for how many people are not doing "well" on these meds. Obviously a "refinement" is needed ! Go back weeks... months... years... ( this thread goes back to 99 ! ) .. you will see EXACTLY the same "complaints" ! Ya HAFTA ask, "why?" " What are the common denominators between all these people, spanning all this time??".
Nobody knows the "answer"... Nobody can tell you it is a "chemical imbalance" .. it is all still just unproven theory.. Yet so many are put on these powerful drugs, which alter their lives. Of that, there is little doubt. For some it is a definate "improvement", but for many, the results are "worse". You can determine this for yourself, easily... read these message boards... or review the results of clinical studies ( I'll send you URLs, if you want..) ..
My issue is solely " For *what* are these meds being prescribed?" .. I know some people *need* meds... but I also "see" very clearly that the impacts of taking them need to be recognized, and aknowledged. It ISN'T like you pop a pill, and your life is suddenly "better". "Better" is subjective, and comes with a "price"...
Please feel free to post to me if you want URLs for further research, or .. if you think I can add to your thoughts in any way..
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:57:04
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you » Uppendown, posted by katekite on May 3, 2002, at 18:26:01
Hi Kate,
Thank you for your kind words.. I really appreciate your insights... Really !
I've done a LOT of research into these issues... Once I was diagnosed, I *needed* to know what the basis was/were for what those various docs' pronouncements and advice was based upon. Because of my PTSD, I'm pretty suspiciuos by nature .. LOL!
I've spent hours talking with a great number of "professionals" in the mental health biz... I personally have been in pretty intensive "therapy", and fortunately had good people.. docs... I worked with. I have NO complaints with the "help" I got... but I do have honest and sincere questions about how most people are diagnosed and "treated". I sincerely believe, based on alot of time, effort and experience/investigation, that a very large percentage of the people currently on psychotropic drugs... not only *shouldn't* be on them... not only are being negatively impacted by those drugs... but in fact would be better "served" with other therapuetic approaches ! I don't say these things lightly! I say them out of very sincere concern. I have talked to very many people, for a long time now... and it disturbs me very much to see so much "unneccessary" suffering. As well intentioned as the caregivers may be, the impacts, on a daily basis, for so many people, is just so upsetting.. All I'm trying to do is to get people to *just THINK*.. HONESTLY... about what the sources of their problems and upset really are. I am also uncomfortable with societys' propensity for "quick fixes"... that this magic pill or that will "solve" the problems in their lives. If only that were true. But I've yet to see it.
And... I TOTALLY agree with you... I don't mean to diminish, in ANY way, the very real suffering we go through. Believe me, I really do know. I just see so many of us lead down a path that promises "solutions" that we all see are rarely "delivered".
Again, thank you for your thoughtful post...
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
Posted by Leighwit on May 4, 2002, at 11:08:30
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:57:04
Uppendown,
I think much of what you've written is unarguable. The problem is, IMO, that the "alternatives" are even less impressive. Those of us who have struggled with side effects and various degrees of efficacy in psychotropic medications for a number of years (over ten in my case) have most often (I presume) tried other treatment options.
Nutritional, herbal, psychotherapeutic, physical (exercise, acupuncture)and a host of other treatments have proven fruitless for me.
Have the medications done much better? Yes and no. At times, they have lifted me out of a very deep abyss, yet always with significant discomfort (side effects). At other times, they've been barely worth the cost of the side effects.
Overall, I'd say today's psychotropic drugs are mediocre at best. The insulin I take daily and have since childhood is incomparable to AD meds, yet I cannot help but compare them since I use them both every day of my life. One is an incredible blessing, the other an incredible compromise.
Are too many people taking these medications unnecessarily? Probably. But that's not the foremost issue, is it? People taking ADs who don't really need them, will in all likelihood discontinue them rather easily. First, they won't "hit the wall" with debilitating depression symptoms when they stop them. Second, they won't take them if they don't need them, because we all know that these drugs (by and large) stink. It's not like they're recreational drugs with an enjoyment factor. People who don't need ADs won't stay on them very long. They'll diagnose themselves and find better physicians with better and more appropriate therapies ~ because they're able to. Those that CAN, will. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. But I don't think they are significant in overall number.
