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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on October 25, 2004, at 1:26:09
got a script for both, as I have been doctor shopping lately ha ha!
To get back the Nardil euphoric effects, who deems the better agent: Lamictal or Amitriptyline??
I personally think 200mg Lamictal will be the best option.
But I have been very randomly known to make mistakes. very randomly!
One of them is listening to Quack doctors!OK my friends, give this crazy man your opinions!
Ace
Nardil- 60
Zyprexa- 2.5
Xanax- 2(Gabapentin 1200mg has been ceased after 4 weeks for doing nothing except maybe help sleep)
"Blessed are we to suffer of the mind....the more we endure the more our souls become robust"Ace...2004
Posted by smith562 on October 25, 2004, at 7:40:10
In reply to NARDIL with LAMICTAL or AMITRPTYLINE????, posted by ace on October 25, 2004, at 1:26:09
Hey Ace,
I have been on and off nardil for 7 years (have panic, anxiety, depression and family history of BP). I have tried *everything* to try to augment nardil ... saw Dr. Quitken even (he is the nardil God .... all the early studies were performed by him ... not Dr. Liebowitz). I really enjoyed being euphoric and carefree for that period of time I was on nardil ... but I was also a bit hyper and immature and lost some friendships.
A decent combo was taking nardil down from 60mg to 45mg (with resolution of sexual side effects, weight gain) and adding lamictal 200mg (also .5mg of klonopin and ambien). Work really well, but unfortunately my liver enzymes were elevated (and anticonvulsant and hydrozine can cause hepatitis). My best combo was lithium 450, nardil 45 and klonopin .5, and caffeine for energy .... lost weight, no insomnia, memory improved. I lost the euphoria, but was down to earth and making solid friendships.
The Other Nardil King,
Smith562
Posted by Tepiaca on October 25, 2004, at 19:01:36
In reply to Re: The Other Nardil King » ace, posted by smith562 on October 25, 2004, at 7:40:10
> Hey Ace,
>
> I have been on and off nardil for 7 years (have panic, anxiety, depression and family history of BP). I have tried *everything* to try to augment nardil ... saw Dr. Quitken even (he is the nardil God .... all the early studies were performed by him ... not Dr. Liebowitz). I really enjoyed being euphoric and carefree for that period of time I was on nardil ... but I was also a bit hyper and immature and lost some friendships.
>
> A decent combo was taking nardil down from 60mg to 45mg (with resolution of sexual side effects, weight gain) and adding lamictal 200mg (also .5mg of klonopin and ambien). Work really well, but unfortunately my liver enzymes were elevated (and anticonvulsant and hydrozine can cause hepatitis). My best combo was lithium 450, nardil 45 and klonopin .5, and caffeine for energy .... lost weight, no insomnia, memory improved. I lost the euphoria, but was down to earth and making solid friendships.
>
> The Other Nardil King,
>
> Smith562Another king of Nardil ? mmm ,I guess a championship heavyweight fight is required here =)
I have a question for you
what exactly did the lithium do for you in combination with the Nardil ?Do you think the lithium/Nardil could do the same thing that the Depakote/NArdil ??
So ,are you feeling great now ? married , with friends , a job ?
Thank you !
Posted by ace on October 27, 2004, at 1:31:39
In reply to Re: The Other Nardil King ?ace, posted by smith562 on October 25, 2004, at 7:40:10
> Hey Ace,
>
> I have been on and off nardil for 7 years (have panic, anxiety, depression and family history of BP). I have tried *everything* to try to augment nardil ... saw Dr. Quitken even (he is the nardil God .... all the early studies were performed by him ... not Dr. Liebowitz). I really enjoyed being euphoric and carefree for that period of time I was on nardil ... but I was also a bit hyper and immature and lost some friendships.
OK. with that period of euphoria, how did it stop?? Did you change drugs or lower dose....could you still regain those effects?. When Nardil is working 100% I am trying to crack oin to every girl!@! Its so good, I study so much too!
>
> A decent combo was taking nardil down from 60mg to 45mg (with resolution of sexual side effects, weight gain) and adding lamictal 200mg (also .5mg of klonopin and ambien). Work really wellDid it produce a euphoric feeling?