Those of us who cannot function productively without some of these medications and yet are suffering daily because of their overall ineffectiveness and/or horrendous side effects are the more important category of people for whom we should be concerned. It is these people who have legitimate trouble helping themselves.
I guess it's all a matter of degree. Depressed people, however, regardless of their walks in life, seem unwilling or unable to stand up and scream for relief. To demand that our country put major clinical depression (actually, mental illness in general) in the top percentage of federally funded medical research. More drugs come down the pike without any real change in the quality of their performance. They're simply more tolerable (easier to take) than the older drugs and Pdocs love that. Patients, however, aren't jumping up and down with high praise for the SSRIs as opposed to the older drug categories ~ not those that have used them for more than a year or two. Why? Because more pharmaceuticals are not the answer until we better understand the cause(s)of various forms of mental illness. It's all about the quality and extent of the research. Garbage In/Garbage Out.
I didn't mean to come off as cynical. I merely think that we're covering a very, very broad topic here and sometimes it gets too verbose to really accomplish much.
>
>
> I have NO complaints with the "help" I got... but I do have honest and sincere questions about how most people are diagnosed and "treated". I sincerely believe, based on alot of time, effort and experience/investigation, that a very large percentage of the people currently on psychotropic drugs... not only *shouldn't* be on them... not only are being negatively impacted by those drugs... but in fact would be better "served" with other therapuetic approaches ! I don't say these things lightly! I say them out of very sincere concern. I have talked to very many people, for a long time now... and it disturbs me very much to see so much "unneccessary" suffering. As well intentioned as the caregivers may be, the impacts, on a daily basis, for so many people, is just so upsetting.. All I'm trying to do is to get people to *just THINK*.. HONESTLY... about what the sources of their problems and upset really are. I am also uncomfortable with societys' propensity for "quick fixes"... that this magic pill or that will "solve" the problems in their lives. If only that were true. But I've yet to see it.
>
> And... I TOTALLY agree with you... I don't mean to diminish, in ANY way, the very real suffering we go through. Believe me, I really do know. I just see so many of us lead down a path that promises "solutions" that we all see are rarely "delivered".
>
> Again, thank you for your thoughtful post...
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Uppendown
Posted by dove on May 4, 2002, at 13:59:21
In reply to Dove- Verapamil? » dove, posted by Cindylou on May 3, 2002, at 17:03:28
>
> I am also very intrigued by this Verapamil, and actually faxed your message to my pdoc.
>
> I was wondering if it had any side effects for you -- did it make you fatigued? Are you able to tolerate other mood stabilizers like Lithium without fatigue? I think my pdoc said that Verapamil is mainly for Bipolar I (I'm BPII), and that it just works for people who respond to Lithium (I wasn't able to tolerate Lithium due to the fatigue.)
>
>
Firstly, I must say that I have never received such positive responses to my Verapamil postings. I thank you for the time you've spent reading my posts and am speechless regarding the fact that you faxed my message to your p-doc! Not in a negative way, just the thought of a p-doc reading my ramblings seems too surreal, comedic and bizarre--all at the same time =o)Secondly, my p-docs (more than one) have never felt I would do well--at all--on Lithium, and even when I've inquired about giving it a short trial they all responded with definite "No way!". Which is weird, considering all the other meds they've been willing to experiment with and in such crazy combinations too!
Unfortunately, I don't recall the actual word-for-word (quote unquote) reasoning behind this decision other than the fact that they believed that my *very* negative experience with Tegretol was not promising for a positive response to Lithium.
Thirdly, I would need a full wash-out (in my p-doc's opinion) of all the other meds I was taking at the time in order to initiate the lithium.
Fourthly, they still disagreed on the dx of BPI, due to the fact that they could not pinpoint even one full-fledged manic episode. ADHD and Major Depressive Disorder (long-term on both accounts) seemed more likely and more pressing in their immediate deteriorative effects on my life. At one point, they thought that I could possibly have Ultra Rapid Cycling BP I or II or ? with the manic part being more of an agitated, frustrated, angry and animated mania.
As in, I felt no euphoria, no elation, just discontentment fueled by a little more than my usual amount brain energy. Furthermore, these episodes didn't persist longer than 24 hours, and usually lasted only part of the day.
Verapamil did cause some fatigue--if I remember correctly, and I'm really trying to--in the beginning. It can also slow down the digestive system, cause dry mouth, constipation, a need to watch how much fluid you're losing during the warmer months of the year or when working out.
Verapamil enabled me *to* exercise, and I doubled (at least doubled) my water and fluid intake, and I had the clarity of mind to start slow and find how hard my body could work and still feel good--feel better than good.
So, I was able to counteract many of the reported negative side-effects that sometimes accompany Verapamil. The only other "mood-stabilizers" I've been able to tolerate are klonopin and Neurontin, although, neither of those are the first-choice standards for their mood-stabilizing abilities (according to my p-docs).
I hope this isn't too much rambling, just trying to be very clear about my experiences.
dove
Posted by dove on May 4, 2002, at 14:13:36
In reply to Re: Gingko? Irritation/Clarity » dove, posted by Ron Hill on May 3, 2002, at 18:58:56
>
> However, once in a while, I become extremely irritable and I flash into a rage. I have come to the conclusion that this irritability is caused by something in my vitamin/herb regimen (which includes ginseng and ginkgo biloba) because when I skip these supplements for a day, the foul mood goes away.
>
>I was also taking a multivitamin that included little add-ons like chromium, gingko biloba, guarana, kava-kava, and ginseng. It definitively caused me agitation and I've not taken any multivitamin containing herbs since.
So, I would second your conclusions =o)
dove
Posted by dove on May 4, 2002, at 14:27:31
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:57:04
I have really only one point to make, which doesn't oppose yours, but does recognize the difference between broad and narrow.
These psychotropic meds will and do cause very serious side-effects, and these uncomfortable symptoms are often suffered by people throughout a good amount of time. I would counter this with the fact that the people I know who have schizophrenia *hate* their meds which cause them to be "flat" and often zombie-like, but they cannot function *whatsoever* without them. We would not recommend the discontinuation of these meds based on their unpleasant side-effects knowing that they will do themselves or others more harm without them.
For me, meds--even the ones I have found unpleasant--have kept me from doing myself bodily harm as I had done in the past without them. I hope to one day be med-free, but I also want to raise my family, remained married, be able to function on some sort of social degree; and not have scars all over my body, nor be hospitalized due to lame ODs, nor have mental and nervous breakdowns in my front yard.
Right here, right now, the meds are vital, and I cannot--will not battle another 10 years of bleeding misery and death without them. But my respect goes to you for your perspective, insights, and the gracious manner in which you expressed them. They were/are thought provoking and a good counterpoint, that aided me greatly in cementing my own view on my current med-taking =o)
dove
Posted by sl on May 4, 2002, at 14:48:47
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Dove, posted by Phil on May 3, 2002, at 6:28:40
> Always nice seeing your name. I just started on Gingko and bought the Twinlab time released. It seems to be helping and I haven't felt agitated. At least not more agitated than the Wellbutrin makes me.
*ding!* Yay, I finally found the ONE post from a person on Wellbutrin and Gingko together! And you didn't have a bad response!
(I'm actually rather surprised more people hadn't tried it.)
> I bought it from www.Vitacost.com ...their prices are low. I got my vitamins and G in 2 days. My brother ordered the same day I did.Hehehe, whenever I feel I can spend $30-$40 on vitamins, I order from Vitacost...just be careful when you're ordering 1 or 2 things ...figure out the total WITH shipping and compare price to your local drugstore, y'know? :)
> He lives in Vegas and got his at the same time.
*chuckle* Yup, they make good time, that's for sure. And I've had pretty good experiences with them too, never had'em forget or substitute anything strange either. :)
> Twinlab daily one caps: 60ea. from grocery stores here are about 16.00. I got the 180 count for 21.00.