, but unfortunately my liver enzymes were elevated (and anticonvulsant and hydrozine can cause hepatitis). My best combo was lithium 450, nardil 45 and klonopin .5, and caffeine for energy .... lost weight, no insomnia, memory improved. I lost the euphoria, but was down to earth and making solid friendships.What is your best bets to get the Nardil euphoria back....I remember when it hit me...It was breathtaking, i was so confident and happy and full of spirit and love and energy. The I changed to Clomipramine- what a fool i was!!!
Clomipramine didn't work- so I quickly got back on Nardil and subsequently suffered a mild serotonin syndrome.
After that Nardil kicked in again better than ever....then within a week it drifted away, then when I added Zyprexa, and on the day I was on a train and took 1mg Xanax, it kicked in like majic!!!!! But this lasted only around 3-4 weeks, and for the past 2 years or a bit less, i have been trying to get that euphoria back.
I must emphasis Nardil still definately helps me a great deal....
Thanks dude@!!
Ace
Nardil- 60mg
Zyprexa- 2.5
Amitriptyline 75mg
Xanax 2mg>
> The Other Nardil King,
>
> Smith562
Posted by smith562 on October 27, 2004, at 7:48:08
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!! » smith562, posted by ace on October 27, 2004, at 1:31:39
> OK. with that period of euphoria, how did it stop?? Did you change drugs or lower dose....could you still regain those effects?. When Nardil is working 100% I am trying to crack oin to every girl!@! Its so good, I study so much too!
I don't think I ever got the tremendous euphoria I had the first 6 months I took nardil. I retrospect, I was very mildly hypomanic at times and wasn't making great decision/risky behavior. The best thing I found to augment the euphoria effects was plain old coffee or something like provigil.
>
>
> >
> > A decent combo was taking nardil down from 60mg to 45mg (with resolution of sexual side effects, weight gain) and adding lamictal 200mg (also .5mg of klonopin and ambien). Work really well
>
> Did it produce a euphoric feeling?No. More like normal level emotions and feeling .. not high or low.
>
> , but unfortunately my liver enzymes were elevated (and anticonvulsant and hydrozine can cause hepatitis). My best combo was lithium 450, nardil 45 and klonopin .5, and caffeine for energy .... lost weight, no insomnia, memory improved. I lost the euphoria, but was down to earth and making solid friendships.
>
> What is your best bets to get the Nardil euphoria back....I remember when it hit me...It was breathtaking, i was so confident and happy and full of spirit and love and energy. The I changed to Clomipramine- what a fool i was!!!
>
> Clomipramine didn't work- so I quickly got back on Nardil and subsequently suffered a mild serotonin syndrome.
>
> After that Nardil kicked in again better than ever....then within a week it drifted away, then when I added Zyprexa, and on the day I was on a train and took 1mg Xanax, it kicked in like majic!!!!! But this lasted only around 3-4 weeks, and for the past 2 years or a bit less, i have been trying to get that euphoria back.Sorry dude, but I was never able to get it back.
>
> I must emphasis Nardil still definately helps me a great deal....
>
> Thanks dude@!!
>
> Ace
> Nardil- 60mg
> Zyprexa- 2.5
> Amitriptyline 75mg
> Xanax 2mg
>
>
>
> >
> > The Other Nardil King,
> >
> > Smith562
>
>Wish you the best of luck! Hang in there ACE!
The Vice President Nardil King,
Smith562
PS do you know Spike?
Posted by ravenstorm on October 27, 2004, at 11:35:45
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!! » smith562, posted by smith562 on October 27, 2004, at 7:48:08
I have a question about nardil for all you champs and also anyone else using the drug successfully. How much weight do most people gain? And (Okay I guess I have more than one question) how bad are sexual side effects? What is the discontinuation syndrome if you stop taking it? Do you get sick trying to start it? (I get really sick starting and stopping SSRIs) What about low blood pressure? Can you still exercise? Does nardil cause that thing that you fall asleep in the middle of the day like I've heard about with other MAOI's? Is the dosage really figured out by your weight?
Thanks
Posted by ace on October 27, 2004, at 23:13:22
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!!, posted by ravenstorm on October 27, 2004, at 11:35:45
> I have a question about nardil for all you champs and also anyone else using the drug successfully. How much weight do most people gain?