Yay good deals! :)
sl
Posted by Morgana on May 10, 2002, at 0:50:39
In reply to Re: Dove- Verapamil? » Cindylou, posted by dove on May 4, 2002, at 13:59:21
Hi Dove,
May I say that some of your posts are quite refreshing! :o)~ (just referring to one of your responses...)
I currently take Verapamil along with Nardil and Lamictal. The combination seems to be working great for me.
The funny thing is, I started the Nardil in the hopes that it would help prevent my migraines - which it seems to be doing (thank all the gods and goddesses) - what I didn't know was how well it would work on my depression and social phobia. It works great!
I had taken Verapamil once before for sex headaches (the ones after where you feel like your head is going to explode if it isn't totally parallel with the floor) and it worked. But there was too much stress/depression at the time to know if it helped with other things.
This time we added it because of the return of the sex headaches and to try and get at the migraines. Seems it is helping in other ways too.
It is somewhat stimulating (I take the slow release kind) so I take it in the morning. A great time to have a little stimulation. It is definitely helping with clarity. My memory has come back! I was resigned to everyhing just falling out the back as soon as more came in (of my brain that is). I can't say for sure if the energy is the Nardil or Verapamil or both, but whichever it is works great. I am getting back to my organized and efficient self. I must have paper to write on at all times. My brain is definitely on, it never goes off, but with lots of positive thinking rather than negative. I know this sounds a little funny, but the constipation side effect is having a normalizing effect for me, which is really nice.
I would definitely recommend it.
Hope all goes well with you and you find the perfect replacement for Verapamil (or try it again successfully),
Morgana, BPII - Nardil, Lamictal & Verapamil
P.S. Have you ever considered an MAOI (that's what Nardil is)? I don't have any of the side effects that other, more 'sophisticated', AD's caused. The only pain is the diet, but I was already adhering to it due to the migraines. It was easy for me to do. Don't know if you have migraines still, but I haven't had a migraine in 4 weeks thanks to the Nardil. I'm keepin my fingers and toes crossed. (Only been on it for 8 weeks)
Posted by shrimp on June 14, 2003, at 19:57:39
In reply to Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 18:03:47
Ellen,
I had been taking 400mg. Wellbutrin as an adjunct to Zoloft. Neither was working, so i am now on Nardil 60mg., along with the wellbutrrin. Very shaky, anxious, edgy, so i've just reduced the W to 300mg. In the past, it's always wroded well with an ssri, but only for about a month, and you have to get over the first week of wanting to kill anyone in your way. I've been complaining to my p-doc for years about the dumbing down, the difficultyl with word retrieval, and i think that was the depression, not the treatment, but i could be wrong. Anyhow, the nardil with W is working well, I'll never believe that i am back to my optimal level of brain function, but this is the closest i've been. I've just started this combo, so check back with me in 3 weeks.
> Howdy.
>
> I have been on wellbutrin/bupropion for about two years
> boosted to 300 mg daily awhile back. It's working. Sad/
> grief/pain stops at my feet, doesn't go to the bowels of
> the earth anymore. Bad days dip, not destroy.
>
> But, as I said elsewhere, it makes me
> stupid ... I lose about 20 IQ points. This is better
> than the word retrieval loss from the other medications
> (Prozac, zoloft, effexor, paxil...) because I write/edit
> for a living.
>
> But dammit, I miss my smarts. *grin* Yeah, "stupid" is better than
> suicidal, but... I'm worried about long-term
> brain damage, frankly. I have searched and searched and
> cannot find any research available on the web about the
> long-term effects of wellbutrin on intelligence -- or any
> other antidepressant's impact on intelligence/cognitive
> ability long-term.
>
> *Sudden grin*
>
> Hey, maybe I should write a research grant proposal...
>
> Anybody out there know about information I've missed?
>
> ellen
>
Posted by shrimp on June 14, 2003, at 20:02:05
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
It's hard to differentiate sometimes between the symptoms of depression and the side effects of meds. I am currently on Nardil plus Wellbutrin, first thing that has worked in years.
Posted by shrimp on June 14, 2003, at 20:09:14
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Ponder on April 26, 2002, at 11:43:53
I had the same question, and my pdoc said that my brain was not at all permanently altered, it was just the depression. I only consider my depression alleviated when the cognitive problems dissapate. That happened to me for about a month on the SSRI's, then usual pattern, tired and dumb. I'm now on 400 Wellbutrin and 60 Nardil, and it seems to be helping. I've been too afraid to take the IQ test, it would just validate how depressed i was, but i think i am going to take it now. I've lowered the Wellbutrin to 300 mg., but i'm still getting the twitches, could this be related to Parkinsons's or the dopamine?
> Couldn't resist joining this thread. I, too, am a professional writer with concerns about intellectual functioning and word-find abilities.
>
> I have been on Wellbutrin for decades (literally). It never occurred to me that WB might have cognitive side-effects. What I find frustrating is the difficulty of ascribing such effects. After all, my bipolar depression makes me dumb as a stump. Some people believe that ECT leaves you with some permanent impairment (maybe). Then there are the drugs.
>
> I hate the thought of tampering with a combination of treatments that seem to be working at the time, but this discussion on WB is causing me to reconsider. My other treatments (Lamictal and VNS) are activating enough that DCing the WB may not be too bad an idea.
>
> Does anyone else wonder about drug side-effects vs. depression as the cause of cognitive difficulties? I mean, not just during the depression, but a kind of ongoing alteration in brain function from the illness?
>
>
Posted by piglette on October 19, 2003, at 22:49:50
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by shrimp on June 14, 2003, at 20:09:14
As for me, I took Paxil for 4 years before quitting last year for financial reasons. I must say Paxil was a godsend for me and made me more brilliant and focused than ever before. I had better ideas than before and was able to bring them to fruition, which was usually a problem before. (It also helped that my boss was constantly behind my back, or how to say it...)
You see, now I am on Wellbutrin and also struggle with finding the right word or right expression. I actually hadn't thought about this connection before. Thanks for bringing it up.
I have irritation, anger and even anxiety and depression since I started Wellbutrin (about 3 weeks ago). The most confounding thing about it is that it started out very well, and now I have all these symptoms. True, I also take gingko biloba, which I started long time ago. Perhaps I should decrease the dose? I take 2x2 capsules and that might be too much. I also take St. John's Wort, which probably doesn't interact with the Wellbutrin. Plus SAM-e whose withdrawal I feel immediately if I forget to take it. Plus 5HTP, which is nice, but mostly I notice it also only if I did NOT take it.
The only bad thing about Paxil as far as I can remember was that it obliterated my libido. It is true that Wellbutrin doesn't have this effect but if it causes you lose your IQ or creativity that is equally bad in my case.
best,
piglette
ps. I was taken aback originally by the 'quiz' but did it anyway. I am glad to see it works as the audience seems to be nicely 'filtered' on this message board. The sheer fact that people notice their IQ diminishing means that they had one once :-)
Posted by piglette on October 19, 2003, at 23:31:37
In reply to Re: New to this Whole Wellbutrin Thing, posted by piglette on October 19, 2003, at 22:49:50
Well, I doubt it but if you cut your pill into half you laso might have noticed the numbing effect on the tongue. It got me thinking: are antidepressants (emotional 'painkillers') and real painkillers somehow related? This rather far-fetched theory may be supported by the recent finding that the pain center and the 'rejection center' in the brain are very close. If that is the case, how about popping a Tylenol after you go through some painful experience of rejection? Perhaps if the initial feeling of pain is toned down by a painkiller, the memory of the event will also be less painful and might cause less aggrevation. Dr Bob and others, what do you think?
piglette
Posted by shrimp on October 20, 2003, at 22:26:57
In reply to Re: New to this Whole Wellbutrin Thing, posted by piglette on October 19, 2003, at 22:49:50
Oh Piglette, I feel your pain. I'm on Nardil and Wellbutrin, i was actually on 450 Wellie a day, and i honestly thought i was getting alzheimers. And i used to be smart and have a brain too. God, i couldn't even remember my own phone number at times, and i am not exxagerating. Who cares if you feel better if the trade off is your intelligence. Spoke with my pdoc, and he said that i may be overmedicated, i had needed it to recover from a suicidal depression. So i gradually went from 450 to 150 and the cognitive problems all but disappeared!!! Plus, the Wellbutrin was making me so incredibly anxious that i couldn't sleep at night. hope this helps.