Some people none..others a little. But nowhere near that of Zyprexa. Weight gain is manageble too, with Nardil.
And (Okay I guess I have more than one question) how bad are sexual side effects?
Initially very bad...total inorgasmia (for a lot of us, at least), but they go in time. Also, there are drugs u can take to reverse these effects at the satrt of Nardil therapy...
What is the discontinuation syndrome if you stop taking it?
For me, a bit of insomnia and that was it. An i tapered down VERY fast. So do it slow and you should be OK. Its nowhere near as bad as SSRI withdrawal.
Do you get sick trying to start it?Maybe a little transigent nausea, but not a great deal.
(I get really sick starting and stopping SSRIs) What about low blood pressure? Can you still exercise?For sure!
Does nardil cause that thing that you fall asleep in the middle of the day like I've heard about with other MAOI's?No, but it can cause sedation, pronounced seadtion or insomnia in the first few weeks of treatment. I never have a sleep problem with Nardil.
Is the dosage really figured out by your weight?
Sort of. They state 1mg/1kg of weight. Well i'm 90kg now and on 60, and I notice no difference.
But I do think the minimum therapeutic dose is 60mg for 4 weeks. If this fails ram it up to 90mg...
>
> Thanks
No problemo cowboy!!Ace
Posted by Questionmark on October 28, 2004, at 6:02:51
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!!, posted by ravenstorm on October 27, 2004, at 11:35:45
> I have a question about nardil for all you champs and also anyone else using the drug successfully. How much weight do most people gain? And (Okay I guess I have more than one question) how bad are sexual side effects? What is the discontinuation syndrome if you stop taking it? Do you get sick trying to start it? (I get really sick starting and stopping SSRIs) What about low blood pressure? Can you still exercise? Does nardil cause that thing that you fall asleep in the middle of the day like I've heard about with other MAOI's? Is the dosage really figured out by your weight?
>
> Thanks
"How much weight do most people gain?"Some people (like myself, of course, who WISHES to gain weight [isn't that how it always works?] gain very little to none, while others happen to gain a lot. It seems to vary a lot more than with other drugs like Zyprexa and Remeron (almost always causes considerable weight gain) and SSRIs (cause a slight loss or gain in weight, or nothing). If you resist the carbohydrate cravings that can occur you should be okay.
"And (Okay I guess I have more than one question) how bad are sexual side effects?"
Horrendous. (Can gradually subside with time though.)
"What is the discontinuation syndrome if you stop taking it?"Very similar to SSRI withdrawal, but the depression seems to come on a good deal faster than with SSRI withdrawal. Diarrhea, anxiety, deep depression, insomnia, MAJor REM rebound with vivid dreams and nightmares (typically), and other symptoms are fairly common consequences of discontinuation, and are those that i experienced. Since starting a little over a year ago (generally 60mg), i have never gone off for more than a few days though, so i do not know how long the withdrawal lasts or how severe it is after time.
"Do you get sick trying to start it?
(I get really sick starting and stopping SSRIs)"Sometimes, somewhat. i did not. Is definitely not as bad as SSRIs in the arena, as a general rule.
"What about low blood pressure? Can you still exercise?"
i never had a problem with my blood pressure being too low (i.e., it's been lower than before Nardil but has never caused problems). i've had no problems exercising either (no more than usual anyway- hah). This (hypotension) seems to be largely a dose-related phenomenon, but is not too too common.
"Does nardil cause that thing that you fall asleep in the middle of the day like I've heard about with other MAOI's?"
Yes. In my experience it does not even compare with Parnate, however. Also, i have come to the conclusion that this side effect only occurs if i take two pills in the morning rather than spreading them out.
"Is the dosage really figured out by your weight?"
To my knowledge, few doctors use this method of dosing Nardil anymore. i think it's a ridiculous method anyway. Yes, there may be a relatively consistent proportion of MAO-inhibition to Nardil dose, but people's body chemistries are different. Various dosages of medication (or ratios of drug to body weight) are appropriate/ effective for different people, and i see no reason why this should be any different with Nardil.
Finally, insomnia is also a huge problem with some people on Nardil, while it is not a problem at all for others (i'm in this latter category). Some people also seem to get bad edema, while most people (i believe) don't get the problem at all (i also never have).
i am one of those fortunate people who have been truly blessed by Nardil. It has been a miraculous drug for me, and may have very well saved my life (at least for the time being).