> As for me, I took Paxil for 4 years before quitting last year for financial reasons. I must say Paxil was a godsend for me and made me more brilliant and focused than ever before. I had better ideas than before and was able to bring them to fruition, which was usually a problem before. (It also helped that my boss was constantly behind my back, or how to say it...)
>
> You see, now I am on Wellbutrin and also struggle with finding the right word or right expression. I actually hadn't thought about this connection before. Thanks for bringing it up.
>
> I have irritation, anger and even anxiety and depression since I started Wellbutrin (about 3 weeks ago). The most confounding thing about it is that it started out very well, and now I have all these symptoms. True, I also take gingko biloba, which I started long time ago. Perhaps I should decrease the dose? I take 2x2 capsules and that might be too much. I also take St. John's Wort, which probably doesn't interact with the Wellbutrin. Plus SAM-e whose withdrawal I feel immediately if I forget to take it. Plus 5HTP, which is nice, but mostly I notice it also only if I did NOT take it.
>
> The only bad thing about Paxil as far as I can remember was that it obliterated my libido. It is true that Wellbutrin doesn't have this effect but if it causes you lose your IQ or creativity that is equally bad in my case.
>
> best,
> piglette
> ps. I was taken aback originally by the 'quiz' but did it anyway. I am glad to see it works as the audience seems to be nicely 'filtered' on this message board. The sheer fact that people notice their IQ diminishing means that they had one once :-)
Posted by shrimp on October 20, 2003, at 22:35:03
In reply to Wellbutrin Thing - is it also a painkiller?, posted by piglette on October 19, 2003, at 23:31:37
Piglette, in fact antideppressants are commonly prescribed for people with chronic pain, lupus, fibromyalgia, so yes, they do help. i think it is the ssri group that is used. Anyhow, i'm glad you posted. Can you give me the location or name of the test? i'm actually afraid to take it, since i have had this really traumatic rejection from my boyfriend of 5 years, i can feel the depression creeping back. and i had just recovered. how do i keep myself from going back in? Does the Sam-e help? i am somewhat limited with adjuncts as i am on an MAO. Have you ever tried those? i have really bad atypical depression, and they have really been helpful.
> Well, I doubt it but if you cut your pill into half you laso might have noticed the numbing effect on the tongue. It got me thinking: are antidepressants (emotional 'painkillers') and real painkillers somehow related? This rather far-fetched theory may be supported by the recent finding that the pain center and the 'rejection center' in the brain are very close. If that is the case, how about popping a Tylenol after you go through some painful experience of rejection? Perhaps if the initial feeling of pain is toned down by a painkiller, the memory of the event will also be less painful and might cause less aggrevation. Dr Bob and others, what do you think?
>
> piglette
Posted by lammmy on November 25, 2004, at 17:33:30
In reply to Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 18:03:47
Oh my goodness! This is like a weight off my shoulders, I have only been on WB for about 1.5 months, all I have felt was jittery, anxious. Loss of all motivation and sex drive, I can motivate myself to go to work now, but it's not geniune motivation. Things I used to crave to do all day long, I now cannot be bothered to do, even though I know I used to love doing them. The dumbness, hugely noticable as I am on the phone all day helping clients with software problems...I forget so many things even a minute after I say them...not good. I'm just glad to know I;m not just imagining these things. I Was kind of scared to go tell the Dr. this but now I know I better before it's too late :). Thanks so much.
Now, about this Verapamil...I have looked it up on teh web, but could not find anything related to it being an AD. Can anyone fill me in on this. I REALLY would like some advice on just how to ask the Dr. about it. I don't think he would appreciate me telling him I think I should be on this drug just because I read it on the internet. As far as I'm concerned, it HAS to be better than WB
Thanks-lammmy
This is the end of the thread.
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