(Post Post: wow, i've just realized from typing this that the development of a particular side effect from Nardil really seems to vary a lot.)
Posted by ravenstorm on October 28, 2004, at 10:11:16
In reply to Answers to Nardil Questions » ravenstorm, posted by Questionmark on October 28, 2004, at 6:02:51
Posted by ravenstorm on October 28, 2004, at 16:57:33
In reply to Answers to Nardil Questions » ravenstorm, posted by Questionmark on October 28, 2004, at 6:02:51
I could not tell from your post. Have you tried both nardil and parnate?
Did the sexual side effects ever get better for you?
Did you ever consider parnate instead which is suppossed to have less sexual side effects?
Thanks again.
Posted by Questionmark on October 29, 2004, at 4:32:23
In reply to Re: more questions for questionmark, posted by ravenstorm on October 28, 2004, at 16:57:33
> I could not tell from your post. Have you tried both nardil and parnate?
>Both, yes. Parnate before Nardil (according to my doctor's wishes). i was on Parnate for about... 3 months. It did not suit me well at all. It made me horribly horribly emotional, and consequentially horribly horribly depressed (to put it in short, simple terms), while something like Nardil (and SSRIs) puts a damper on my emotions-- a ceiling on the negative emotions but not so much/ not always on the positive ones (as opposed to the SSRIs which put a short ceiling on both positive and negative emotions). It was terrible for me. i have a HUGE problem with regret and all the time and opportunities that i have wasted, and Parnate made this SO much more pervasive and painful. Nardil does the complete opposite for me. Anyway, this, of course, just happens to be my experience. Many people-- especially those without significant anxiety (& even some with) find Parnate more effective for their depression than Nardil.
> Did the sexual side effects ever get better for you?
>It's kind of hard to say, since it's been such a gradual process. But i'm pretty sure that they have, yes. Yeah, actually, i would probably say a considerable amount, but still not near what "normal" (pre-Nardil) was. Also, one thing in praise of Parnate-- it gave me probably the greatest, raging libido i have ever had (probably even more than me at 14) (i'm 24 presently).
> Did you ever consider parnate instead which is suppossed to have less sexual side effects?
>(Answered).
> Thanks again.
No problem.
Posted by ravenstorm on October 29, 2004, at 16:42:04
In reply to Re: more questions for questionmark » ravenstorm, posted by Questionmark on October 29, 2004, at 4:32:23
Wow, so there was really a big difference for you between the meds. I can really relate to the regrets issue, so that is definitely something for me to keep in mind in terms of parnate vs nardil. Although, as we all know, we don't know until we try (or suffer, depending on how you look at it). I haven't taken a WB in two days and I am still crawling out of my skin. I am going to be way pissed off if stopping the med doesn't stop the anxiety (ie it has triggered a big anxiety problem), since my anxiety was under control before I added the WB.
Thanks again for your input. I guess sooner or later I will just have to bite the bullet and try the "next thing". But I'm too wacked out from WB to even consider that at the moment.
Posted by smith562 on October 29, 2004, at 17:53:52
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!!, posted by ravenstorm on October 27, 2004, at 11:35:45
> I have a question about nardil for all you champs and also anyone else using the drug successfully. How much weight do most people gain?
I went from about 180 to 210 (I am a male) .... it is secondary to carbohydrate cravings/hypoglycemia. Nardil inhibits the liver from producing enough glucose to fuel the body and brain, thus most people get intense sugar craving. The gain is dose dependant. Some weight gain is also from edema/fluid retention.
And (Okay I guess I have more than one question) how bad are sexual side effects?
unable to ejaculate and maintain an erection .... libdo is low, but not as bad as an SSRI due to nardils pro dopamine properties
What is the discontinuation syndrome if you stop taking it?
a gradual return of the depression (very slow ... take several weeks for the MAO to regenerate)
Do you get sick trying to start it? (I get really sick starting and stopping SSRIs)No
What about low blood pressure?
Mild orthostatic hypotension
Can you still exercise?
Yes
Does nardil cause that thing that you fall asleep in the middle of the day like I've heard about with other MAOI's?
Yes, it is like many prodopamine agents (namely the parkinson's medications) that can cause moderate daytime somnolence .... it always hit me around 4 pm
Is the dosage really figured out by your weight?
Sort of ... I think the studies say the best way to determine the correct dose to measure the platelet MAO inhibition .... if above 80%, that is a suffient dose
>
> ThanksGood luck ... "MAOIs are the atomic bomb of antidepressants!"
Smith
Posted by ravenstorm on October 29, 2004, at 20:28:38
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!! » ravenstorm, posted by smith562 on October 29, 2004, at 17:53:52
Well, thanks for the information. I have to say, though, you all must be really really euphoric/happy on nardil not to care about weight gain and sexual disfunction. I think I will try my last remaining drugs outside the MAOI class before giving up on ever having a sex life again. Also, since I'm female, I have to pretty much give up on the thought of ever having children if I start an MAOI.
Wow, what a trade off. Sigh. I wish nardil had a more benign weight and sex side effect profile like parnate.
Posted by smith562 on October 30, 2004, at 3:29:27
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!!, posted by ravenstorm on October 29, 2004, at 20:28:38
Well, I have never been able to stay on nardil for more that 6 months due to the weight gain, insomnia and sexual dysfunction. What I have found working as well is
zoloft
half dose lithium augmentation
klonopin
Coffee for energy
ExerciseEveryday at least one person states I look great and have lost weight. I sleep normal now. And I think the high dose dopamine made me hypomanic. Now my relationships are calmer, less intense but stable. I think I found the nardil alternative.
Smith
If you really want the nardil "high", just add in wellbutrin ... but to me, I was acting to crazy/hypo
> Well, thanks for the information. I have to say, though, you all must be really really euphoric/happy on nardil not to care about weight gain and sexual disfunction. I think I will try my last remaining drugs outside the MAOI class before giving up on ever having a sex life again. Also, since I'm female, I have to pretty much give up on the thought of ever having children if I start an MAOI.
>
>
> Wow, what a trade off. Sigh. I wish nardil had a more benign weight and sex side effect profile like parnate.
Posted by sfy on October 30, 2004, at 11:27:14
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!!, posted by ravenstorm on October 29, 2004, at 20:28:38
> Well, thanks for the information. I have to say, though, you all must be really really euphoric/happy on nardil not to care about weight gain and sexual disfunction. I think I will try my last remaining drugs outside the MAOI class before giving up on ever having a sex life again. Also, since I'm female, I have to pretty much give up on the thought of ever having children if I start an MAOI.
>
>
> Wow, what a trade off. Sigh. I wish nardil had a more benign weight and sex side effect profile like parnate.As with all meds YMMV, but just because a drug causes male sexual dysfunction is no indication that it will have a similiar effect on women.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 15:05:53
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!! » ravenstorm, posted by sfy on October 30, 2004, at 11:27:14
I take Nardil, am a woman, and have had some anorgasmia at first. I found that it passes within a few months, thank goodness.
And the pregnancy issue, sigh. My OB-GYN is a bit freaked that I am on it. She would want me to stop it for sure. I have started to talk to my pdoc for "what-if" meds in that case, just to feel prepared. From what I understand, the risks are greatest in the third trimester, so I feel that getting pregnant while on it is an acceptable risk. I would then immediately begin tapering in order to discontinue it.
gg
Posted by ravenstorm on November 2, 2004, at 12:42:48
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!!, posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 15:05:53
The reading I have done indicates birth defects chances and so first trimester on an MAOI would be a big no, no. I think I found this on Dr. Ivan Goldbergs depression central.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 3, 2004, at 1:19:41
In reply to Re: I AM THE AUSSIE NARDIL CHAMP!!!, posted by ravenstorm on November 2, 2004, at 12:42:48
Hmmm, it's listed as pregnancy category "C", which means that animal studies show adverse fetal effects, but no controlled studies have been done in humans. It's important, then, to weigh the risks and benefits to the mother about continuing the meds.
Of course if it were me, I would start tapering as soon as I found out I was pregnant. The only meds I would worry about not taking at all if of child bearing age and not preventing pregnancy are those that fall into Pregnancy categories D and beyond. Category X is right out.
gg
This is the end of the thread.
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